The coin toss?

[IRONBIRD]

Back in the day, end of first period wrestling in a tournament. The Ref flipped the coin, and I guess you could say one wrestler lost the flip? In any case, say it came up Green, that wrestlers choose TOP or Bottom.

Nowadays, the flip takes place, but again say it is green, that wrestler gets to choose TOP, BOTOM, NEUTRAL, or he can DEFER. That technically gives him the possibility to have TWO choices. In other words, based on luck of a coin toss, you are giving one wrestler a little advantage in my opinion.

In this case, the green wrestler get to say, I will give my opponent the choice, then I will have the advantage of making another choice in the third.

My suggestion is, the coin toss should go back to the old way and eliminate the DEFER option. I guess you could argue that then the wrestler who "loses" the toss has a slight disadvantage? It is however much more fair the way I see it.

I understand I am splitting hairs here, but I never understood why, when, how, we went from "losing the flip to winning the flip" and adding the DEFER???

and you all say????

 

[SJP80]

Splitting hairs, not worthy of a post. Where are you Penn grades?

 

[tiltman]

Plenty of other issues to fix before worrying about something like this.

 

[IRONBIRD]

Splitting hairs, not worthy of a post. Where are you Penn grades?

I did not see the match unfortunately. Was watching my son wrestle. I am hoping to go back to B1G ten+ and watch later.

Plenty of other issues to fix before worrying about something like this.

No I get it, not really an issue, was just something that I thought about back when it first started and something made me think about it again.

What "issues" should we talk about? I am so far NOT liking the THREEEE point TD. Friend of mine was sending updates on college matches as I was at HS Tourn. One thing he commented on was dave Carrs match at the Cliff Keen.

He said the other guy got the TD, Carr reversed him. No other points gives match to other guy when his feeling was that match should go to OT? Giving 3 for a TD without # for a reversal is kind of stupid I have to admit.

 

[tiltman]

The jury is still out for the 3 point td for me. I feel like until stalling issues are fixed every other issue should be put on the back burner. My number one fix would be a push out, especially now with the 3 point td. Currently if a guy is winning by a couple points going in to the last period with no stall calls he can essentially run and play the edge the entire 3rd period. Add the push out so they have to stay in the center and wrestle or risk giving up push out points and I think it would turn from the most boring scenarios in matches to the most exciting! For whatever reason the rules committee won’t even give this rule change a shot though. I believe it would eliminate the majority of stall calls on feet also. Just my opinion on where to start.

 

[dicemen99]

Back in the day, end of first period wrestling in a tournament. The Ref flipped the coin, and I guess you could say one wrestler lost the flip? In any case, say it came up Green, that wrestlers choose TOP or Bottom.

Nowadays, the flip takes place, but again say it is green, that wrestler gets to choose TOP, BOTOM, NEUTRAL, or he can DEFER. That technically gives him the possibility to have TWO choices. In other words, based on luck of a coin toss, you are giving one wrestler a little advantage in my opinion.

In this case, the green wrestler get to say, I will give my opponent the choice, then I will have the advantage of making another choice in the third.

My suggestion is, the coin toss should go back to the old way and eliminate the DEFER option. I guess you could argue that then the wrestler who "loses" the toss has a slight disadvantage? It is however much more fair the way I see it.

I understand I am splitting hairs here, but I never understood why, when, how, we went from "losing the flip to winning the flip" and adding the DEFER???

and you all say????

So your position is that you want to take away a very slight advantage that is given to the wrestler who wins the toss and give a very slight advantage to the wrestler who loses the toss? And you create a topic devoted to discussion of this?

Okay, now I understand your body of posting work slightly better.

 

[ferentzin04]

Honest question, when did they add the defer option? Granted, I’m not THAT old, but when I wrestled in the 90’s- early 2000’s, I seem to remember always having the option to defer. It doesn’t seem that new.

Seems to be 6 of one, half a dozen of the other though.

 

[texas twister]

Back in the day, end of first period wrestling in a tournament. The Ref flipped the coin, and I guess you could say one wrestler lost the flip? In any case, say it came up Green, that wrestlers choose TOP or Bottom.

