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4 Pinocchios for Carson’s claim about a section of the Koran

cigaretteman

HB King
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“Taqiyya is a component of Shia that allows, and even encourages you to lie to achieve your goals.”

— Dr. Ben Carson, interview with The Hill newspaper, Sept. 20, 2015

Carson, a neurosurgeon seeking the GOP presidential nomination, caused a stir when he declared on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that he could not support a Muslim becoming president.

In a follow-up interview with The Hill, he asserted that he “did not believe Sharia [law] is consistent with the constitution of this country.” He said he could make an exception if the Muslim running for office “publicly rejected all the tenants of Sharia [Islamic law] and lived a life consistent with that.”

But then Carson added he was concerned about something called “taqiyya.” As he put it, “Taqiyya is a component of Shia that allows, and even encourages you to lie to achieve your goals.” (This is how the quote appeared in the Hill newspaper, but “Shia” may be a typo for “Sharia.”)

In other words, he appeared to be saying that this tenet of Islam offered some kind of loophole that would allow the Muslim to lie about his or her religious beliefs in order to pursue other objectives. Is this the case?

The Facts
If you scroll across the Internet, or just stick “taqiyya” into a Twitter search, you will stumble across many videos and articles from groups hostile to Islam arguing that “taqiyya” is central to Islam and permits a Muslim to lie with impunity to nonbelievers. The argument largely stems from two parts of the Koran:

“Whoever expresses disbelief in God after having accepted belief [will suffer greatly] – except him who is forced while his heart is still at peace in belief” (16:106)

“Let not the believers take unbelievers for their allies in preference to believers. Whoever does this has no connection with God, unless you but guard yourselves against them as a precaution.” (3:28)

But experts in Islamic law say that these Internet scholars have completely corrupted the meaning of the words.

The word “taqiyya” derives from the Arabic words for “piety” and “fear of God” and indicates when a person is in a state of caution, said Khaled Abou El Fadl, a professor of law at the University of California at Los Angeles and a leading authority on Islam.

Essentially, the Koran suggests that a person who faces religious persecution can withhold the identity of their faith in order to avoid bodily harm or death. The concept was particularly embraced by Shiites, who took steps to hide their religious beliefs from the majority Sunnis. But some Sunnis also practiced taqiyya, particularly the Moriscos, Muslims who were forced to convert to Catholicism in Spain during the 1500s.

The concept is also not unknown to other religions. Jews in Spain during the Inquisition also pretended to convert to Catholicism.

“Yes, it is permissible to hide the fact you are Muslim” if a person is under threat, “as long as it does not involve hurting another person,” Abou El Fadl said. “But there is no concept that would encourage a Muslim to lie to pursue a goal. That is a complete invention. Any Muslim is raised on the idea that lying is a sin.”

“It is a dispensation within some aspects of Shia law, which was developed out of the experience of a persecuted religious minority,” said Omid Safi, director of the Duke University Islamic Studies Center. “In brief, it states to value human life over declaration of faith. It is the proverbial question: If a Shia is being persecuted, and someone holds a gun to your head asking ‘are you a Shia?’ you are allowed to say ‘no’ in order to save a human life.”

Another expert on Islamic law, Noah Feldman of Harvard Law School, agreed that Carson’s comment was “very much oversimplified to the point of misrepresentation.” As Feldman put it, “taqiyya is dissimulation when one is being oppressed or tortured or having one’s views banned, a bit like Jesuit dispensation to lie under oath when your life is in danger.”

Safi said “the Taqiyya conversation is today part and parcel of the Islamophobic attack against American Muslims,” in which no matter what a Muslim says, he or she can’t be trusted.

“If an American Muslim (or Muslim more generally) says that they want to kill Americans, we take them at face value,” said Safi as an example of the Catch-22. “If an American Muslim (or Muslims more generally) says that they are committed to American democratic principles and pluralism, we state that they are of course lying, and hoping to achieve nefarious goals.”

Hussein Ibish, senior resident scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute, said that the claim made little sense because Islam is a proselytizing religion, like Christianity. “You’re supposed to preach it from the rooftops and the minarets” in order to gain adherents, not keep the religion a secret, he said. Advocates of the alternative version of taqiyya have “dragged a rather obscure and marginal concept out of the corner” to make broad-brush accusations against Muslims, he said.

Abou El Fadl said it “amazes me” that although careful and balanced scholarship on Islam is being done at leading universities by scholars who have learned to read medieval Arabic texts, such research increasingly is ignored in favor of material published by “crazy ideologues, clowns and jokers” who often do not know how to read Arabic.

