Small Ball/3 and D Lineup

[CAHawk93]

I think the Hawks could do something similar in style to what the warriors do with a lengthy, but shorter lineup:

PG: Gesell
SG: Jok
SF: Hutton (not quite sure on range)
PF: Uthoff
C: Jones

Don't know about Gesell, but someone needs to play thay doesn't turn the ball over like crazy. Also, I don't know about Hutton shooting the ball with consistent accuracy, but from whay I've heard here, he has some range and he's a great defensive stopper. A third unknown about this lineup is Jone's defense. Still, this lineup intrigues me.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

 

[nu2u]

I would sub Uhl for Hutton at SF until Hutton or Wagner prove to be a better option. Can't wait to see what those two have to offer. Uhl might be ready for a break out type of season now that he is out from behind White's shadow, although he still has a great deal to prove also.

Not sure what you meant by the Gesell comment as he has proven to be a reliable ball handler.

 

[CAHawk93]

Yeah I meant not sure about his shooting, but he needs to be in there cause he doesn't turn the ball over. My bad.

 

[nu2u]

I saw the "small ball" but initially missed the "D" part of your topic header. You may be right playing Hutton at SF if defense is being emphasized. Just about every scouting report on Hutton I've seen mentions his advanced defensive skills. If true, iIt will be really nice having a player like Hutton the next 4 years.

 

[jdv77]

I certainly think that we will see something like this. You would think that Woodbury, at most, is going to play 30 minutes a night, and probably more in the neighborhood of 25 minutes. So there will be plenty of time when we don't have a conventional center on the floor.

My "short" defensive team would probably be:

PG Clemmons
SG Moss
SF Uthoff
PF Wagner
C Jones

Uthoff is such a unique defensive player at SF. I don't think you would want him defending in the post, but he will get you a lot of blocked shots against wing players.

I put in Wagner at PF because I think he is a freak athlete, and because I expect Uhl will still be right around 200 pounds.

I put Moss in at SG as a projection. Jok is not a great defender, although he improved last year. Moss has long arms and good athleticism.

I think that you have to go with Clemmons over Gesell defensively, although Gesell is a good defender.

And Dale Jones goes into the C spot, defensively, because while the premise of the OP was a small defensive lineup, we don't want to be ridiculously small.

It would (will) be fun to watch that group get up and down the floor.

 

[DanL53]

It is going to be fun fooling around with various scenarios and lineups all the way until the start of the 2015/16 season. And I'm enjoying this conversation. My small ball defensive lineup would be:

Gesell
Clemmons
Hutton
Uthoff
Wagner

I have no trouble trusting our seniors, they both did very well on defense last season. Hutton of course is reported to be a defensive stopper. Uthoff, I almost switched he and Hutton as Hutton is known for guarding the 1-4 very well. But I like Uthoff's shot blocking and would like him under the basket, or switch them depending on who the power forward we're guarding happens to be. And Wagner, it's been reported that on his All Ohio Red squad he was often called upon to guard the biggest opponent. That included Henry Ellenson in one game and supposedly Wagner did very well.

Of course, Uhl is a good defender. I haven't heard a thing about Jones on defense. Williams is supposed to have the raw talent and with his 7' wingspan? Imagine that covering a guard!

And when we need it, and we're ready to drop small ball at least at the post, we've got one of the Big Ten's best defenders in Woodbury.

 

[hansenhawk]

The B1G teams with decent size are going to absolutely pound away at us anytime Woody is not in the game.

Not sure how you get around that.

 

[DanL53]

The B1G teams with decent size are going to absolutely pound away at us anytime Woody is not in the game.

Not sure how you get around that.

2012/13 was the best defensive team we've had since McCaffery was hired as coach. That team included sophomore Olaseni and frosh Woodbury. Combined they played 27.2 minutes per game. The other two players we used at center were McCabe and Basabe, both 6'7". The way we get around the bigs pounding away on us is to front them, use multiple players so no one gets beat down, quickness, etc., essentially what we did three seasons ago. We do need to get all the minutes we can out of Woody, but a senior Woody at 27.2 mpg would be an improvement over freshman Woody in 2012/13, I'm sure.

