POLL: Should We Invest More on Our Rail and Train System?

[What Would Jesus Do?]

According to 2 news shows, Congress has approved $1.4 billion to spend on our rail system, per year for the next 4 years. China is spending $128 billion this year. Sure, we aren't starting from the same point, but does that make sense?

Translate that into GDP terms and the gap widens further.

We are spending 0.0083% of GDP.

China is spending 1.38% of GDP.

OK, the obvious criticism is that our number doesn't include state and local spending. But is it 200 times as much as the federal spending?

 

[Doodads and Hoohah]

Yes, 100 times more

 

[hawkeye54545]

Would be interested on how much damage big rigs do to the roads in dollars compared to what increased rail would be and which would save the most.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Would be interested on how much damage big rigs do to the roads in dollars compared to what increased rail would be and which would save the most.

Good thought.

Another consideration is the presumed energy savings if we make rail a more attractive option.

 

[naturalmwa]

I'm sure the market will take care of it.

 

[LuteHawk]

The Teamsters Union is not going to take its trucks off
the Interstates any time soon. As our highways crumble
due to overweight semi's we need a solution. Rail service
could be the answer but the cost is not in the Federal
budget.

 

[naturalmwa]

The Teamsters Union is not going to take its trucks off
the Interstates any time soon. As our highways crumble
due to overweight semi's we need a solution. Rail service
could be the answer but the cost is not in the Federal
budget.

Right, that's what the poll was asking, if you think it should be.

 

[Titus Andronicus]

1.) We need to figure out what we are going to do about our pipeline system first. Right now we have a huge amount of crude oil traffic on the rail lines that could be diverted to pipelines. Once we get some additional pipelines built, the pressure for upgrades will be somewhat reduced.

.................................................................................................

2.) In general, the population in the U.S. is so dispersed that trucks will continue to be more practical for general freight. (or at least a combination of shipping by rail and then by truck for the last leg.)

...........................................................................................................................................................................

Side note: The NTSB just issued some new and draconian safety standards for rail cars transporting crude oil. These include expensive new braking systems along with lots of safety upgrades to the cars themselves. The cost to the train operators is at this point estimated in the many billions of dollars and will add bunches of dollars to the cost of shipping a barrel of crude oil.

 

[BGHAWK]

The worst mistake this country has made in the last 75 years is letting our rail system go in the dumpster in my opinion. One train eliminates 100 trucks beating our road system to pot.

 

[pablow]

Corporate welfare/crony capitalism issues? Can't Warren Buffet invest his own money.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Side note: The NTSB just issued some new and draconian safety standards for rail cars transporting crude oil. These include expensive new braking systems along with lots of safety upgrades to the cars themselves. The cost to the train operators is at this point estimated in the many billions of dollars and will add bunches of dollars to the cost of shipping a barrel of crude oil.

The cost of preventing spills and disasters SHOULD be reflected in the cost of using these energy sources.

As should the cost of cleanups. As should the costs of ameliorating the harm of climate change .

 

[IMCC965]

Why is it when a disaster of ANY type happens, the progressives say it needs more money to work correctly?

And as far as transportation of oil, a pipeline is much safer than rail or truck. So what's the problem?

 

[THE_DEVIL]

The cost of preventing spills and disasters SHOULD be reflected in the cost of using these energy sources.

As should the cost of cleanups. As should the costs of ameliorating the harm of climate change .

 

[naturalmwa]

Why is it when a disaster of ANY type happens, the progressives say it needs more money to work correctly?

And as far as transportation of oil, a pipeline is much safer than rail or truck. So what's the problem?

Do you realize that more money for a pipeline is in fact more money to make the system work correctly, right? Are you a liberal now?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

1. Why is it when a disaster of ANY type happens, the progressives say it needs more money to work correctly?

2. And as far as transportation of oil, a pipeline is much safer than rail or truck. So what's the problem?

1. If you had been paying any attention you'd know that progressives, along with the nation's engineers and others, have been saying this for a while. Why is it that EVEN when disasters prove our point in tragic ways, conservatives still ignore reality and trot out their knee-jerk cliches?

2. Do you somehow think pipelines are safe? And even if you do, why would stupidly continuing to use fossil fuels at a high rate, become smart just because we are being stupid in a less spill-prone way? Sure, shooting heroin with clean needles is better than with dirty needles, but it's still shooting heroin.

