H ROTards would like to explain to you why voting is for fools

[HRiscool]

I invite everyone who hates the republicans and democrats to explain to me why their aren't more Bernie Sanders' and Thomas Jefferson's in office?

Edit: I realize Sanders isn't a libertarian. I'm just putting him out there as a counter-weight to the tea party. Socialists and Tea Partiers seem to have something in common. Neither of them are too thrilled with the party they are affiliated with.

 

[darkstar]

Fundraising, two party system, electoral college, tradition, people feeling like they are throwing their vote away, when third party ideas become popular one of the major parties absorb their ideas

 

[naturalmwa]

1) Libertarian ideas are mostly bad
2) Good libertarian ideas get absorbed by the current party system.
3) Neither Sanders nor Jefferson were Libertarians.

 

[HRiscool]

Fundraising, two party system, electoral college, tradition, people feeling like they are throwing their vote away, when third party ideas become popular one of the major parties absorb their ideas

Seems about right.

Don't you anticipate some libertarian billionaires could get some of their kind into office?

 

[naturalmwa]

Seems about right.

Don't you anticipate some libertarian billionaires could get some of their kind into office?

They have many in office, Ernst from Iowa for one.

 

[KitingHigh]

The majority of people are sheep to afraid to not be be part of the flock. It really is that simple. The Internet and social media have actually made it much worse. People have access to more info, but instead of using that for enlightenment they are becoming dumber.

 

[HRiscool]

1) Libertarian ideas are mostly bad
2) Good libertarian ideas get absorbed by the current party system.
3) Neither Sanders nor Jefferson were Libertarians.

Yep, I edited for Sanders. The reason I mentioned Jefferson is cuz many if not most libertarians claim his as one of their own. I know this from personal experience debating them on various websites.

 

[theIowaHawk]

The majority of people are sheep to afraid to not be be part of the flock. It really is that simple. The Internet and social media have actually made it much worse. People have access to more info, but instead of using that for enlightenment they are becoming dumber.

Yeah, everyone not voting third party is a sheep...that's it, right.

 

[HRiscool]

They have many in office, Ernst from Iowa for one.

Question for natural: Do you think libertarians are a growing political power within both parties?

 

[KitingHigh]

Yeah, everyone not voting third party is a sheep...that's it, right.

Not what I said. Now everyone not voting third party when a third party better represents their views than the big two is most definitely a sheep.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Not what I said. Now everyone not voting third party when a third party better represents their views than the big two is most definitely a sheep.

Are you the one making that determination?

 

[HRiscool]

Yeah, everyone not voting third party is a sheep...that's it, right.

I kinda agree with TIH. It seems like sour grapes to say just because people don't choose the candidate you put up against the republicans and democrats, that they deserve personal insults. Jesse Ventura ran as a grass roots independent. So it's hard to sell the idea that they don't have access. Could it be as simple as the two parties represent the two value systems of Americans? Maybe not perfectly, but should we expect perfection from such an imperfect race (humans)?

 

[darkstar]

Seems about right.

Don't you anticipate some libertarian billionaires could get some of their kind into office?

I think they have been trying but because the billionaires are rational they have their kind run as Republicans to maximize their potential to win. History shows 3rd party candidates do poorly.

 

[KitingHigh]

Are you the one making that determination?

I rarely have someone tell me they are going to vote for a candidate because they like that candidate. They either believe to other major candidate is going to ruin the country, they think their vote will be wasted on a third party or both. Yeah, those people are sheep. It's not just voting. Look at the Milgrim or countless other experiments that show quite definitely the majority of the population is hard wired to follow the herd. It is actually one of the most important determining factors in the decisions most people make. Not only are people hard wired to follow, many are also hard wired to get angry at anyone not doing the same.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Also, people are often voting for the candidate they want...that has the best chance to win.

Wanting Sanders to win and ending up with, say Hillary, isn't the best choice for many people.

 

[KitingHigh]

 

[HRiscool]

Also, people are often voting for the candidate they want...that has the best chance to win.

Wanting Sanders to win and ending up with, say Hillary, isn't the best choice for many people.

I agree that people don't often get what they want from their vote. But isn't part of being an adult realizing you don't get your way on everything? It just seems like the instant gratification ethos is a reflection of societal immaturity (like I'm one to talk, sitting in the tub watching my tabby cat go after my rubber duckie).

I think of all those who voted for Nader or Perot. I can just hear them now, "I hate America. This country is so stupid they won't put my brilliant choice into the white house."

 

[naturalmwa]

Question for natural: Do you think libertarians are a growing political power within both parties?

I really only see this with the Rs. Libertarianism via the Kochs, Americans for Prosperity, Tea Party machine is the new religious right. I don't see that sort of push in the Ds. The Ds have been moving into the old Rockefeller republican ground that the Clintons represent. Both parties have shifted to the right on policy issues. Liberals have to look to civil rights as a source of consolation.