And, back then? We saw players like Cody Zeller, Adreian Payne, Mitch McGary, it wasn't as if the Big Ten had no post players.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

Small ball is a recipe for disaster. Hawks have had one NCAA appearances in the last 45 years in which our starting center was under 6'8", and that was the freak line up in 88. Woodbury needs to be an iron man next year and the 2016 class has to add one/two big boys in the middle. (Assuming another transfer frees up a schollie; the annual transfers seem to be a common occurrence these days in college).

Hawks wanna be big as many minutes as possible. We will need Jones and Wagner to play big to have any depth inside at all. Cannot go smaller than Jones or Wagner in the deep post, I'm terrified to imagine what happens when we face that Hitlerjugden from Purdue and their other 7+ center (isn't Hammond like 28, 29 by now?) or the beef in the land of the Spartan or the Frankenstein monsters that sprout in the land of the Red Rodent.

All of which is a long winded way of saying......when Hawks go small they will need 3 good three point shooters to keep the floor open. Hard to know how that will shake out with some many new faces.

 

[DanL53]

Small ball is a recipe for disaster. Hawks have had one NCAA appearances in the last 45 years in which our starting center was under 6'8", and that was the freak line up in 88. Woodbury needs to be an iron man next year and the 2016 class has to add one/two big boys in the middle. (Assuming another transfer frees up a schollie; the annual transfers seem to be a common occurrence these days in college).

Hawks wanna be big as many minutes as possible. We will need Jones and Wagner to play big to have any depth inside at all. Cannot go smaller than Jones or Wagner in the deep post, I'm terrified to imagine what happens when we face that Hitlerjugden from Purdue and their other 7+ center (isn't Hammond like 28, 29 by now?) or the beef in the land of the Spartan or the Frankenstein monsters that sprout in the land of the Red Rodent.

All of which is a long winded way of saying......when Hawks go small they will need 3 good three point shooters to keep the floor open. Hard to know how that will shake out with some many new faces.

Since our starting center is going to be 7'1" I'm not sure how your example applies. As to under 6'8", Uhl, Uthoff and Evans are all 6'8" or taller. For that matter we might find if we're lucky that Wagner has grown to 6'8". If I can ask, exactly how many lineups has Iowa even HAD in the last 45 years that didn't include a 6'8" or taller center?

Cole, 2010/11, McCaffery's first year? How tall was Jaacks during Alford's first season? Or maybe the year we had James Winters at center? I can't think of any more, there must be, but you've looked them up I guess. I haven't.

 

[BBHawk]

My "small" ball team:
Gesell
Jok
Uthoff
Uhl
Jones

All 5 are offensive threats.
3 of the 5 are legit from the 3, with the other 2 showing signs of being legit.
3 can rebound. Well.
All 5 can handle the rock and run like deer.
All 3 interior players are very long as well as leapers. Lots of hands in the passing lanes on defense.

 

[hawk-i bob]

Iowa went undefeated in the Big Ten with a lineup of 6'8" 6'7" 6'6" 6'3" 6'1...and lost to a team in the NCAA that had a front line of 7'1" 7'0" 6'10"...by 1 point. Height alone is not the only determining factor for success.
7'1" 6'9" 6'8" 6'6" 6'2" ... for a starting lineup is not small.

obviously the question is when Woody is on the bench..we could be at 6'9" 6'8" (6'8" or 6'7") in the front line..

..what I like..is we could have 2 stretch 4's in the game at the same time...Uthoff 6'9" & Jones 6'8"...that will create some matchup issues for our opponents....looking forward to see how successful Iowa defends when Woody is on the bench.

