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I saw a smoking hot woman in church this morning

Originally posted by NPRLover:
I guess I just don't see much here that's worthy of banishment from the church.

Precisely.

What seems precise to me is that we are not worthy to judge what is worthy. Isn't that Jesus Christ's job? At least for those who call themselves Christians?
 
Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by hawkifann:
Precise judgments on Loog? Mostly, I don't think it's my place to judge him, mostly because his actions fell into that slightly gray area outside clear sin. I don't believe masturbation is a sin, so there's one thing out. One might argue the 'covet thy neighbor's wife' angle, but . . .
No, isn't it obvious and blatant sin according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Didn't Christ even take the 10 commandments further?

Matthew 5:27-28
- Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
- But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Originally posted by hawkifann:
I guess I just don't see much here that's worthy of banishment from the church. Then again, I'm probably just not as holy as some.
Who is better qualified to judge what Christ wants banished in his church but Christ himself? Those who refuse to repent/quit are those that he wants banished.

How do you know that I refused to repent? I came on this bb and made a confession about a certain weakness that I have. This woman is my "Bathsheba". I'm struggling with it. But instead of helping me with this weakness, and supporting me in my spiritual warfare, you jumped STRAIGHT to banishment from the church. Some brother you are.

This was your immediate reaction:

Loog, you're a sick, sick hypocrite. You bring shame instead of glory to God with posts like that. Do the world a favor and never go in a church building again.

I think you owe me an apology for this knee-jerk reaction. You need to repent.

You see, EVERYONE in church is a sick, sick hypocrite. And EVERYONE brings shame to God with their sinful actions. We are all in a constant struggle with sin, and NO ONE on this earth (other than Jesus Christ) will ever stop sinning. And that includes you. We are weak humans and we are often tempted by the pleasure of sin.

All we can do is confess our sins and try to do better next time. Nowhere in my original post did I claim that my actions were justifiable. I simple provided a narrative account of my sin and the pleasure that I derived from it. But my plan is to listen closer to the sermon on Sunday and keep my eyes from wandering to the forbidden fruit of this sweet, delectable, beautacious apple.

I will be awaiting your apology, and I would appreciate your support in my struggle.

Regards,

Loog
 
Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by NPRLover:
I guess I just don't see much here that's worthy of banishment from the church.

Precisely.

What seems precise to me is that we are not worthy to judge what is worthy. Isn't that Jesus Christ's job? At least for those who call themselves Christians?

I agree. It is JC's job. But it sounds like you're trying to do his job for him.
 
One other thing, XL. How many guys do you think occasional find their eyes wandering toward the beautiful women in church? All you can do is regain your focus and move your eyes back to the preacher. The flesh is weak.

Are we gonna kick all of these guys outta the church? If so, who decides which of these fellas is truly repentant? You? It seems that you have appointed that role for yourself.

Also, you must keep in mind the context of St. Paul's quote in 1 Cor. The sin that those folks were committing (incest) was considered far outside the social norms of the day even among the gentile population. Thus, the the fact that Christians were engaging in this sin hurt the cause of the nascent Church amongst the Gentiles.

Technically, catching a buzz, overeating, or thinking about beautiful women are all sins. Yet, the church is filled with people who do all of these things on a regular basis. Week after week. Are you gonna kick them all out? If you do, you may soon find that you have the pews all to yourself.

You have a twisted view of Christianity with an inordinate focus on Law and an underappreciation of the power and role of the Gospel.
 
And here's a helpful analogy for XL, to help him understand his judgmental and sinful response to my story.

Let's say that my friend, Tom, who is a fellow member of my church, comes to me and says "Loog, man, I gotta tell ya -- Me and HawkNate had a BLAST on Saturday night! We went out to The Down Under and partied until 2:00 in the morning! I had wayyyyyy too many beers, but dang was it fun! I was just way too drunk to drive home, so I had to call a cab. But, man, that was fun!!"

Let's say that my immediate and instant response is as follows: "Tom, you're a sick, sick hypocrite. You bring shame instead of glory to God with stories like that. Do the world a favor and never go in a church building again."

Whoa! Am I a good Christian brother in this story??? Yet, these are the EXACT words that XL posted to me in response to my story.
 
How do you know that I refused to repent? I came on this bb and made a confession about a certain weakness that I have. This woman is my "Bathsheba". I'm struggling with it.

Come on now. You did not come on here beating your chest in agony, shame, and repentance over your sin. Your post was not one of repentance but of bold proclamation that you willfully participated in lusting and even masturbating over another man's wife. There are actions that come with repentance.

Acts 26:20 - ...that they should repent and turn to God, and do works befitting for repentance.