Doug Watts, a Carson campaign spokesman, declined to point to any possible sources for Carson’s claim. “I have scholarly sources as well, but I am not going to get into our usual back and forth on this topic,” he said.

The Pinocchio Test
Carson is mouthing a discredited and inaccurate interpretation of a relatively minor section of the Koran, with the apparent aim of painting all Muslims as untrustworthy. There is no evidence that the Koran encourages Muslims to lie in pursuit of goals. He earns Four Pinocchios.

Four Pinocchios


pinocchio_4.jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ourages-muslims-to-lie-to-achieve-your-goals/
 
First of all I really wish people would stop re-interpreting people's religious texts for them.

People do this to Christians all the time and I hate it and they do it to Muslims and I again hate that. Let people interpret and understand their own religious texts.

So Muslims aren't willing to die for their beliefs? Interesting

Are you aware that the set of all Muslims includes in it about a billion different individual people from several different countries and cultures and what they are willing and unwilling to do for their beliefs differs among all of them??
 
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First of all I really wish people would stop re-interpreting people's religious texts for them.

People do this to Christians all the time and I hate it and they do it to Muslims and I again hate that. Let people interpret and understand their own religious texts.

yet people think trump and carson should interpret Obama's muslimness or lack thereof
 
Is Carson lying or misrepresenting something, or is he just ignorant of everything but pediatric neurosurgery?
 
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yet people think trump and carson should interpret Obama's muslimness or lack thereof

I tend to believe that you take someone's word for it if they say they are not of a particular religious faith.

You can take their word for it if they say they are of a religious faith too, but I always note that them claiming a particular religious faith doesn't mean they take it seriously or live their lives by it.
 
He continues to prove that theory on a daily basis. Great surgeon, but pretty clueless outside of the OR.


Would you say you have a better grasp of world events than him or any other candidate or are we all pretty clueless?
 
Would you say you have a better grasp of world events than him or any other candidate or are we all pretty clueless?

I'm not sure if I do or not. I know that I wouldn't have said some of the things he said in the past few months, and I assume a majority of the people would agree with me. He'll always have his defenders (yourself included) for his hyperbolic statements so he gets to continue speaking freely about things he appears to know very little about. He's certainly not the only person guilty of that though.
 
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I'm not sure if I do or not. I know that I wouldn't have said some of the things he said in the past few months, and I assume a majority of the people would agree with me. He'll always have his defenders (yourself included) for his hyperbolic statements so he gets to continue speaking freely about things he appears to know very little about. He's certainly not the only person guilty of that though.

I guess you could consider me a defender although right now he's not who I would caucus for.

The whole thing he said about not advocating a Muslim for POTUS is blown way out of proportion IMO.
 
I guess you could consider me a defender although right now he's not who I would caucus for.

The whole thing he said about not advocating a Muslim for POTUS is blown way out of proportion IMO.

He's black and religious. I've read enough of your posts on here to know you'd probably support him more than I would.

You may think his statements about Muslims are being blown out of proportion, but anyone (let alone someone that is a candidate for President) that says people of a certain religion shouldn't be qualified for the Presidency should be ridiculed for those statements, not defended.
 
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He's black and religious. I've read enough of your posts on here to know you'd probably support him more than I would.

You may think his statements about Muslims are being blown out of proportion, but anyone (let alone someone that is a candidate for President) that says people of a certain religion shouldn't be qualified for the Presidency should be ridiculed for those statements, not defended.

But he didn't say that.
 
But he didn't say that.

OK. Semantics aside, he pretty said a Muslim shouldn't be President because they would practice Sharia Law and the Koran allows Muslims to lie in order to achieve their goals. So now that we've cleared up the definition of what "taqiyya" really is and nobody really thinks a Muslim would issue Sharia Law in the US if elected President, will Carson back track his statements? Somehow I don't think you'll see an apology from him. Because it was never intended to be a real discussion, just something he could say that would help stir up his base. And he executed it perfectly.
 
He's black and religious. I've read enough of your posts on here to know you'd probably support him more than I would.

You may think his statements about Muslims are being blown out of proportion, but anyone (let alone someone that is a candidate for President) that says people of a certain religion shouldn't be qualified for the Presidency should be ridiculed for those statements, not defended.


Well yeah I would support him more than you would, I've read enough of your posts to know that. I could say the same about you when it comes to Bernie or Hillary.

I actually like Rubio/Kasich and then Carly.
 
OK. Semantics aside, he pretty said a Muslim shouldn't be President because they would practice Sharia Law and the Koran allows Muslims to lie in order to achieve their goals. So now that we've cleared up the definition of what "taqiyya" really is and nobody really thinks a Muslim would issue Sharia Law in the US if elected President, will Carson back track his statements? Somehow I don't think you'll see an apology from him. Because it was never intended to be a real discussion, just something he could say that would help stir up his base. And he executed it perfectly.