Nowadays, the flip takes place, but again say it is green, that wrestler gets to choose TOP, BOTOM, NEUTRAL, or he can DEFER. That technically gives him the possibility to have TWO choices. In other words, based on luck of a coin toss, you are giving one wrestler a little advantage in my opinion.

In this case, the green wrestler get to say, I will give my opponent the choice, then I will have the advantage of making another choice in the third.

My suggestion is, the coin toss should go back to the old way and eliminate the DEFER option. I guess you could argue that then the wrestler who "loses" the toss has a slight disadvantage? It is however much more fair the way I see it.

I understand I am splitting hairs here, but I never understood why, when, how, we went from "losing the flip to winning the flip" and adding the DEFER???

and you all say????

Only one choice is made about position during a period. Find a burr under your saddle that has at least some significance.

 

[IRONBIRD]

So your position is that you want to take away a very slight advantage that is given to the wrestler who wins the toss and give a very slight advantage to the wrestler who loses the toss? And you create a topic devoted to discussion of this?

Okay, now I understand your body of posting work slightly better.

Only one choice is made about position during a period. Find a burr under your saddle that has at least some significance.

^^^ Seems to me that some should have to pass a background test AND an IQ test also to post here!!!!

You do not do anything to "win" the coin toss! It is a 50-50 luck of the draw. Maybe since they started doing it in Football wrestling also added it?

So my position is, go back to the old way where the "winner" gets the SAME choices instead of giving that person greater advantage then the other. Very important to understand that the rules committee somehow decided to give an extra choice to only one wrestler!

The old way everyone gets the SAME 3 choices only!

 

[texas twister]

^^^ Seems to me that some should have to pass a background test AND an IQ test also to post here!!!!

Good advice. Take it.

 

[artradley]

^^^ Seems to me that some should have to pass a background test AND an IQ test also to post here!!!!

You do not do anything to "win" the coin toss! It is a 50-50 luck of the draw. Maybe since they started doing it in Football wrestling also added it?

So my position is, go back to the old way where the "winner" gets the SAME choices instead of giving that person greater advantage then the other. Very important to understand that the rules committee somehow decided to give an extra choice to only one wrestler!

The old way everyone gets the SAME 3 choices only!

There is almost zero advantage to the “choice” to defer. All you do is defer your choice to the second period. And deferring is stupid, anyway. Basically, whoever “wins” the toss now almost always defers, which leaves them in the old position of “losing” the toss.

Do you think football teams who deferred the choice had some unfair advantage?

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

^^^ Seems to me that some should have to pass a background test AND an IQ test also to post here!!!!

I agree. No way you're passing that Mr. Dunning–Kruger.

 

[IRONBIRD]

There is almost zero advantage to the “choice” to defer. All you do is defer your choice to the second period. And deferring is stupid, anyway. Basically, whoever “wins” the toss now almost always defers, which leaves them in the old position of “losing” the toss.

Do you think football teams who deferred the choice had some unfair advantage?

YES a football team that wins the TOSS and defers has the advantage. Why do you think teams want to win it so badly and even the fans may get pumped up about it if they are knowledgeable.

Obviously a bigger factor in some situations then others. For example, out doors on a day where weather could be a factor. It would almost always be an advantage as a football team to defer giving your team the choice in 2nd half. this enables you to make a choice knowing how half the game has already gone!

In wrestling, I would love to hear the % of wrestlers who defer? My guess would be that DEFER would be the most by far. If I had to guess, I would say 50% of the time or greater in college, and much higher in HS, maybe 75%

That should tell you all you need to know!!!

 

[SansAgain]

I did not see the match unfortunately. Was watching my son wrestle. I am hoping to go back to B1G ten+ and watch later.

No I get it, not really an issue, was just something that I thought about back when it first started and something made me think about it again.

What "issues" should we talk about? I am so far NOT liking the THREEEE point TD. Friend of mine was sending updates on college matches as I was at HS Tourn. One thing he commented on was dave Carrs match at the Cliff Keen.

