Carolina Received NCAA Academic Fraud Allegations Today
- Thread starter 1BigGalloot
- Start date
North Carolina is reading and has 90 days to make the report public and to respond. Will surely happen sooner.
http://uncnews.unc.edu/2015/05/22/unc-chapel-hill-announces-receiving-ncaa-notice-of-allegations/
http://uncnews.unc.edu/2015/05/22/unc-chapel-hill-announces-receiving-ncaa-notice-of-allegations/
thanks for posting the article...18 years....EIGHTEEN YEARS of academic cheating...Williams should be ashamed of himself.
18 years ...and at least 1500 students. Probably more, many more. Iif the NCAA is submitting fact-finding allegations, there is almost certainly many instances which were never uncovered or finally validated.
Those numbers, the scale and duration of the fraud, indicates that it was well known among the student population that certain classes were open for business.
It also virtually guarantees that UNC administrators (including Athletic Department officials) had actual knowledge of what was happening. The case against UNC is even stronger if (which I suspect) the number of scholarship athletes accessing these classes is disproportionate to their percentage of the general student population as a whole.
Those numbers, the scale and duration of the fraud, indicates that it was well known among the student population that certain classes were open for business.
It also virtually guarantees that UNC administrators (including Athletic Department officials) had actual knowledge of what was happening. The case against UNC is even stronger if (which I suspect) the number of scholarship athletes accessing these classes is disproportionate to their percentage of the general student population as a whole.
Last edited:
So, which second tier school is going to be singled out by the NCAA to be punished? Got to make an example of someone
So, which second tier school is going to be singled out by the NCAA to be punished? Got to make an example of someone
Davidson College is in North Carolina. They are proud of both their academics and athletics. I say the NCAA come down on them hard.
There would be no way athletic department academic advisors and tutors were unaware of the bogus classes. Actually, that's how this was discovered. A counselor just couldn't do it any more. She initially merely "tweeted" her whistle, but when she was fired for refusing to play along, she blew her whistle full throttle as part of a defamation suit.
Much of this "discovery" was undoubtedly unearthed by non NCAA attorneys & investigators when she pointed them in the right direction as part of her lawsuit.
McAdoo & McCants filed their own suits, claiming the university failed in its promise to educate them, but I believe they lost recently because the judge said they participated in their own academic demise. However, the suit must have aided the NCAA's investigators.
People mock the NCAA office, but it's purposely understaffed by its member institutions so it can't possibly bust all the cheating programs at all the schools. Hence, it often rides coat tail to legitimate investigations and findings in serious legal proceedings. See Boston College's basketball gambling as an example.
Yes, UNC's athletic department was the major beneficiary of this systemic fraud, but only half the students were athletes.
North Carolina has generally been long regarded right behind UC Berkeley and Michigan as one of the best public schools in the country. Not anymore.
I believe every member of Carolina's 2004 national championship team was enrolled in bogus classes that season. The report will soon confirm that. Roy Williams insists he didn't know. He likely didn't. That's how "plausible deniability" works.
Much of this "discovery" was undoubtedly unearthed by non NCAA attorneys & investigators when she pointed them in the right direction as part of her lawsuit.
McAdoo & McCants filed their own suits, claiming the university failed in its promise to educate them, but I believe they lost recently because the judge said they participated in their own academic demise. However, the suit must have aided the NCAA's investigators.
People mock the NCAA office, but it's purposely understaffed by its member institutions so it can't possibly bust all the cheating programs at all the schools. Hence, it often rides coat tail to legitimate investigations and findings in serious legal proceedings. See Boston College's basketball gambling as an example.
Yes, UNC's athletic department was the major beneficiary of this systemic fraud, but only half the students were athletes.
North Carolina has generally been long regarded right behind UC Berkeley and Michigan as one of the best public schools in the country. Not anymore.
I believe every member of Carolina's 2004 national championship team was enrolled in bogus classes that season. The report will soon confirm that. Roy Williams insists he didn't know. He likely didn't. That's how "plausible deniability" works.
The first line on this site:
http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-are/national-office
"At the NCAA’s national office in Indianapolis, we support student-athlete success by ensuring they are prepared for the college classroom when they enter school and then continue to progress toward a degree."