Interesting to note that you completely ignore the question of harm to passengers in disasters like this one. It's all about the pipeline. Brainwashed much?

 

[HallofFame]

http://hyperlooptech.com/

This is the correct answer.

 

[joelbc1]

This AM on "Morning Joe" they interviewed the mayor(s) of NYC and Oklahoma City. These guys are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum. However BOTH agreed it is time for America to step up and adequately fund the many areas of public transit, be it subways, interstate highways, air or rail. The current US system of transportation is a good 30 years out of date and we keep putting more and more stress on it. Meanwhile Europe and China are pouring huge chunks of their GDP into mass transit systems and their maintenance and updating. I believe the graph shown today showed China is spending 5Xs the money the US spends on mass transit.
Practically speaking...look at the jobs that could be influenced by increased spending on updating and expanding the nation's infrastructure.

 

[HallofFame]

This AM on "Morning Joe" they interviewed the mayor(s) of NYC and Oklahoma City. These guys are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum. However BOTH agreed it is time for America to step up and adequately fund the many areas of public transit, be it subways, interstate highways, air or rail. The current US system of transportation is a good 30 years out of date and we keep putting more and more stress on it. Meanwhile Europe and China are pouring huge chunks of their GDP into mass transit systems and their maintenance and updating. I believe the graph shown today showed China is spending 5Xs the money the US spends on mass transit.
Practically speaking...look at the jobs that could be influenced by increased spending on updating and expanding the nation's infrastructure.

Print and spend

 

[linkshero]

Soo, we're comparing freight travel with human transportation now? Apples and Oranges

Logistically, a high percentage of rail freight in this country is land bridge only, and I don't see that changing.

 

[Lone Clone]

According to 2 news shows, Congress has approved $1.4 billion to spend on our rail system, per year for the next 4 years. China is spending $128 billion this year. Sure, we aren't starting from the same point, but does that make sense?

Translate that into GDP terms and the gap widens further.

We are spending 0.0083% of GDP.

China is spending 1.38% of GDP.

OK, the obvious criticism is that our number doesn't include state and local spending. But is it 200 times as much as the federal spending?

First of all, comparisons to other countries are totally bogus. They aren't comparable in any sense relevant to this discussion.
Second, what are we going to spend the money on? The wreck today doesn't appear to have had anything to do with equipment or trackage deficiencies. Sounds like human error, pure and simple. And we don't need to spend money on unnecessary and/or duplicative service, like the proposed Boondoggle Express from Chicago to Iowa City.
Third, just to make it clear where I'm coming from to those who haven't seen previous discussions of this topic, I'm a big railroad fan and supporter who probably has ridden more on long-distance trains than anyone else posting on the subject. I have very, very little experience with the NE corridor commuters, though. Have ridden between Washington and Baltimore a couple of times, that's it.

 

[Arbitr8]

The Teamsters Union is not going to take its trucks off
the Interstates any time soon. As our highways crumble
due to overweight semi's we need a solution. Rail service
could be the answer but the cost is not in the Federal
budget.

The money Berries wasted on the debacle named "the stimulus" could have built the greatest passenger rail system in the world.

 

[joelbc1]

First of all, comparisons to other countries are totally bogus. They aren't comparable in any sense relevant to this discussion.
Second, what are we going to spend the money on? The wreck today doesn't appear to have had anything to do with equipment or trackage deficiencies. Sounds like human error, pure and simple. And we don't need to spend money on unnecessary and/or duplicative service, like the proposed Boondoggle Express from Chicago to Iowa City.
Third, just to make it clear where I'm coming from to those who haven't seen previous discussions of this topic, I'm a big railroad fan and supporter who probably has ridden more on long-distance trains than anyone else posting on the subject. I have very, very little experience with the NE corridor commuters, though. Have ridden between Washington and Baltimore a couple of times, that's it.

"Human error" certainly was a leading cause of the crash Lone.....However, there is a piece of computerized equipment available that would automatically govern the train's speed at that particular corner. IOf that piece of equipment would have been installed this accident probably would not have happened. I can't think of the name of the equipment (its 3 initials) but they are currently used extensively in Europe, Japan and China with their high speed trains.
Also, DiBlasio spoke about the BILLIONS of dollars lost by American business annually as employees are routinely stuck in traffic (road and subway). DiBlasio spoke of one day in NYC, 6 MILLION passengers rode the subway system in one 24 hour time span. The OKC mayor spoke about two major entrances to an interstate that crosses OKC that are being closed today for (temporary) repairs and numerous bridges within the city that are in dire need of major repairs before something more serious occurs.
Pooh pooh it all you want Lone.......this nation's infrastructure is in severe need of updating. We need to find the money to afford the updates.