I think you owe me an apology for this knee-jerk reaction. You need to repent.

Are you judging my actions, Loogy? Good for you. I applaud that. However, I would ask you incorporate the following words of Christ.

John 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I do not need to repent for judging your action as wrong. However, I do repent for not adding the phrase "unless you repent" to my original statement. However, I later fully explained this already.

You see, EVERYONE in church is a sick, sick hypocrite. And EVERYONE brings shame to God with their sinful actions. We are all in a constant struggle with sin, and NO ONE on this earth (other than Jesus Christ) will ever stop sinning. And that includes you. We are weak humans and we are often tempted by the pleasure of sin.

Loogy, there is a difference. Some, like you are continuing willfully in your sin thinking you are somehow covered by grace. You are practicing it. True repentance is that you stop. I have stopped continual willful sin. And so must you. It is a pipedream error of modern religion to think you are covered by grace as you practice such. The Scriptures teach the opposite.

Galatians 5:19-21
- Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
- Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
- Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Jn 3:7-8
- Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
- the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

But my plan is to listen closer to the sermon on Sunday and keep my eyes from wandering to the forbidden fruit of this sweet, delectable, beautacious apple.

I will be awaiting your apology, and I would appreciate your support in my struggle.


The first part is good.

I am supporting you. Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth? Perhaps I was the only one on here who loved you enough to rebuke you.
 
agree. It is JC's job. But it sounds like you're trying to do his job for him.

It's his job to say what to do, and it is our job to do it. I am rebuking you as I think is proper. I'm just passing on the Judges judgment. He's the one who said lusting and coveting are wrong. He's the one who said to remove unrepentant sinners from the church.
 
Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by hawkifann:
Precise judgments on Loog? Mostly, I don't think it's my place to judge him, mostly because his actions fell into that slightly gray area outside clear sin. I don't believe masturbation is a sin, so there's one thing out. One might argue the 'covet thy neighbor's wife' angle, but . . .
No, isn't it obvious and blatant sin according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Didn't Christ even take the 10 commandments further?

Matthew 5:27-28
- Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
- But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Originally posted by hawkifann:
I guess I just don't see much here that's worthy of banishment from the church. Then again, I'm probably just not as holy as some.
Who is better qualified to judge what Christ wants banished in his church but Christ himself? Those who refuse to repent/quit are those that he wants banished.

I don't take it all so literally. If he had no intention of hitting on the woman or ever making any move to have sex with her, then I don't see where the sin is to the level of 'adultery in his heart'. If he began planning ways to meet her or think of ways he might be able to woo her, then I'm with you.

I'm a happily married man and I'd never dream of cheating on my wife. Yet there are women in this world who turn my head. If that's worthy of being expelled from the church, then I don't expect many men (or women, for that matter) to be attending church this weekend.
 
One other thing, XL. How many guys do you think occasional find their eyes wandering toward the beautiful women in church? All you can do is regain your focus and move your eyes back to the preacher. The flesh is weak.

A wandering eye that is pulled back is far different than a lusting mind that locks himself in the bathroom and masturbates to another man's wife. Temptation is not sin.

Are we gonna kick all of these guys outta the church? If so, who decides which of these fellas is truly repentant? You? It seems that you have appointed that role for yourself.


We will kick all the guys out of the church who refuse to repent of their sin. Did you forget your agreement to the following verses?

1 Co 5:9-13
- I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
- Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
- But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortionerÑ not even to eat with such a person.
- For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
- But those who are outside God judges. Therefore Òput away from yourselves the evil person.Ó

Also, you must keep in mind the context of St. Paul's quote in 1 Cor. The sin that those folks were committing (incest) was considered far outside the social norms of the day even among the gentile population. Thus, the the fact that Christians were engaging in this sin hurt the cause of the nascent Church amongst the Gentiles.

First, it doesn't say it was incest. It says he had his father's wife, not necessarily his mother. Second, the verses I just stated that he later gives prove ther is a whole list of things for removing people from the church that don't have to do with this man. It even says "those who practice SUCH THINGS."

Technically, catching a buzz, overeating, or thinking about beautiful women are all sins. Yet, the church is filled with people who do all of these things on a regular basis. Week after week. Are you gonna kick them all out? If you do, you may soon find that you have the pews all to yourself.

We have to remove all who refuse to give up continous practice of a sin. We have plenty of people in our church and they are not allowed to catch a buzz or be a glutton. Why would we allow what we're told we can't allow? By your logic you have to let the child molester continue molest children and think grace will cover him. It is not true.

You have a twisted view of Christianity with an inordinate focus on Law and an underappreciation of the power and role of the Gospel.

You get on a message board extol your pleasures of lustfully jerking off to another man's wife and I have a twisted view? Think again.