He said the other guy got the TD, Carr reversed him. No other points gives match to other guy when his feeling was that match should go to OT? Giving 3 for a TD without # for a reversal is kind of stupid I have to admit.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I’m too lazy to do a deep dive into this. I’d much rather have updates on how your son is doing

 

[artradley]

YES a football team that wins the TOSS and defers has the advantage. Why do you think teams want to win it so badly and even the fans may get pumped up about it if they are knowledgeable.

Obviously a bigger factor in some situations then others. For example, out doors on a day where weather could be a factor. It would almost always be an advantage as a football team to defer giving your team the choice in 2nd half. this enables you to make a choice knowing how half the game has already gone!

In wrestling, I would love to hear the % of wrestlers who defer? My guess would be that DEFER would be the most by far. If I had to guess, I would say 50% of the time or greater in college, and much higher in HS, maybe 75%

That should tell you all you need to know!!!

Yes, they all defer. But that tells me wrestling coaches follow here instinct.

If there is a clear advantage (such as the football game you describe) then in the old days the team that lost the toss would be at an advantage. And fans get pumped up because they are all hyped for the event, not because there is an advantage- let alone an unfair advantage, which is your point here.

There is no more advantage to winning the toss with no deferrals option than winning tne toss with a deferral option. You either choose first, if you think that is optimal, or you allow your opponent to choose first.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Back when I wrestled, only one person got a choice. You started each period in a different position. If you got choice and took bottom, you started on top in the third. No neutral, no starting on top (or bottom) twice, just once in each position. I would have loved to have all the choices they have now.
If a match comes down to the coin toss, then you didn't wrestle well.
There should be an advantage to winning the toss, or it wouldn't be a win. In a dual meet each team gets an equal number of "extra" choices, so it's as fair as possible, unless some matches end in the first period. So maybe you shouldn't get the pin or tech if it's your turn to get first choice.
How is it fair if one guy pins or techs the other guy and he never gets his choice?
I have to side with the majority here and say this one isn't worth falling on your sword for.

 

[Sharky1203]

Back in the day, end of first period wrestling in a tournament. The Ref flipped the coin, and I guess you could say one wrestler lost the flip? In any case, say it came up Green, that wrestlers choose TOP or Bottom.

Nowadays, the flip takes place, but again say it is green, that wrestler gets to choose TOP, BOTOM, NEUTRAL, or he can DEFER. That technically gives him the possibility to have TWO choices. In other words, based on luck of a coin toss, you are giving one wrestler a little advantage in my opinion.

In this case, the green wrestler get to say, I will give my opponent the choice, then I will have the advantage of making another choice in the third.

My suggestion is, the coin toss should go back to the old way and eliminate the DEFER option. I guess you could argue that then the wrestler who "loses" the toss has a slight disadvantage? It is however much more fair the way I see it.

I understand I am splitting hairs here, but I never understood why, when, how, we went from "losing the flip to winning the flip" and adding the DEFER???

and you all say????

I don't mind the defer option. I don't like the neutral option.

Stalling is my biggest issue right now.

 

[IRONBIRD]

I appreciate your thoughts, but I’m too lazy to do a deep dive into this. I’d much rather have updates on how your son is doing

My son wrestled his first tournament of the season this past weekend. Was a fairly good tournament with 16 teams. He had 28 wrestlers in his bracket and took 4th. Should have been in the finals though! he wrestles hot and cold, and needs to get mentally tougher. The two matches he lost he should have absolutely won.

That is the most concerning part and maybe the hardest part for a coach to figure out how to fix? If you lose to a better wrestler, tip you hat, shake hands, and learn so you can get better. When you don't compete to your ability, it is much harder to swallow!!!

He is not 100% committed which he needs to be to reach a high level in this sport as everyone knows. Don't get me wrong, he works hard, but he can still go much harder!!! A lot of wrestling to do so we will keep working and moving forward! Thanks for asking

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

That is the most concerning part and maybe the hardest part for a coach to figure out how to fix? If you lose to a better wrestler, tip you hat, shake hands, and learn so you can get better.

Your son? I assumed you were about 70.

I agree with your quote above. Very important life lesson and it's good to hear you believe in that ethos and are teaching it to your son.

You seem to have compartmentalized those traits to only being important in certain aspects of life or for certain people.