I don't feel entirely comfortable that the NCAA wants to do a dang thing about the cheating at UNC, regardless of what they claim.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-are/national-office
"At the NCAA’s national office in Indianapolis, we support student-athlete success by ensuring they are prepared for the college classroom when they enter school and then continue to progress toward a degree."
I don't feel entirely comfortable that the NCAA wants to do a dang thing about the cheating at UNC, regardless of what they claim.
Holy crap, I misread a summary of the report yesterday. The NCAA actually found that 3100 students participated in the academic fraud and of this group, 1500 were student-athletes. Fifteen Hundred. Probably more.
At least 1500 athletes cheated while attending UNC. Would anyone dispute that such fraud allowed athletes to remain eligible to participate in sports while at UNC?
Under any reasonable analysis, there is very little doubt that coaches were aware that their players were violating UNC and NCAA rules. To he extent they were unaware, coaches made a conscious decision to ignore what they suspected was happening. Roy Williams is full of shit.
I agree with DanL - the NCAA has become part of the problem. The NCAA is eager to promote their strong support for educational excellence and academic integrity in their publications and other communication with the public. Yet when it comes time to stand behind those principals they almost routinely fail.
At least 1500 athletes cheated while attending UNC. Would anyone dispute that such fraud allowed athletes to remain eligible to participate in sports while at UNC?
Under any reasonable analysis, there is very little doubt that coaches were aware that their players were violating UNC and NCAA rules. To he extent they were unaware, coaches made a conscious decision to ignore what they suspected was happening. Roy Williams is full of shit.
I agree with DanL - the NCAA has become part of the problem. The NCAA is eager to promote their strong support for educational excellence and academic integrity in their publications and other communication with the public. Yet when it comes time to stand behind those principals they almost routinely fail.
While perhaps deplorable, it likely doesn't qualify as cheating, since the classes were available to all students, and more than half who passed were not athletes. This is why the NCAA is in a bind. The "fraud" is beyond them. If schools want to create watered down degrees to increase graduation rates for the population at large, and athletics happens to be one of the constituents to tap into it, even perhaps the biggest, then so be it.
This was bigger than sports.
Every university has its own mission. Howard and Grambling's is different than Harvard's. Public schools like Iowa are different than private schools like Northwestern. Financial pressures can get institutions off track & away from their mission. We saw that when the regents forced President Mason to take more Iowa high schoolers instead of favoring out of staters that paid more.
Athletics is not the only force co-opting academic missions, but it sure is a major one. Georgetown is a great, hard to get into school. There is no way the basketball team is majoring in the same program as the general student body at large with average ACT scores above 33. But, basketball increases the general awareness of the school, and a priest in the early 80's green lighted the trade off. Each school is free to set its own academic rigor. All that's at stake is it's reputation.
Academics and athletics are mutually exclusive enterprises that got inextricably entwined as soon as Princeton and Rutgers played the first football game in 1869. I'm sure the first school to grant "scholarships" for athletes was cheating. Then academia later saw the benefits, and codified it. The country has struggled to manage the marriage between these two for 145 years. What's cheating? It changes every year.
This was bigger than sports.
Every university has its own mission. Howard and Grambling's is different than Harvard's. Public schools like Iowa are different than private schools like Northwestern. Financial pressures can get institutions off track & away from their mission. We saw that when the regents forced President Mason to take more Iowa high schoolers instead of favoring out of staters that paid more.
Athletics is not the only force co-opting academic missions, but it sure is a major one. Georgetown is a great, hard to get into school. There is no way the basketball team is majoring in the same program as the general student body at large with average ACT scores above 33. But, basketball increases the general awareness of the school, and a priest in the early 80's green lighted the trade off. Each school is free to set its own academic rigor. All that's at stake is it's reputation.
Academics and athletics are mutually exclusive enterprises that got inextricably entwined as soon as Princeton and Rutgers played the first football game in 1869. I'm sure the first school to grant "scholarships" for athletes was cheating. Then academia later saw the benefits, and codified it. The country has struggled to manage the marriage between these two for 145 years. What's cheating? It changes every year.