You have an inordinate focus on a phantom grace and an underappreciation of God's resolve to not forgive unrepentant sin. Perhaps you should listen closer to the words of Christ instead of your own heart.

Revelation 2:20-23
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
 
I don't take it all so literally. If he had no intention of hitting on the woman or ever making any move to have sex with her, then I don't see where the sin is to the level of 'adultery in his heart'. If he began planning ways to meet her or think of ways he might be able to woo her, then I'm with you.

I will believe Christ. He said lusting after another woman is commiting adultery in the heart. We don't determine what is wrong. Christ does.

I'm a happily married man and I'd never dream of cheating on my wife. Yet there are women in this world who turn my head. If that's worthy of being expelled from the church, then I don't expect many men (or women, for that matter) to be attending church this weekend.

I did not say a turning of the head is sin. Lusting is sin. If that's lust for you then it is wrong for you. Going into the bathroom and fantasizing during masturbation is as lusting as it gets.

Why tell me about having no one in the church if such and such is true? What difference does that make? Do the majority determine truth?

Romans 3:4
- May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, ÒThat Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, And mightest prevail when Thou art judged.Ó
 
Originally posted by XLargeHawk:
Why tell me about having no one in the church if such and such is true? What difference does that make? Do the majority determine truth?




Well, at the end of the day, I think the spiritual intervention by man should be reserved for extreme situations. The majority doesn't determine the truth, God does. That's why I believe that except for the most extreme of circumstances, we welcome our brothers with open arms and let God do His work when He sees fit.
 
And here's a helpful analogy for XL, to help him understand his judgmental and sinful response to my story.

Are you judging my actions, Loogy? Good for you. However, please make it a righteous judgment.

Let's say that my friend, Tom, who is a fellow member of my church, comes to me and says "Loog, man, I gotta tell ya -- Me and HawkNate had a BLAST on Saturday night! We went out to The Down Under and partied until 2:00 in the morning! I had wayyyyyy too many beers, but dang was it fun! I was just way too drunk to drive home, so I had to call a cab. But, man, that was fun!!"

Let's say that my immediate and instant response is as follows: "Tom, you're a sick, sick hypocrite. You bring shame instead of glory to God with stories like that. Do the world a favor and never go in a church building again."

Whoa! Am I a good Christian brother in this story??? Yet, these are the EXACT words that XL posted to me in response to my story.



My response was one where I was hoping to gain your attention and shame you. At least it got your attention.

My response was following the example of other Christians in Scripture who was rebuking someone in the bondage of inquity. Your attitude was similarly sick, so I followed it.

Acts 8:18-24
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostlesÕ hands, he offered them money,
19 saying, ÒGive this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.Ó
20 But Peter said to him, ÒMay your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
21 ÒYou have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
22 ÒTherefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
23 ÒFor I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.Ó
24 But Simon answered and said, ÒPray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.Ó

The difference is that Simon was shamed and asked for help. You have just stiffened your neck and tried to justify your sin.


Galatians 4:16
- Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

Perhaps you should get the log out of your own eye before you try to get the speck out of mine?
 
Well, at the end of the day, I think the spiritual intervention by man should be reserved for extreme situations. The majority doesn't determine the truth, God does. That's why I believe that except for the most extreme of circumstances, we welcome our brothers with open arms and let God do His work when He sees fit.

Spiritual intervention is commanded at all levels by the church. You seem to think it is reserved for extreme situations for some reason. However, Christ does not. I will go with Christ and his apostles.

Matthew 18:15-18
15 ÒAnd if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 ÒBut if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 ÒAnd if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.
18 ÒTruly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
14 And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame.
15 And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral peopleÑ
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. ÒExpel the wicked man from among you.Ó
 
Matthew 18:15-18
15 ÒAnd if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 ÒBut if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 ÒAnd if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.
18 ÒTruly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


'Let him be to YOU as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer'. I read that and it tells me that I go to the person one-on-one and try to help. Then I find a group and try to talk to him in that way. Then, in extreme situations (I don't go literally for the three strikes and you're out philosophy), we go to the church and see if the church leadership can help. At that point, I no longer see the person as my Christian brother, but I still welcome him as a visitor to my church. I don't see how this contradicts the verse from Matthew 18.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
14 And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame.
15 And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.


Again, discuss the matter with the person and then decide for yourself if you wish to associate with that person. Says nothing about expulsion from the church or formal discipline from the church.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral peopleÑ
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. ÒExpel the wicked man from among you.


This is another one I just can't take literally. Each of us is a sinner, hence church is full of sinners. Who determines who is the wicked man? God will surely judge, but that happens later. I think it takes an extreme situation for a congregation of sinners to deem one amongst them as being truly 'wicked'. In my mind, Loog doesn't qualify -- at least not on the basis of the initial post.