 

[IRONBIRD]

Your son? I assumed you were about 70.

I agree with your quote above. Very important life lesson and it's good to hear you believe in that ethos and are teaching it to your son.

You seem to have compartmentalized those traits to only being important in certain aspects of life or for certain people.

70!?!?!? nah not that old. Yes I try very hard to teach him as best as I can so TY. However I do not agree with that final sentence? I believe that I am on the righteous side and history will soon prove me correct!!!

 

[sabula]

70!?!?!? nah not that old. Yes I try very hard to teach him as best as I can so TY. However I do not agree with that final sentence? I believe that I am on the righteous side and history will soon prove me correct!!!

Ironbird, in your world, 'soon' has been going on for like what... three years now? You really need to stop holding your breathe for this. And BTW, good luck to your wrestler. Hope he has a good year.

 

[IRONBIRD]

Honestly, you are correct. There was great insight to the corruption and how deep it ran, but no one could have guessed the people being brought off.

Thank you, hopefully a switch will click in his head and he will go on a rampage!

 

[TailgateTom]

Failing to see two choice advantage

 

[woodsiding]

I'd like to see the ref hold a number behind his back and the wrestler who guesses closer wins. Or, make the coin much smaller, then the ref can hold the coin in one hand and the wrestler who picks the hand with the coin it wins. Either way the wrestler who wins will defer to the third.

 

[Trapper85]

No opinion on whether the current or past choices were better for wrestling, but the defer option does seem to be to offer clear (potential) benefits. It is wiser to make your decision later in a match when more is known....current needs (score), what has worked or not, your and your opponent's remaing gas tank, etc. Doesn't mean it will always pay off but defer seems to offer advantages and will be a wiser choice on average.

BTW, even though @IRONBIRD drives me nuts plenty, I think some of ya were a little harsh on him for asking the question. Interesting wrestling-related debate imo. His posts are not always a complete Krailure.

 

[IRONBIRD]

No opinion on whether the current or past choices were better for wrestling, but the defer option does seem to be to offer clear (potential) benefits. It is wiser to make your decision later in a match when more is known....current needs (score), what has worked or not, your and your opponent's remaing gas tank, etc. Doesn't mean it will always pay off but defer seems to offer advantages and will be a wiser choice on average.

BTW, even though @IRONBIRD drives me nuts plenty, I think some of ya were a little harsh on him for asking the question. Interesting wrestling-related debate imo. He's not a complete Krailure.

TY I think??? I am glad that someone gets it!!! AGAIN, based on RADOM LUCK, one kid gets an advantage that most do not seem to understand? Maybe they have never coached? Maybe they have to watch a really intense match?

You know who may help them in a situation like this? A great TOP guy. Say you are coaching Triple V3. This is a kid that is a HAMMER on top and as of right now, his feet offense has not been great. So think about the coin toss in his matches!

If he wins it, he can defer, now his opponent has a choice to make in the 2nd. Just say the match is 0-0. Does he go down to try and earn his 1 point. or does he pick neutral? Mean while, Triple V has no3 got a clear advantage as depending on the choice the other wrestler makes, and the out come of the 2nd?

He gets to make ANOTHER decision at start of the 3rd? Kid choose neutral, still no TD, V can choose down. Kid choose neutral got a TD, V can choose neutral, or top. Kid choose down, V rides him or turns him, V can choose top etc......

Now look at it where his opponent wins the toss, and I believe this has already happen at least once if not more times this year. In the same 0-0 end of 1st scenario, he can defer. This forces V to make a tough choice. Go down to try and earn his 1, take his best position top and try and ride turn, take neutral where he has not been lighting it up?

Now there was at least one low scoring match that I can remember that he never was able to get on top. YES, you can say "well he has to score more from feet, get better etc..... but in really tight matches that we all have seen and are bound to happen. These scenarios take place many times!!!

IF you were V's coach, or V himself. When that coin is flipping in the air. How much are you hoping you "win" it and get that choice!?!?!? WHO, here can tell me it is NOT a factor in a match like I have outlined !??!!?!?

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

V3 should get better at neutral rather than hoping to win a coin flip or hoping for a rules change regarding the coin flip.