 

[HRiscool]

I rarely have someone tell me they are going to vote for a candidate because they like that candidate. They either believe to other major candidate is going to ruin the country, they think their vote will be wasted on a third party or both. Yeah, those people are sheep. It's not just voting. Look at the Milgrim or countless other experiments that show quite definitely the majority of the population is hard wired to follow the herd. It is actually one of the most important determining factors in the decisions most people make. Not only are people hard wired to follow, many are also hard wired to get angry at anyone not doing the same.

Fair enough. Conformity is a human thing. But evolution has imposed that rule on almost every species on the planet. Tell me what non-conformity gets you in the Ant kingdom? Or lion kingdom? Or whale kingdom? Or simian kingdom? I'm actually amazed at the amount of non-conformity embraced by Americans. Let's say we brought Jefferson and Washington back from the grave and showed them what we accomplished.

"Wow, you guys abolished slavery? Legalized men marrying other men? Ventured into outer space? Unlocked the mysteries of the Universe? From my vantage point those people saying America is an unfree society devoid of diverse opinions/ideas don't realize what they have. And I feel a little bad for them."

 

[HRiscool]

I really only see this with the Rs. Libertarianism via the Kochs, Americans for Prosperity, Tea Party machine is the new religious right. I don't see that sort of push in the Ds. The Ds have been moving into the old Rockefeller republican ground that the Clintons represent. Both parties have shifted to the right on policy issues. Liberals have to look to civil rights as a source of consolation.

But if you're correct and America is moving to the right. Why did the right lose the culture war?

 

[KitingHigh]

Fair enough. Conformity is a human thing. But evolution has imposed that rule on almost every species on the planet. Tell me what non-conformity gets you in the Ant kingdom? Or lion kingdom? Or whale kingdom? Or simian kingdom? I'm actually amazed at the amount of non-conformity embraced by Americans. Let's say we brought Jefferson and Washington back from the grave and showed them what we accomplished.

"Wow, you guys abolished slavery? Legalized men marrying other men? Ventured into outer space? Unlocked the mysteries of the Universe? From my vantage point those people saying America is an unfree society devoid of diverse opinions/ideas don't realize what they have. And I feel a little bad for them."

You do realize that most of our great discoveries and change have come from or because of non conformists. That has been true throughout history and certainly hasn't changed recently. Not sure what this has to due with America, as the herd mentality is a human problem, not just an American one. On that note though, if Washington and the rest of our founders had been conformists, America would have never been. Those wanting to revolt were actually a minority at the time.

Now as for the Ants, Lions, and Whales, three very distinctly different animal societies by the way; would you prefer we be like one of those? You want to live in an ant society?

 

[WORTHYWISH]

Bernie Sanders isn't anywhere close to being a Libertarian.

 

[dgordo]

Seems about right.

Don't you anticipate some libertarian billionaires could get some of their kind into office?

You would think so but even when David Koch was on the libertarian ticket he still couldn't get there.

 

[HRiscool]

Bernie Sanders isn't anywhere close to being a Libertarian.

So you're saying you didn't read the OP?

 

[HRiscool]

You do realize that most of our great discoveries and change have come from or because of non conformists. That has been true throughout history and certainly hasn't changed recently. Not sure what this has to due with America, as the herd mentality is a human problem, not just an American one. On that note though, if Washington and the rest of our founders had been conformists, America would have never been. Those wanting to revolt were actually a minority at the time.

Now as for the Ants, Lions, and Whales, three very distinctly different animal societies by the way; would you prefer we be like one of those? You want to live in an ant society?

I think conformity and non-conformity have to co-exist. Would we be better if everyone was an anarchist? Would we be better if everyone goose-stepped? I think America has done something that certainly had never been done prior to 1776 - I think we found a balance. My beef is with people who constantly complain that America sucks. Wanna take a guess with side of the aisle burns more American flags?

 

[naturalmwa]

But if you're correct and America is moving to the right. Why did the right lose the culture war?

I said the nation's parties are moving to the right on policy issues. There is no competition for the left, so they get ignored by the Ds. The Ds are not following a base strategy like the Rs. The Ds are trying to limit the Rs to extreme positions by grabbing the middle ground. Culture wars aren't really decided by politicians, but directly by the people. Where the people get heard, they go lib often.

 

[HRiscool]

You would think so but even when David Koch was on the libertarian ticket he still couldn't get there.

I think this is saying something. Populist candidates can appeal to those whose envy of the rich has turned to hate. So when people say you can't beat money, well Obama thinks the rich are evil, how did he get into office? Simple, a populist approach.