I guess, however, that this argument is really pointless. Religion is a very personal thing and we must all abide by our beliefs. I disagree with your interpretations, but I respect your right to believe in whatever ways you choose. Neither of us is going to change the mind of the other, so if you want to declare victory in this thread, so be it.
 
I guess, however, that this argument is really pointless. Religion is a very personal thing and we must all abide by our beliefs. I disagree with your interpretations, but I respect your right to believe in whatever ways you choose. Neither of us is going to change the mind of the other, so if you want to declare victory in this thread, so be it.

Victory? Is that what this has been about for you? A contest? It sure isn't for me.

Jesus will judge you and me in the end. He will base that judgment on what he has said.

John 12:48
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Matthew 7:21-28
21 ÒNot everyone who says to me, ÔLord, Lord,Õ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ÔLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?Õ
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ÔI never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!Õ
24 ÒTherefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.Ó
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
 
It's funny, because I keep a running file in my head called womentobeatto.xml. It's constantly running and saving members. Walking around Iowa City usually results in at least 3 additions, sometimes more. The sad part is, the file keeps growing, but I have a hard time getting past number 4...ahh well, on my death bed I'll get to that last one and die really, really happy.

If masturbation is sin, check me in at 666 Sulfur Street...I have a reservation.
 
Originally posted by Sirlurksalot:
It's funny, because I keep a running file in my head called womentobeatto.xml. It's constantly running and saving members. Walking around Iowa City usually results in at least 3 additions, sometimes more. The sad part is, the file keeps growing, but I have a hard time getting past number 4...ahh well, on my death bed I'll get to that last one and die really, really happy.

If masturbation is sin, check me in at 666 Sulfur Street...I have a reservation.

So it is written.
 
Loog, you're smoking crack.

I read your post and a "confession" is about as far off as it gets. Where is the remorse for your behavior? Where is a single statement saying you are trying to change this behavior? Anyone who openly talks about jerking off to woman they saw at church and ends the post with the statement "Loog -- an admirer of the female form" isn't trying to change.

My impression is that you are proud of this, not ashamed. At least proud enough to proclaim to everyone you DO this.

I can't say I agree with the statement XL made about never going to church again, but if this is why you are going, you're wasting your time there.

Do yourself a favor and show a little self control.

"She just has a perfect body. Nice tan legs, a sweet ass, and perfect natural tits. Very, very nice.

Regards,"



Are you trying to say that sounds like a Christian who is sorry and trying to change his ways? Pipedream.
 
Some, like you are continuing willfully in your sin thinking you are somehow covered by grace. You are practicing it. True repentance is that you stop. I have stopped continual willful sin. And so must you.

You have stopped continual willful sin? All righty then. I think God needs to come take you up to heaven in a whirlwhind, Elijah-style, because you are El Perfecto. I hate to tell you this, but here on earth, we will all sin continuously and willfully for our entire lives. You can feel as bad as you want about it on Sunday, and confess it and repent, but I guarantee that you will never rid yourself of the disease of sin.

You are confusing cause-and-effect. The key question is justification. Let me quote some passages that I wrote for a Lutheran teaching guide:

Regarding justification:
God's word tells us that we are all born sinful; we have all sinned and we have all fallen short of the glory of God. So can we we ever become acceptable to God? Yes! God declares as righteous all who believe that they are acceptable to Him, and that their sins are forgiven, for the sake of Jesus Christ, who offered his life as a perfect sacrifice for their sins. Those who persist in this faith until death will be saved.

Regarding Good Works and the Christian Life:

After the Holy Spirit creates faith in our hearts, we will voluntarily do the good works that God's Word requires of us. Faith produces good works as surely as fire produces heat. However, our salvation in no way depends on the quality or quantity of good works that we complete. Moreover, good works do not maintain faith in our hearts; only the Holy Spirit maintains faith in our hearts.

In addition, only death can separate the corruption of sin from our human nature. As a result, we will never attain a perfect life here on earth; we will all continue to sin. As long as the Holy Spirit maintains faith in our hearts, however, we will daily repent from these sins and plead for God's forgiveness -- and for the sake of Jesus Christ, God will forgive us of our sins and we will be righteous in his eyes.


The only way that you become acceptable to God is to believe that your sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ. Once you believe this, good works and Christian living will follow, as surely as heat follows fire. But your salvation in no way depends on the amount of good works that you accomplish or sins that you commit here on earth.

But the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is also false. How can you lose your salvation? No amount of sin or lack of good works will cause you to lose your salvation. The only way that you will lose your salvation is if you stop believing that your sins are forgiven through JC.