 

[hawk-i bob]

total guess..Iowa's top 8 in minutes:
PG Gesell 6'2" Clemmons 6'2"
G Jok 6'6" Moss 6'5"
F Uthoff 6'9" Uhl 6'8"
F Jones 6'8"
C Woodbury 7'1"

#9 - Wagner 6'7"
#10/#11- Ellingson 6'4" / Fleming 6'5"

#12 - Williams 6'5" - if he plays..its to get point experience
#13- Hutton 6'6" - leading redshirt candidate

 

[DanL53]

total guess..Iowa's top 8 in minutes:
PG Gesell 6'2" Clemmons 6'2"
G Jok 6'6" Moss 6'5"
F Uthoff 6'9" Uhl 6'8"
F Jones 6'8"
C Woodbury 7'1"

#9 - Wagner 6'7"
#10/#11- Ellingson 6'4" / Fleming 6'5"

#12 - Williams 6'5" - if he plays..its to get point experience
#13- Hutton 6'6" - leading redshirt candidate

As good a guess as any.

 

[Ronman]

I just don't understand making any predictions for playing time until we've seen the cast of characters, to choose from, in action. I'm really hoping that one of the eight new comers (counting Ellingson and Baer)will dazzle us this summer and fall.

 

[Legend12]

My "small" ball team:
Gesell
Jokj
Uthoff
Uhl
Jones

All 5 are offensive threats.
3 of the 5 are legit from the 3, with the other 2 showing signs of being legit.
3 can rebound. Well.
All 5 can handle the rock and run like deer.
All 3 interior players are very long as well as leapers. Lots of hands inthe passing lanes on defense.

After reading this I think Fran should be fired if the team doesn't win at least 30 games.

 

[CanadaHawk]

The seniors, Jok, Jones, and Uhl. These are the guys who are going to get the bulk of minutes. However, I agree with the OP, in that Hutton has to be included in an all-D team. Under McCaffery, anyone who gets minutes is going to have to play D, even the shooters. Hutton could have a leg up there as the first physical, athletic, defensive wing we've had since Eric May. And you know Fran played May plenty even when his offense wasn't very pretty. But Ronman's right in that we can't really know anything other than returnees and Jones are likely to form the bulk of the rotation.

 

[hansenhawk]

I don't see Hutton red shirting next season, he may be one of our better defenders down low.

 

[moondog24]

Iowa went undefeated in the Big Ten with a lineup of 6'8" 6'7" 6'6" 6'3" 6'1...and lost to a team in the NCAA that had a front line of 7'1" 7'0" 6'10"...by 1 point. Height alone is not the only determining factor for success.
7'1" 6'9" 6'8" 6'6" 6'2" ... for a starting lineup is not small.

obviously the question is when Woody is on the bench..we could be at 6'9" 6'8" (6'8" or 6'7") in the front line..

..what I like..is we could have 2 stretch 4's in the game at the same time...Uthoff 6'9" & Jones 6'8"...that will create some matchup issues for our opponents....looking forward to see how successful Iowa defends when Woody is on the bench.

But the Iowa team that lost to Jacksonville had two legitimate NBA players (John Johnson and Freddy Brown). Next year's team won't have any.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

Jaacks is 6'8"-terrible season. Winters was another freak line up, that ended up with a terrible record. Iowa has never won going small. Even the Kent Hill freak line up featured 6'8" forwards in Horton and Lorentzen, and a 7'1" sophomore center Leslie Jepsen. Going back to 1970, which was one year further back than I looked. There just isn't much history of Iowa winning with small line ups since I left junior high in 1974.

 

[DanL53]

Jaacks is 6'8"-terrible season. Winters was another freak line up, that ended up with a terrible record. Iowa has never won going small. Even the Kent Hill freak line up featured 6'8" forwards in Horton and Lorentzen, and a 7'1" sophomore center Leslie Jepsen. Going back to 1970, which was one year further back than I looked. There just isn't much history of Iowa winning with small line ups since I left junior high in 1974.