 

[Arbitr8]

"Human error" certainly was a leading cause of the crash Lone.....However, there is a piece of computerized equipment available that would automatically govern the train's speed at that particular corner. IOf that piece of equipment would have been installed this accident probably would not have happened. I can't think of the name of the equipment (its 3 initials) but they are currently used extensively in Europe, Japan and China with their high speed trains.
Also, DiBlasio spoke about the BILLIONS of dollars lost by American business annually as employees are routinely stuck in traffic (road and subway). DiBlasio spoke of one day in NYC, 6 MILLION passengers rode the subway system in one 24 hour time span. The OKC mayor spoke about two major entrances to an interstate that crosses OKC that are being closed today for (temporary) repairs and numerous bridges within the city that are in dire need of major repairs before something more serious occurs.
Pooh pooh it all you want Lone.......this nation's infrastructure is in severe need of updating. We need to find the money to afford the updates.[/QUOTE

I'm surprised all those shovel ready jobs Obozo promised didn't fix all of the above when he fleeced the taxpayers out of a trillion dollars for the stimulus

 

[Lone Clone]

"Human error" certainly was a leading cause of the crash Lone.....However, there is a piece of computerized equipment available that would automatically govern the train's speed at that particular corner. IOf that piece of equipment would have been installed this accident probably would not have happened. I can't think of the name of the equipment (its 3 initials) but they are currently used extensively in Europe, Japan and China with their high speed trains.
Also, DiBlasio spoke about the BILLIONS of dollars lost by American business annually as employees are routinely stuck in traffic (road and subway). DiBlasio spoke of one day in NYC, 6 MILLION passengers rode the subway system in one 24 hour time span. The OKC mayor spoke about two major entrances to an interstate that crosses OKC that are being closed today for (temporary) repairs and numerous bridges within the city that are in dire need of major repairs before something more serious occurs.
Pooh pooh it all you want Lone.......this nation's infrastructure is in severe need of updating. We need to find the money to afford the updates.

Sigh.

I said nothing about the need to update the nation's infrastructure. That wasn't the topic. That wasn't the question in the poll.

If the question is whether we should install an inexpensive device to keep trains from going 56 mph faster than they are supposed to, I would vote "yes."

 

[pepsicock]

The idiot was doing 107 mph. NO

 

[HawkEngineer]

Spend more on rail between major cities that are relatively near one another? Heck yes

Spend more money on rail from Chicago to Iowa City? God no.....

Fix highway trust fund to focus on roads and funding to account more fuel efficient vehicles? Yes

CTA busses all over Chicago yet they pay no gas tax, making that $2.25 ride even cheaper

 

[Titus Andronicus]

The cost of preventing spills and disasters SHOULD be reflected in the cost of using these energy sources.

As should the cost of cleanups. As should the costs of ameliorating the harm of climate change .

I do not necessarily disagree with your point. It just seems less risky to ship anything we can ship by pipeline by pipeline. Shipping by pipeline would be much cheaper rather than ever more expensive.

......................

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I do not necessarily disagree with your point. It just seems less risky to ship anything we can ship by pipeline by pipeline. Shipping by pipeline would be much cheaper rather than ever more expensive.

......................

I have always agreed that if the argument comes down to pipelines vs tanker truck or tanker railraod cars, it may be possible to make a good case for pipelines. I'm not sure about that - some say the leak history of pipelines casts that in doubt - but it seems plausible.

And I agree that transportation costs when comparing tanker trucks on highways vs tanker cars on rail vs pipelines should give the advantages to rail over trucks and probably pipelines over rail (although I haven't seen the data on pipelines vs rail). If transportation costs are all you are looking at.

But neither of those means we should do pipelines. Sure, we will still be using fossil fuels for a while even if we get serious about addressing the dangers. But should we invest in a major fossil energy infrastructure at the same time that we should be curbing our appetite for these world-damaging energy sources?

We already have trucks and rail and significant pipelines. If we are going to invest in more energy production and energy transport capacity, why not put that money into renewables and upgrading our energy grid? That's the sensible commitment for the future.