And, on another subject, your obsession with "banishment from the church" is unhealthy. Let's say that you and I are fellow Christians, and we work together, and you notice that I have a problem with swearing. Now matter how hard I try, once or twice every week I let loose with a couple of f-bombs. So this is certainly continuous sin. Are you gonna kick me out of church for it? Because you're saying that "true repentance is that I stop" and I obviously haven't stopped. So, according to your logic, I haven't repented.



Lastly, NPRLover is correct that you're actions cause much more damage to the Christian church than anything Satan could dream up. What you're doing is more damaging than any sins that I commit in real life or on an internet bb. Unfortunately, you'll never realize this. If you really want to win converts to Christianity, you should focus on a positive message: tell people that there sins are forgiven through the atoning sacrifice of JC. If you go around chastising others for sinning (believers or non-believers), and talking about banishing people from church, and bragging that you have stopped continuous willful sins -- dude, that's gonna turn people off. I guarantee you. That ain't gonna get anybody too excited about going to Church on Sunday, when they think that Church is full of strict, judgmental "sin cops" like you.




This post was edited on 4/28 8:12 AM by Hawk-A-Loogeyif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 
Loog, you completely missed the point.

You're confusing a continual willful sin with the everyday sins we all commit.

In order for you to repent, you first have to make the decision you are going stop lusting after this woman and give it your best to stop. Instead of changing this premeditated decision to jerk off to her, you do it and happily let others know you do.

"If you really want to win converts to Christianity, you should focus on a positive message"

What do you know about a positive message? You honestly think you can say this expecting people take you seriously after YOU started this immoral post?
This post was edited on 4/28 8:30 AM by SonofHoundedif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 
Originally posted by SonofHounded:
Loog, you completely missed the point.

You're confusing continual willful sin with the everyday sin we all commit.

In order for you to repent, you first have to make the decision you are going stop lusting after this woman and give it your best to stop. Instead of changing this premeditated decision to jerk off to her, you do it and happily let others know you do.

Dude, you have missed the point. The everyday sin we all commit IS continuous willful sin. How hypocritical for you to tell me that MY sins are "continuous willful sin" but that YOUR sins are "everday sin that we all commit". What is the distinction?

Well, XL tells me that it depends on whether or not I have repented. But how do you know if I've repented? Can you see inside my heart? Of course not. But XL tells me the following:

You are practicing it. True repentance is that you stop. I have stopped continual willful sin. And so must you.

So let's go back to my example of the guy who swears a few times every week. He hasn't stopped. Thus, XL would tell us that he HASN'T "truly" repented, and he should be kicked out of the church. That's inane.
 
Loog, you should actually read what people type.

Here is the difference:

A continual willful sin (notice the singular "sin" and not plural "sins") is something you described in your original post. "I saw a smoking hot woman in church this morning" is the title, and what did you do about it? You jerked off to her. Since you have given us no indication that this was a single past event, we have reason to believe this behavior has since continued into the future. We can obviously reason that you continually lust after this woman. That is a CONTINUOUS and WILLFUL and SINGLE sin you haven't repented of.

Talking about the guy who swears a few times a week, is he TRYING to stop? That would be actions appropriate to repentance since he is in fact trying to stop. We know he is trying since it only happens a few times a week when he slips rather than a few times every sentence.

You, on the other hand, appear to be proud of this lust and have given us no indication you are trying to stop.
 
I will believe Christ. He said lusting after another woman is commiting adultery in the heart.

Yes, adultery in the heart and NOT in/of the body.

There's a difference. If Christ had meant viewing an attractive women to be the equivalent of "physical" adultery, then He would've just said "Lusting after another woman is commiting adultery." He did not, however; He qualified it with "in the heart".

Is seeing a piece of candy and wanting it stealing, or is it even "stealing in the heart"?

Lusting after another woman is not the same thing as actually commiting adultery. Jesus even said so with His own words.
 
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Let me give you another example.

Gormandizing is a sin. In fact, King Henry IV refused to associate with Sweet Jack Falstaff until he gave up gormandizing:

I know thee not, old man: fall to thy prayers;
How ill white hairs become a fool and jester!
I have long dream'd of such a kind of man,
So surfeit-swell'd, so old and so profane;
But, being awaked, I do despise my dream.
Make less thy body hence, and more thy grace;
Leave gormandizing; know the grave doth gape
For thee thrice wider than for other men.
Reply not to me with a fool-born jest:
Presume not that I am the thing I was;
For God doth know, so shall the world perceive,
That I have turn'd away my former self;
So will I those that kept me company.
When thou dost hear I am as I have been,
Approach me, and thou shalt be as thou wast,
The tutor and the feeder of my riots:
Till then, I banish thee, on pain of death,
As I have done the rest of my misleaders,
Not to come near our person by ten mile.
For competence of life I will allow you,
That lack of means enforce you not to evil:
And, as we hear you do reform yourselves,
We will, according to your strengths and qualities,
Give you advancement. Be it your charge, my lord,
To see perform'd the tenor of our word. Set on.