So it is a good thing we don't have a small lineup. But again, just for the sake of interest, how many small lineups has Iowa had?

 

[nu2u]

But the Iowa team that lost to Jacksonville had two legitimate NBA players (John Johnson and Freddy Brown). Next year's team won't have any.

I don't know how you can confidently proclaim this with 8 (including Ellingson) new players in the line-up next season.

I wouldn't bet against Woodbury or Uthoff either.....and who knows for certain what's ahead for Peter Jok and Dominic Uhl.

 

[1BigGalloot]

Unless anyone has seen all 8 of the newcomers play in person (I'm including Ellingson and Baer), all this prognosticating of minutes played in 2015/16 is a waste of time. Opinions will be a little more informed and carry a little more weight after the PrimeTime season this summer, but even then, the Iowa coaching staff isn't going to have a realistic picture of what it has until about the start of the Big Ten season. Practices will be fierce, but even then, practice is one thing, and performing when the bullets are flying is another. Newcomers who make the fewest mistakes will be the most valued. Athleticism is one thing. Knowing where to be and when, court awareness, avoiding turnovers, and skilled passing, will be as important as knocking down shots and rebounding and defense. Going from high school to Big Ten level basketball is a huge leap. Yes, Fleming played with and against ten D1 players every day and game at Oak Hill, and Chicago area public school hoops is some of the best around, and Wagner has probably the most impressive body, but let's just wait and see.
Jones is the oldest and the tallest of the newcomers and just has 2 years of eligibility, so, has the inside track, but don't forget, he missed a whole season just a year ago with a knee injury.
The best thing is, none of them has to be a star this season. There are about 70 game minutes to be divided between 6 to 8 guys who are going to need to combine for 30 points and 15 rebounds. Each night the details will change based on match ups and other things, but a "bullpen by committee" approach (to borrow a baseball term), will be the coaching staff's philosophy. As long as the group collectively gets that done, the team will win a lot of games, and no certain person will have the pressure to hit a certain number each and every night.
Each will be expected to excel in 2 of 3 categories - defense, rebounding, and shooting. Those that can do that and limit mistakes will get the most court time.
Finally, 25 minutes a game should be the maximum expectation from Adam Woodbury. Increasing the effectiveness of his court time is the priority. His frame is cardiovascularly challenged. That's a big body he's lugging around. Several fouls and turnovers a game are exhaustion induced. They will not decrease with increased playing time.
Two sure fire predictions. Iowa will play more zone (look for a new one you haven't seen before) to keep the senior center rested and out of foul trouble, and I bet you'll see less of Woodbury trapping the guard on the switch out high on the man to man. The hedge has been good for at least one foul a game. Fouls 35 feet from the basket from your center are always hard to look at, but will be less affordable this year without a true back up center.

 

[seer_hawk]

So it is a good thing we don't have a small lineup. But again, just for the sake of interest, how many small lineups has Iowa had?

+1 even though I think I'm with TheSleepingDog. Over the years I can't think of too many times we've gone really small in the post, and when we did there were usually extenuating circumstances (i.e. an injury, or a taller player that wasn't the best option). Off the top of my head I recall the ones already noted. IIRC Kent Hill, who was listed at 6'6" and later described as closer to 6'4", played a lot of post his Sr, or Jr season. James Winter did as well (6'5" F), and of course Cole who just finished up his career under Fran.

IMO we are one key injury away from playing small by necessity. Unless Jones, or Wagner really beefs up, we may be matching a 225 pounder with a 250+ pounder from another B1G school. Uthoff, Uhl, and Jones have the height of some of the other post players, but not the size, or strength. Basabe did play some post as a 220 pounder, as did McCabe who actually added weight to play at around 235 (IIRC). They didn't play Center on an NCAA qualifying team though, and neither did Cole.