Arguing for pipelines (and fracking and other ways to enhance our fossil energy commitment) when we should be going greener is like a person who needs to go on a diet buying a lot of junk food because it's on sale. Yes, it's a good deal - but only if you don't look at the big picture.

 

[strummingram]

Should we? Which we is us?

 

[h-hawk]

In my lifetime - almost 60 years, the railroads have shrunk, abandoning much of their old lines. Wonder if putting more money into rail (other than to make it safer) would make any difference at this point. Here is a map of the abandonments.
http://publications.iowa.gov/15457/1/Chronology of Iowa Railroad Abandonments.pdf

 

[hawkitd]

I'm sure the market will take care of it.

For once, you are correct on an economic issue. That is why there is limited train service in America - it doesn't make economic sense. The exceptions are the crowded eastern seaboard cities & Chicago.

 

[strummingram]

Let's get legislation passed to force more revenue into newspapers, land-line telephones and 8-track tape players,

 

[Lone Clone]

Let's get legislation passed to force more revenue into newspapers, land-line telephones and 8-track tape players,

Don't forget buggy whips and laserdisk players.

 

[naturalmwa]

For once, you are correct on an economic issue. That is why there is limited train service in America - it doesn't make economic sense. The exceptions are the crowded eastern seaboard cities & Chicago.

You seem to be saying that you think the rail lines in the east and around Chicago,were entirely market funded. I wonder if that's true?

 

[SigMaintHawk]

"Human error" certainly was a leading cause of the crash Lone.....However, there is a piece of computerized equipment available that would automatically govern the train's speed at that particular corner. IOf that piece of equipment would have been installed this accident probably would not have happened. I can't think of the name of the equipment (its 3 initials) but they are currently used extensively in Europe, Japan and China with their high speed trains.
Also, DiBlasio spoke about the BILLIONS of dollars lost by American business annually as employees are routinely stuck in traffic (road and subway). DiBlasio spoke of one day in NYC, 6 MILLION passengers rode the subway system in one 24 hour time span. The OKC mayor spoke about two major entrances to an interstate that crosses OKC that are being closed today for (temporary) repairs and numerous bridges within the city that are in dire need of major repairs before something more serious occurs.
Pooh pooh it all you want Lone.......this nation's infrastructure is in severe need of updating. We need to find the money to afford the updates.

The "system" you are talking about is called, PTC-Positive Train Control. I've been installing this stuff for the past few years. Still a long way to go.....

 

[INXS83]

According to 2 news shows, Congress has approved $1.4 billion to spend on our rail system, per year for the next 4 years. China is spending $128 billion this year. Sure, we aren't starting from the same point, but does that make sense?

Translate that into GDP terms and the gap widens further.

We are spending 0.0083% of GDP.

China is spending 1.38% of GDP.

OK, the obvious criticism is that our number doesn't include state and local spending. But is it 200 times as much as the federal spending?

If by 'we' you mean via the government (aka taxes) then no. The RR's are rich. Let them spend the money on infrastructure, thus creating more sustainable jobs.

 

[KennyPowers_96]

The "system" you are talking about is called, PTC-Positive Train Control. I've been installing this stuff for the past few years. Still a long way to go.....

Is there a reason this PTC system was not installed or in use in this case?

 

[SigMaintHawk]

Is there a reason this PTC system was not installed or in use in this case?

I don't know the answer to that. I've been installing this stuff in Mo,Il,In,OH, and Al, so far. There was a delay, across the US, when the Native Americans found out a couple railroads were installing antennas without the proper permits. I have no idea if that delay effected this line or not. That is not the only delay, but it did cause a few slowdowns in the continued installation across the country.

 

[Vroom_C14]

I still think Americans in general like the "freedom" of driving themselves around. I am not big on PT, but with our Interstates and the like nearly requiring off-road suspension... Rail can certainly do wonders I think for both public and commerce transport. With that said they CANNOT run on the same systems\rails\etc., "hauling" rail should have a lower speed limit than "public" rail. As well, public rail should mimic EU\SEA rail as they are leading the world in this field.

This would also make airline travel\transport more competitive (I think).

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If by 'we' you mean via the government (aka taxes) then no. The RR's are rich. Let them spend the money on infrastructure, thus creating more sustainable jobs.

Who's stopping them?

Your "solution" hasn't produced good results. Underfunding public transport hasn't produced such great results either.

Investing in the kind of future we'd like to have - as identified through informed public debate - might be worth trying. For a change.