Let's say that I, under one of my alternate handles that Linc says I use, come on to HROT and post about the pleasure that I received from an evening of gormandizing at The Golden Corral. My post is full of colorful descriptions of the steaks, the chicken, the pizza, the deserts, etc. -- and I end the post by signing myself as "a lover of food".

Then, let's say that XL comes on and points out that I am a disgrace, and that I should never return to church until I have repented from my worship of food. Again, I ask you, how does he know that I haven't repented? I simply made my confession on HROT regarding the pleasures and the temptation of overeating -- but nowhere did I claim that it WASN'T a sin! And nowhere did I claim that I willfully planned to do it again. So is right for XL to tell me that I haven't repented? How does he truly KNOW this? Only God knows, and XL is NOT God.

But, XL tells me that the true test is whether I stop overeating. He tells me that "true repentance" is that I stop. Well, let's say that I feel really bad about this transgression, and that I vow not to do it again. Yet, a week or so later, I am tempted by the smells of grease as I drive by the Corral after a stressful day at work, and I pull over and wander in. And I engage in a sinful binge of overfilling my pie hole in a scandalous excess of indulgence. I shovel it in WAY past the point at which I'm full.

Well, according to XL, by DEFINITION, I really had NOT repented, because I didn't stop!
 
I still find especially humorous the reasons that XL and Hounded are giving as to why I haven't "repented". They fall in two categories:

1. It was obvious from my post that I enjoyed this sin. Who doesn't enjoy sinning? If sinning were considered painful and uncomfortable, then "temptation" would be a breeze!

2. You haven't "truly" repented until you stop sinning. By this measure, no one has ever repented.

We are flesh and blood, and we will always sin. Our works and our actions will always fall woefully short. All we can do is focus on the saving message of JC.

Others tend to focus on actions and works. They criticize other Christians for their sins and lack of good works, and they threaten to banish them from church if they don't "truly" repent and stop sinning. And they brag about how they have stopped all forms of continuous, willful sin in their lives. That's very dangerous thinking for two reasons:

1. It starts one down the slippery slope of somehow thinking that THEY, and not God, have somehow "earned" their salvation through their refusal to sin and their eagerness to do good works.

2. It turns off others from the faith.
 
The biggest issue at hand is this...
Sunday is 2 days away.
1. Are you going to church?
2. Are you finally going to get a pic of her when you are there?
 
The only way that you become acceptable to God is to believe that your sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ. Once you believe this, good works and Christian living will follow, as surely as heat follows fire. But your salvation in no way depends on the amount of good works that you accomplish or sins that you commit here on earth.

But the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is also false. How can you lose your salvation? No amount of sin or lack of good works will cause you to lose your salvation. The only way that you will lose your salvation is if you stop believing that your sins are forgiven through JC.


That Lutheran teaching guide you've come up with is a practice in the teachings of the Devil.

You're basically say that if we are to continue in sin so that grace might increase. It doesn't work that way.

Romans 6:1-6 (NKJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

You LIVE in sin. You don't hate masturbating to this woman. You just have as you said an "Oh well," attitude. You want to do and do it. I already quoted you a Scripture that those who practice sin are of the Devil and are not saved. You PRACTICE it. I do not. What is the difference? You willfuly and continuously do it. I do not. I find my self in the position of Paul.

Romans 7:14-17 (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

You said, "The only way that you will lose your salvation is if you stop believing that your sins are forgiven through JC." This is wrong. Just keep on murdering and if you believe you're sins are forgiven they are? That is about as insidious as it gets. There are plenty of verses that say you can lose salvation for other things.

Jas 2:14-20
14 What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, ÒGo in peace, be warmed and be filled,Ó and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Jas 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Pe 3:15-16 -
15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

1 Ti 5:8 -
8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Co 9:25-27 -
25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

And this is what you do not have, or choose not to have because you think grace will cover sins like you do. You do not exercise self control because you live under the mistaken idea that your are forgiven. That is the true danger and that is why you are a hypocrite.

You are a slave of the one you obey. And we can see who you obey.

Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
16 DonÕt you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeyÑwhether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Lastly, NPRLover is correct that you're actions cause much more damage to the Christian church than anything Satan could dream up. What you're doing is more damaging than any sins that I commit in real life or on an internet bb. Unfortunately, you'll never realize this. If you really want to win converts to Christianity, you should focus on a positive message:

You are as wrong as it gets. Your true nasty hypocrisy is what turns most people off. And your true nasty hypocrisy is why churches are filled with far more sin than they should be. They become walking testimonies to impotent Christianity. What a shame it is.
 
That Lutheran teaching guide you've come up with is a practice in the teachings of the Devil.


If I only had a nickel for every time I heard that.... :)


Lastly, NPRLover is correct that you're actions cause much more damage to the Christian church than anything Satan could dream up. What you're doing is more damaging than any sins that I commit in real life or on an internet bb. Unfortunately, you'll never realize this. If you really want to win converts to Christianity, you should focus on a positive message:

You are as wrong as it gets. Your true nasty hypocrisy is what turns most people off. And your true nasty hypocrisy is why churches are filled with far more sin than they should be. They become walking testimonies to impotent Christianity. What a shame it is.



Well, I guess it's not too hard to guess what my opinion is, but Loogey, and I, are not as wrong as it gets. Your tiresome, judgemental, ultimately hypocritical approach may play with your posse on Sunday but it is really a turn off for us normal people.

What is your stance on biblical literalism, XLarge? Do you think the earth is 10,000 years old? Did dinosaurs walk with man? Were dinos on the Ark? Again, those views undoubtedly play well wherever you go on Sunday, but they smell a bit funny in more respectable circles.
This post was edited on 4/28 10:27 AM by NPRLoverif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 
I still find especially humorous the reasons that XL and Hounded are giving as to why I haven't "repented". They fall in two categories:

1. It was obvious from my post that I enjoyed this sin. Who doesn't enjoy sinning? If sinning were considered painful and uncomfortable, then "temptation" would be a breeze!

2. You haven't "truly" repented until you stop sinning. By this measure, no one has ever repented.

We are flesh and blood, and we will always sin. Our works and our actions will always fall woefully short. All we can do is focus on the saving message of JC.


This is a misrepresentation of my belief and the Scriptures. We will always have sin, but we don't always have to walk in premeditated, willful, continuous sin. Again, there is a difference between practicing drunkeness and someone who hates getting drunk but then in a moment of depression gets drunk. One is a lifestyle, the other a hated moment of sin that is at least slowly being eradicated.

All you can do is focus on the message? How about focus on letting Him eradicate this practice of sin from your life? You don't because you think grace covers it. This is error.

Others tend to focus on actions and works. They criticize other Christians for their sins and lack of good works, and they threaten to banish them from church if they don't "truly" repent and stop sinning. And they brag about how they have stopped all forms of continuous, willful sin in their lives. That's very dangerous thinking for two reasons:

1. It starts one down the slippery slope of somehow thinking that THEY, and not God, have somehow "earned" their salvation through their refusal to sin and their eagerness to do good works.

2. It turns off others from the faith.


This is incorrect. I do not brag about anything. I thank God he has helped me remove sin. I have more to work on and always will. I in no way think I earn my salvation, nor do the millions who think like me.

Your hypocritical practice is what makes the world laugh at Christianity.

Romans 2:21-24
21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
24 As it is written: ÒGodÕs name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.Ó
 
Originally posted by NPRLover:
I will believe Christ. He said lusting after another woman is commiting adultery in the heart.

Yes, adultery in the heart and NOT in/of the body.

There's a difference.

There is a difference but both are sin. That is the point.
 
Originally posted by NPRLover:
Well, I guess it's not too hard to guess what my opinion is, but Loogey, and I, are not as wrong as it gets. Your tiresome, judgemental, ultimately hypocritical approach may play with your posse on Sunday but it is really a turn off for us normal people.

Your problem is that you think you are normal. You are not.
 
Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Let me give you another example.

Gormandizing is a sin. . . . Well, according to XL, by DEFINITION, I really had NOT repented, because I didn't stop!

If you continue to be a glutton you will lose your salvation. However, I do not believe that eating at a buffet until you've had your fill is necessarily a sin. There are things such as feasts, you know. Gluttony is a way of life. The Romans had vomitoriums.

If you truly believe it is wrong then you will eventually eradicate that practice from your life. You may struggle with that sin, but if you fully admit it is wrong and you truly hate doing it, you will improve. That's a far cry from knowing it's wrong and deciding to keep it as a lifestyle.
 
Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Let me give you another example.

Gormandizing is a sin. . . . Well, according to XL, by DEFINITION, I really had NOT repented, because I didn't stop!

However, I do not believe that eating at a buffet until you've had your fill is necessarily a sin. There are things such as feasts, you know. Gluttony is a way of life.