Galloot makes a good point in the manner which has caused all things good in this country to stink of rot. He s right, the NCAA will use the fact that many non-athletes took the courses and thus this is an academics problem, not theirs. But in the real world where s..t comes from the rear and not out the mouth (not you Galloot...the thought process you correctly described) learned scholars of common sense will recognize the roughly statistical equality of non-athletes who enjoyed the fake courses at UNC, and the non-athletes at Kentucky who enjoy residence at Dormitory O'Baskeetball!. Just enough to CLAIM it's not all about the athletes.
Where's Judge Roy Bean when we need a little fair justice?
Where's Judge Roy Bean when we need a little fair justice?
Well reasoned thoughts, but nearly half of "the students" in the bogus classes were athletes, and athletes only make up less than 10% of the student population. It is pretty clear that athletes were being guided into those classes. More likely, the classes were created for athletes, and a small portion of the general student population also took advantage, as they became aware of those classes. Even if Uncle Roy, other coaches, and school administrators were not aware of exactly what was going on, it occurred on their watch and they failed to provide the oversight that comes with their big paychecks. I know it won't happen, but if the NCAA wants to send a message, the egregious disregard for educating "students" justifies severe punishment, even the death penalty IMO.
ok ...im headed to Huxley in the morning...what time is best...I've got the boys golf tournament schedule just wanted to make sure the sunday dates we talked about...
What sports should get the death penalty? All of them? When Florida State had open book tests on the internet, Bobby Bowden didn't take a hit anywhere but in the court of public opinion.
This is all par for the course.
This is all par for the course.
This is 10 x worse than what Minnesota did and they ruined there basketball program 20 years ago!!
This kind of thing happens to some degree or another at a lot of schools, maybe all of them. You may recall a "principles of basketball" course at the U of I that the players were all taking when Lute was there. (I have no doubt there is/was something similar at ISU, don't get all het up). But this thing at UNC seems to have taken it to new depths. It will be really interesting to see what happens. Roy got KU put on probation when he was there, but that's not unusual at KU.
The question is of course this "depth". As to the "principles of basketball" thing, one shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Do you have details that it was an easy course?
The older amongst us may remember the slang term, "Rocks for Jocks". According to the "Urban Dictionary" that describes an introductory geology course so basic that "even" athletes could pass. However, I recall a couple years ago a class in some college out west that was actually CALLED "Rocks for Jocks" yet when I read the class syllabus I wondered if I could have stood a chance!
Yeah, "Rocks for Jocks" was there in the '60s. The course I mentioned was a bit of an embarrassment and I'm virtually certain it was scuttled. I know it was when Lute was there because Bobby Hansen was one of the guys mentioned as taking it.
I think the definitive comment on this subject in general was uttered by Joe Namath when he was being bombarded by the media when he signed with the Jets out of Alabama for the then unheard of sum of $400,000. It was pretty controversial. A reporter asked him if he had majored in P.E. at Alabama, and he said, "Nah. Journalism. It was easier."
Which, as a journalism major, I can say was not only a clever answer, but absolutely correct.
"Which, as a journalism major, I can say was not only a clever answer, but absolutely correct.", Lone Clone
I always thought I could see a little Mark Twain in you....beaten and berated into submission by some instructor. Run free...write...he's long gone by now. In Hell I'll bet.
I always thought I could see a little Mark Twain in you....beaten and berated into submission by some instructor. Run free...write...he's long gone by now. In Hell I'll bet.
I can't speak to these classes as they are today, but I can to how they were at Iowa in the early 80's. My brother was a baseball player, and one of the classes he was instructed to take was Geology 101, otherwise known as Rocks for Jocks. Half the class (or more) were athletes who played a sport at Iowa. The real cupcake classes he took where the Coaching Baseball, Coaching Basketball, Sports and Recreation, etc. He took the max of these classes that were allowed (maybe 12 credit hours), and they were even easier than you would assume. These classes were geared for and mostly taken by Iowa athletes.
BTW, my brother had a Tennis class with a Iowa basketball player (whom I won't name). He said he was the dumbest person he's ever met in his life. He said there was no way this player was passing normal classes on his own. Nice kid, but dumb as they came.