 

[dgordo]

I think this is saying something. Populist candidates can appeal to those whose envy of the rich has turned to hate. So when people say you can't beat money, well Obama thinks the rich are evil, how did he get into office? Simple, a populist approach.

Well populism and a billion dollars.

 

[HRiscool]

I said the nation's parties are moving to the right on policy issues. There is no competition for the left, so they get ignored by the Ds. The Ds are not following a base strategy like the Rs. The Ds are trying to limit the Rs to extreme positions by grabbing the middle ground. Culture wars aren't really decided by politicians, but directly by the people. Where the people get heard, they go lib often.

So basically Americans are liberals. The entire country used to vote Democrat (1932-1980). What changed?

 

[naturalmwa]

So basically Americans are liberals. The entire country used to vote Democrat (1932-1980). What changed?

Conservatism is easier to fit on a bumper sticker.

 

[TexMichFan]

Conservatism is easier to fit on a bumper sticker.

It's not the fit it's the bumper.

 

[naturalmwa]

It's not the fit it's the bumper.

Thats a good point too.

 

[HRiscool]

Well populism and a billion dollars.

Yes, and it pains me to say this, he worked for that billion. He's a reminder that the harder your work, the luckier you get. I wish the people who voted for him understood that.

 

[Mattski]

So basically Americans are liberals. The entire country used to vote Democrat (1932-1980). What changed?

People started to wake up realize the D's were causing more problems than they were fixing.

 

[HallofFame]

Because most Americans would rather live in what they know and in an ignorant bliss state than wake up and face harsh realities.

 

[KitingHigh]

I think conformity and non-conformity have to co-exist. Would we be better if everyone was an anarchist? Would we be better if everyone goose-stepped? I think America has done something that certainly had never been done prior to 1776 - I think we found a balance. My beef is with people who constantly complain that America sucks. Wanna take a guess with side of the aisle burns more American flags?

I agree that both are needed, I just don't agree with both being involved with the decision making process. Now let me clarify before some conformist gets all upset. I'm not promoting non conformity for the sake of nonconformity. I'm promoting logic over conformity. Where they coincide conformity is fine. I don't think those who ignore logic jus to conform should get a voice in the process. After all, it's not their voice anyway.

 

[strummingram]

Because most Americans would rather live in what they know and in an ignorant bliss state than wake up and face harsh realities.

This cannot be overstated.

The 2-in-1 party system has made it next to impossible for any other party/candidate to be recognized. It doesn't matter which side of the political pendulum any of them may swing, the political/electoral process in most states, and nationally, make any third party handicapped, marginalized, and never allowed the same airtime, or all other exposures that are guaranteed to the 2-In-1 party system that is firmly entrenched now. It is much more difficult to even get on ballots in some states. It is interesting to me how proponents of Democracy, and those who claim to champion equal voices for all in the constituency, are also the ones who fervently seem to discourage anything but the same old 2-party choices.

It is absolutely vital to both of those parties to eliminate any and all competition that might challenge their duopoly. It's a real shame that we have 120 different choices on the cereal aisle in the grocery store, and only two candidates on a ballot will ever be considered. But, Americans willingly accept their lack of choice. The illusion of choice is all that matters.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I invite everyone who hates the republicans and democrats to explain to me why their aren't more Bernie Sanders' and Thomas Jefferson's in office?

Edit: I realize Sanders isn't a libertarian. I'm just putting him out there as a counter-weight to the tea party. Socialists and Tea Partiers seem to have something in common. Neither of them are too thrilled with the party they are affiliated with.

This an easy argument and its happenings not this thread right now.
You're the reason, the other party followers are the reason.
You immediately side with each other again the outside thinkers. Which just goes to prove that you're one the same.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

This cannot be overstated.

The 2-in-1 party system has made it next to impossible for any other party/candidate to be recognized. It doesn't matter which side of the political pendulum any of them may swing, the political/electoral process in most states, and nationally, make any third party handicapped, marginalized, and never allowed the same airtime, or all other exposures that are guaranteed to the 2-In-1 party system that is firmly entrenched now. It is much more difficult to even get on ballots in some states. It is interesting to me how proponents of Democracy, and those who claim to champion equal voices for all in the constituency, are also the ones who fervently seem to discourage anything but the same old 2-party choices.

It is absolutely vital to both of those parties to eliminate any and all competition that might challenge their duopoly. It's a real shame that we have 120 different choices on the cereal aisle in the grocery store, and only two candidates on a ballot will ever be considered. But, Americans willingly accept their lack of choice. The illusion of choice is all that matters.

Right here what Strumm and HOF said answers your question perfectly.

 

[WORTHYWISH]

So you're saying you didn't read the OP?

LOL
No, I read the OP prior to his/her edited version.