He said that HE wouldn't advocate for a Muslim president.

A lot on here wouldn't advocate for a liberal president, that doesn't necessarily deserve them ridicule.

It was definitely meant to stir up the base.
 
He said that HE wouldn't advocate for a Muslim president.

A lot on here wouldn't advocate for a liberal president, that doesn't necessarily deserve them ridicule.

It was definitely meant to stir up the base.

Fair enough. The problem becomes thought that people like Swag don't read the followup on what he ACTUALLY meant. Those people are then filled with misconceptions about what it would mean in order to have an actual Muslim president. Things like "a Muslim President can lie because the Koran encourages it" is a dangerous statement for someone in Carson's position to be making (in my opinion)

I'm probably giving that base too much credit, as they would never take the time to actually educate themselves on the matter regardless if Carson uttered his nonsense or not.

Regardless, this isn't the first time Carson has said something that left me scratching my head so my original statement of him being naive outside of the OR remains.
 
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Carson should definitely be questioned, even ridiculed, but more pandering to base isn't the answer.

Unless you think GOPers will be outraged on his views of Muslims?
 
Fair enough. The problem becomes thought that people like Swag don't read the followup on what he ACTUALLY meant. Those people are then filled with misconceptions about what it would mean in order to have an actual Muslim president. Things like "a Muslim President can lie because the Koran encourages it" is a dangerous statement for someone in Carson's position to be making (in my opinion)

I'm probably giving that base too much credit, as they would never take the time to actually educate themselves on the matter regardless if Carson uttered his nonsense or not.

Regardless, this isn't the first time Carson has said something that left me scratching my head so my original statement of him being naive outside of the OR remains.


Would you consider yourself more educated than I do, and what is your basis?
 
Has anyone figured out how in the hell people see something in Carson that tells them he would make a good President? I don't get it. But then again...Trump is leading.
 
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Idiot savant theory right?
No, I think he was probably totally focused on his medical career, then stumbled into a retirement job as a right wing puppet. He clearly hasn't put the same focus into being a politician as he did being a surgeon. He is unprepared for basic questions, and seems to think he can treat interviews like lectures.
His ceiling has probably already been achieved. I've posted this many times. He will do decently in Iowa because the Evangelicals do not trust Trump, and they had a big slice of Huckabee 8 years ago. It didn't get them anywhere. Carson may sneak past New Hampshire and show nicely in South Carolina, but he'll bomb after that. He has built almost no ground machine. He won't win the nomination.
 
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No, I think he was probably totally focused on his medical career, then stumbled into a retirement job as a right wing puppet. He clearly hasn't put the same focus into being a politician as he did being a surgeon. He is unprepared for basic questions, and seems to think he can treat interviews like lectures.
His ceiling has probably already been achieved. I've posted this many times. He will do decently in Iowa because the Evangelicals do not trust Trump, and they had a big slice of Huckabee 8 years ago. It didn't get them anywhere. Carson may sneak past New Hampshire and show nicely in South Carolina, but he'll bomb after that. He has built almost no ground machine. He won't win the nomination.


I'm not sure many ppl on this board believes he will win the nomination. Personally I don't believe Trump will win the nomination either.
 
He said that HE wouldn't advocate for a Muslim president.

A lot on here wouldn't advocate for a liberal president, that doesn't necessarily deserve them ridicule.

It was definitely meant to stir up the base.

He disqualified EVERY Muslim for president based simply on their religious beliefs. You can continue to pretend he didn't say it or qualify it by saying "it's just his opinion" (as if it could be anything else)...but he did say it. Then, of course, he discounted religion completely in his consideration of Congress, saying it should be about what a person believes America is about and how they live their lives.

Idiot.
 
Just wondering where the outrage is for the hatred of Christians/Christ espoused in the Talmud.

Or is that a different kind of hatred than what the Koran teaches? :eek:
 
So you admit that experience wasn't a real big issue like the GOP made it out to be with Obama?

I don't know, I didn't vote either way so I'm not sure what the GOP alleged. However it sounds like you're saying inexperience wasn't an issue before but maybe now?
 
Tell me, who is an expert on becoming president before you actually are one?
Someone who has actually spent any time in a public capacity would be a great start. Carson spent all his time in the operating room. It's admirable how skilled he became in this endeavor, but it probably didn't afford him much time to ponder the intricate workings of much else.

He might as well try to become the head coach of the New England Patriots. He has zero experience to become President.
 
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