One last thing. He said a bunch of he baseball buddies would take the same classes. Other athletes in other sports would do the same thing. They would make sure they would sit in the same area but not in the same rows. This way when taking tests it was easy for them to cheat and copy off the tests of their teammates who were sitting in rows ahead of them. They new where to sit the guys to maximize the copying off another's paper. The most important thing to do was make sure you wore your ball cap from day one in the class and every class you attended. That way when they took the test, it didn't stand out as unusual wearing a cap. The cap allowed them to look at others test papers without the Professor (and others) seeing them cheating because you could never see their eyes.
Last edited:
As I recall, Phantom, Iowa suffered some embarrassment when Ronnie Harmon testified in a trial regarding a sports agent. I'm not going to dig up details as we're talking thirty years ago. But just going off of memory, I thought a bowling class came into question. And it seems to me that our University President at the time, Hunter Rawlings, became so concerned that he made a statement that the NCAA should make all freshmen ineligible so they could be students first, and that if the NCAA didn't get it done Iowa was going to do so within three years, regardless.
And, wasn't it Ray Thompson, who by all accounts as I understand it was academically eligible by NCAA standards to compete, that was held out of an NCAA Tournament due to Iowa's own sudden interest in academics?
While on the subject, I might as well bring up Ed Martin, who was a big part of the cheating that brought down the Michigan Banners from the "Fab Five" era. It turned out that Martin had some affiliation with Iowa and on occasion questions come up about how clean our program was.
The thing is, in the case of easy courses, or the Ed Martin crud, the NCAA certainly had enough of a smoking gun to investigate should they have wanted, and I highly doubt Iowa had any kind of "Get out of Jail" free card that earned us a pass. This particular bit of history reminds me of Kentucky's own "World Wide Wes", which people can research themselves there is just too much on him to relate. But WWW is seen all over the college basketball world. Does that means everywhere he goes corruption follows? Or does it mean that because of his influence among highly ranked high school players many college programs prefer not to boot him out of their games?
Anyway...
Yes, it's been my experience that some college courses are easier than others. We can't all be Medical Doctors or Engineers.
But in defense of your allegations. First, whatever your brother states it sounds as if he had a pretty good racket going cheating on tests and using his baseball cap to elicit sympathy. I wonder why guys like Russ Millard and others had so much trouble staying eligible in such a simple environment? As I recall, we had a pretty tough time for a while of keeping our players on the court due to grades? Did that come later? Was it part of the fix? If so, well than clearly Iowa took an embarrassing revelation and before and without the NCAA having to crack down managed to rectify it. Something that, as again the difficulty of classes is always going to vary, is going to always need monitoring.
Furthermore, it seems to me that Iowa enjoys a history of successful ex-players who have done quite well after college.. Wright is a published author. Armstrong a sports agent. Lester was (Might still be I haven't kept up) very high up in the Lakers organization.
Let's take this in context. Title of the thread, "Carolina Received NCAA Academic Fraud Allegations Today". Nowhere are we going to find a school that is perfect, but let's be careful not to let that carry us to the conclusion I hear Illinois fans say all the time, "Everybody does it!" No, I don't think so. Not to Carolina's extent.
And, wasn't it Ray Thompson, who by all accounts as I understand it was academically eligible by NCAA standards to compete, that was held out of an NCAA Tournament due to Iowa's own sudden interest in academics?
While on the subject, I might as well bring up Ed Martin, who was a big part of the cheating that brought down the Michigan Banners from the "Fab Five" era. It turned out that Martin had some affiliation with Iowa and on occasion questions come up about how clean our program was.
The thing is, in the case of easy courses, or the Ed Martin crud, the NCAA certainly had enough of a smoking gun to investigate should they have wanted, and I highly doubt Iowa had any kind of "Get out of Jail" free card that earned us a pass. This particular bit of history reminds me of Kentucky's own "World Wide Wes", which people can research themselves there is just too much on him to relate. But WWW is seen all over the college basketball world. Does that means everywhere he goes corruption follows? Or does it mean that because of his influence among highly ranked high school players many college programs prefer not to boot him out of their games?
Anyway...
Yes, it's been my experience that some college courses are easier than others. We can't all be Medical Doctors or Engineers.