Hmmmmmm. I'm starting to smell something suspicious here from the poster who goes by the name of "XLargeHawk". Maybe carrying a few extra pounds, my friend? Maybe have a little trouble pushing away from that buffet table? Is perhaps your relationship with food more important than your relationship with God? Attached is a link on what the Bible says about gluttony.

Maybe your quote shows us how easy it is for us to rationalize our own sins while we condemn our neighbors for their sins.

Perhaps you need to repent. How will we know when you have repented? We will know when you stop the sinful action, which will manifest itself in your bodily appearance. So perhaps a more cynical Christian would tell you "don't even bother coming back to church until you've lost that extra weight!"

I'm starting to smell something cookin' in here. No, not baked apples and ham. Hypocrisy. Served with a nice white whine.



gluttony
 
If you continue to be a glutton you will lose your salvation.

Does the rising tide of US obesity mean more people going to Hell?

I guess you could be a glutton without being obese but the two do seem to go hand in hand.

Why not use obesity as a first indicator, or proxy, for gluttony? We would not condone drunken people going to church so why should we accept fat people? At least make them prove, if not to God, then to people like XLarge, that they indeed are not gluttons.

What about people who have had their penises cut off? Hell bound, according to the bible.



But it is amusing to see Loog run circles around XLarge.
This post was edited on 4/28 11:23 AM by NPRLoverif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 
Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Hmmmmmm. I'm starting to smell something suspicious here from the poster who goes by the name of "XLargeHawk". Maybe carrying a few extra pounds, my friend? Maybe have a little trouble pushing away from that buffet table? Is perhaps your relationship with food more important than your relationship with God? Attached is a link on what the Bible says about gluttony.

Are you judging my actions, Loogy? Good for you. However, please use righteous judgment in doing so. No, I am not extra large because of buffets. How big does one have to be to wear a mere XLarge shirt? Not too big.

I know what the Bible says about gluttony. I need no help from you on this matter.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Maybe your quote shows us how easy it is for us to rationalize our own sins while we condemn our neighbors for their sins.

Maybe you've made a premature judgment.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Perhaps you need to repent. How will we know when you have repented? We will know when you stop the sinful action, which will manifest itself in your bodily appearance. So perhaps a more cynical Christian would tell you "don't even bother coming back to church until you've lost that extra weight!"

If I was involved in gluttony and proudly proclaimed for all to hear I would love it if a Christian came up to me and told me not to come back until I was determined to repent of that sin.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
I'm starting to smell something cookin' in here. No, not baked apples and ham. Hypocrisy. Served with a nice white whine.

First get the log out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to get the speck out of mine. But you see that's your problem. You're in a lose/lose situation. You willfuly sin and are yet qualified to help other Christians. With you it would be the blind leading the blind. And when they do that they both fall into a pit.
You do not understand repentance. Repentance is not just being sorrowful. Paul explains that.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10
9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

"Repent" is from a word that means "to change direction, or turn." Therefore there ARE observable deeds that come with repentance.

Acts 26:20
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Prove your repentance. Quit masturbating to other mens' wives.
 
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
Why not use obesity as a first indicator, or proxy, for gluttony? We would not condone drunken people going to church so why should we accept fat people? At least make them prove, if not to God, then to people like XLarge, that they indeed are not gluttons.


If peoples' goals are to come to church to be healed, instead of merely justifying their sin, then I happily accept all those fat, gluttonous people. If they're going to sit and brag about how big a glutton they are every week and tell people they're going to go to the buffet to practice some gluttony after church then we're going to have a problem.
 
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
What is your stance on biblical literalism, XLarge? Do you think the earth is 10,000 years old? Did dinosaurs walk with man? Were dinos on the Ark? >
Still waiting for the answer on this one...
 
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Originally posted by BlazeOrange:

Originally posted by NPRLover:
What is your stance on biblical literalism, XLarge? Do you think the earth is 10,000 years old? Did dinosaurs walk with man? Were dinos on the Ark? >
Still waiting for the answer on this one...

If he believes this then why should Xlarge hide his light under a bushel?

Is he ashamed of these beliefs, if in fact he does hold them? Or does he think his credibility will be lessened if he spouts such leanings?

It was a sad day when fundamentalism took hold in American religion.
 
Originally posted by BlazeOrange:

Originally posted by NPRLover:
What is your stance on biblical literalism, XLarge? Do you think the earth is 10,000 years old? Did dinosaurs walk with man? Were dinos on the Ark? >
Still waiting for the answer on this one...
I, also, am still waiting for answers. But you didn't notice those did you?

I did not answer because this truly doesn't have anything to do with the thread title. NPRLOVER is an antagonist and wants to change the topic. I won't allow him to do that.
 
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