 

[ynglbc]

I think the Hawks could do something similar in style to what the warriors do with a lengthy, but shorter lineup:

PG: Gesell
SG: Jok
SF: Hutton (not quite sure on range)
PF: Uthoff
C: Jones

Don't know about Gesell, but someone needs to play thay doesn't turn the ball over like crazy. Also, I don't know about Hutton shooting the ball with consistent accuracy, but from whay I've heard here, he has some range and he's a great defensive stopper. A third unknown about this lineup is Jone's defense. Still, this lineup intrigues me.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

I think Hutton's range is mostly 10-15 feet, which is fine because we need someone to make mid range jumpers. I don't have Hutton as the starter.

PG: Gesell
SG: Jok
SF: Uhl
PF: Jones
C: Woody

 

[CanadaHawk]

I think Hutton's range is mostly 10-15 feet, which is fine because we need someone to make mid range jumpers. I don't have Hutton as the starter.

PG: Gesell
SG: Jok
SF: Uhl
PF: Jones
C: Woody

Hmmm... I think you forgot Uthoff. He will start before Jones. BTW, while I do think Jones will have the most immediate impact of the newcomers, that doesn't mean he'll start. With Woody, JU, Jok and MG, I think it's most likely Sapp or Uhl starts. IF neither of them shows enough and one of the newcomers really comes on, then we'll see a change.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

+1 even though I think I'm with TheSleepingDog. Over the years I can't think of too many times we've gone really small in the post, and when we did there were usually extenuating circumstances (i.e. an injury, or a taller player that wasn't the best option). Off the top of my head I recall the ones already noted. IIRC Kent Hill, who was listed at 6'6" and later described as closer to 6'4", played a lot of post his Sr, or Jr season. James Winter did as well (6'5" F), and of course Cole who just finished up his career under Fran.

IMO we are one key injury away from playing small by necessity. Unless Jones, or Wagner really beefs up, we may be matching a 225 pounder with a 250+ pounder from another B1G school. Uthoff, Uhl, and Jones have the height of some of the other post players, but not the size, or strength. Basabe did play some post as a 220 pounder, as did McCabe who actually added weight to play at around 235 (IIRC). They didn't play Center on an NCAA qualifying team though, and neither did Cole.

We could be better on offense playing small ball, but in the B1G you need to be able to guard the basket and finish defensive possessions with a rebound. I am a little concerned about how we will keep the other team's stronger bigs away from the rim when Woody isn't in the game. I am concerned about Uthoff and Uhl spending a lot of their energy protecting the basket.

 

[DanL53]

Concerning defense and rebounding when Woodbury sits, I believe we need to look back at the 2012/13 season (Woody as a frosh, Olaseni as a soph). I've posted some of this before, but we'll take a deeper look this time:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/2013.html

That opens on the 2012/13 season. Look at minutes played, and who was getting the rebounds. Check out heights. This link allows one to change seasons to compare with 2014/15. It becomes pretty clear we had us a pretty good rebounding team three seasons ago. And a quick look at KenPom will confirm it was also the best defensive team we've had under McCaffery's watch.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Concerning defense and rebounding when Woodbury sits, I believe we need to look back at the 2012/13 season (Woody as a frosh, Olaseni as a soph). I've posted some of this before, but we'll take a deeper look this time:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/2013.html

That opens on the 2012/13 season. Look at minutes played, and who was getting the rebounds. Check out heights. This link allows one to change seasons to compare with 2014/15. It becomes pretty clear we had us a pretty good rebounding team three seasons ago. And a quick look at KenPom will confirm it was also the best defensive team we've had under McCaffery's watch.

Height is not the problem, although it would be nice to have another guy over 6'8" or so. Uthoff and Uhl weigh a little more than me, and I am only 5'11". I especially don't want Uthoff using energy and picking up fouls trying to keep the other team's beasts off the boards.

 

[DanL53]

Point taken Houston. Although I don't believe Basabe and McCabe were exactly beasts themselves. We'll see how the upcoming season goes but if I had to guess I'd say we'll see more three point attempts, longer rebounds, and more athletic guys crashing the boards.