But in defense of your allegations. First, whatever your brother states it sounds as if he had a pretty good racket going cheating on tests and using his baseball cap to elicit sympathy. I wonder why guys like Russ Millard and others had so much trouble staying eligible in such a simple environment? As I recall, we had a pretty tough time for a while of keeping our players on the court due to grades? Did that come later? Was it part of the fix? If so, well than clearly Iowa took an embarrassing revelation and before and without the NCAA having to crack down managed to rectify it. Something that, as again the difficulty of classes is always going to vary, is going to always need monitoring.
Furthermore, it seems to me that Iowa enjoys a history of successful ex-players who have done quite well after college.. Wright is a published author. Armstrong a sports agent. Lester was (Might still be I haven't kept up) very high up in the Lakers organization.
Let's take this in context. Title of the thread, "Carolina Received NCAA Academic Fraud Allegations Today". Nowhere are we going to find a school that is perfect, but let's be careful not to let that carry us to the conclusion I hear Illinois fans say all the time, "Everybody does it!" No, I don't think so. Not to Carolina's extent.
This is the point I made -- or tried to make. From what we know of the UNC situation, this was a highly organized, widespread, long-running program that was almost certainly intended to benefit athletes.
What may save the Tar Heels is that a significant number of non-athletes took the same route. And, of course, the fact that UNC is one of the prestige schools in MBB. Look at what Kansas has gotten away with over the years....by "gotten away with" I mean how relatively light the NCAA penalties have been and how virtually nonexistent the public criticism has been.
My memory may be faulty but as I recall, Lute's Basketball Class was a 1 credit course designed for non-athletes. It was very popular with the students and it was hard to get into. I am probably wrong but I didn't think the bb players took the class I thought they assisted with the class but maybe they received credit for doing so. Again, I am not sure about this but it's what I remember.
Must read story below. Does a great job of putting it all in perspective, and the quandary in which the NCAA finds itself regarding North Carolina. What can it do? What can it afford not to do?
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...demic-case-puts-ncaa-and-its-mission-on-trial
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...demic-case-puts-ncaa-and-its-mission-on-trial
My memory is that all the players took the class. I am positive Bobby Hansen did. It happened too long ago to be accessible via the Gazette's archives online.
You just need a few complicit professors. I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating. A friend of mine in high school had a father that taught in the English Dept. Classes were officially in a room in EPB, but, they met in his house since every student was a FB or BB player. Every player got an A or B, and the professor had ridiculously good seat assignments in Kinnick and CHA for a rather low grade professor.
I always assumed a few guys also got the professor's daughter (My friend), because of all the jersey's she wore, including a game worn bowl jersey by the starting QB of that game. She was a cutie.
I always assumed a few guys also got the professor's daughter (My friend), because of all the jersey's she wore, including a game worn bowl jersey by the starting QB of that game. She was a cutie.
P.E. Credits were a requirement when I attended Iowa (and as far as I know they still are). You could get credit for a wide variety of activities such as fitness classes or going on a hiking trip in Devil's Lake, Wisconsin for the weekend.
Why shouldn't athletes be allowed to fulfill their requirement with the sport they are already participating in considering they put 100x as much time and effort into it vs. what other students do for their P.E. credits?
Why shouldn't athletes be allowed to fulfill their requirement with the sport they are already participating in considering they put 100x as much time and effort into it vs. what other students do for their P.E. credits?
PE is a requirement for every student not just athletes. to get their major. a student needs 128 credit hours BUT only 66 credit hours are required in a students major. there is no requirement as to what the other 62 credit hours are. unless you are going to be a DR. or other highly skilled occupation... the most facing UNC might be a 1 year postseason ban.
18 years & 1,500 students should at least equal a 5 year ban. Ideally, it should be 18 years, but WTH do I know.
I see Bobby Hansen's name mentioned a couple of times. While he may have taken some easy classes (just like 99% of students do), he was no dumb jock. I had two marketing classes with him, and sat a few seats away at our graduation ceremony. He earned his degree in 4 years....and you can't do that by taking only easy classes.
It's all right here if you want to read it, 59 pages delineating 5 NCAA allegations of severe charges against UNC. The irony is, one of the 3 main perpetrators was a philosophy instructor who was director of North Carolina's Parr Center for Ethics.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ice-allegations-football-basketball/28474945/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ice-allegations-football-basketball/28474945/
