Working Class Kids....

[johnstownsteel]

I respect many here and wanted to get some thoughts a/o opinions on the state of wrestling in relation to financial means and family finances. This June, I will be 25 years removed from participating in highschool wrestling. Admittedly my memory may be slipping a bit but for the life of me I cant recall the importance of finances or the role a family's finacial situation played in a childs development in the sport.

I was a working class kid in a steel making family. My parents main concern was paying on the family home,keeping the lights on and most importantly making sure we were fed. We didnt have whole lot of disposable income. When we did actually venture out into the world, we went on "real" vacations and not those that doubled as an opportunity to seek out better competition. When we did travel to tournaments, they were never more than a couple hours away, you certainly didn't need funds for hotel stays and if you really wanted to conserve you packed a cooler.

I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, is it nearly impossible these days for the "poor kid" to make it to the next level in the sport of wrestling? And if so, how has that affected the sports participation rates and popularity? To me, these days it seems that most kids that actually become great, spent their formadable years owrestling in tournaments all over the country. For some, all over the world. Am I wrong on this or are there plenty of kids wrestling for college programs without ever stepping onto a mat outside of their own region?

To be honest, maybe my perception on how things were back then is flawed. Maybe they held all these national tournaments back then but were never told about them because coaches and parents knew we couldnt afford to attend anyway. For me, my biggest motivation was to wrestle in the Pennsylvania state tournament every year. In my area that would make me sort of a mini celebrity but now I wonder, were those kids I was wrestling getting competition from other parts of the country? I dont know...

This post was edited on 4/3 6:55 AM by johnstownsteel

 

[sweatybetty]

I can appreciate and relate to this post.

 

[TarpHawk]

I happen to believe that wrestling continues to be one of the most egalitarian of all sports. You don't need to own season ski passes, or a $20K dressage horse, or a $50K sailboat, a $250K NASCAR vehicle. You can be rich. You can be poor. You can be big. You can be little. You can be stocky. You can be lanky. Anyone can succeed.

I do see the point you're making, johnstownnsteel, which is that money confers an advantage--that's true in everything. But I think it's less true in wrestling than in many other sports, and I don't begrudge those who happen to have the money to take their kid to Fargo or summer wrestling camps. Hard work is the great equalizer, and you can't buy your way to the top of the podium.

 

[Bryowan]

When I read this, my first thought was 'what about Zeke Moisey, kid seemed to come out of nowhere.' Looking at his bio at wvusports.com it seems he did get around some in HS. Credentials from Dapper Dan, Beast of the East, Weaver Elite... I am about the same age as you and I can say that before the internet, when I was a kid, there is no way I would have even known about these tournaments / teams. A lot has changed since then but for me, it was a big deal to go to the Bettendorf, IA or St. Charles, MO tournaments. I think it was a big deal for my parents financially too, and I am not sure I ever thanked them properly. Think I will give them a call today!

 

[YoungGun07]

I think you can be elite without a lot of money, IF you're in the right area. If you have a great coach and training partners as part of your high school/school club team etc, you can be really successful. The really rural kids, without many other kids around them, probably need to travel more to get the competition and coaching that it takes to be great.

 

[LutherAce]

biggest tournaments in my day were Keith Young (ofter called preseason state), Bob Leuders Invite (Clinton, IA), and what is now the Ed Winger Classic in Urbandale.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Originally posted by YoungGun07:
I think you can be elite without a lot of money, IF you're in the right area. If you have a great coach and training partners as part of your high school/school club team etc, you can be really successful. The really rural kids, without many other kids around them, probably need to travel more to get the competition and coaching that it takes to be great.

I see it similarly...I think the best HS wrestlers today are far more refined and practiced and often better coached than 15 or more years ago. A family with disposable income certainly helps a great deal, but in the right situation, a kid without as much means can also get some pretty good practice partners and repetitions in a local summer club for a modest amount of money.

 

[Jaybird319]

I think you could crossover this questions to all sports these days. This ideal that a child has to be 1 or 2 sport "athlete" in elementary school is a joke. Once society tuned into this ideology sport finances and "clubs" went through the roof.

Without a question it takes vastly more money for today wrestlers. The sheer amount of time for wrestling "Folk season" has expanded by 1-2 months in Iowa within last 10-15 yrs. I wrestled youth in the 80-90s, there were no tournaments on Sunday's and can remember only 2-3 Fri night tournaments. From Dec thru March you can have your kids wrestling 2-3 tournaments per week, way more then HS and college wrestlers. It's crazy that youth wrestlers are banging out 60+ matches in Folkstyle.

Travel expenses such hotel, gas, food etc, etc far out weigh any entry fees. I know families that stay at hotels 1-2 nights every few weeks just to wrestle different competition. Another example is a few families that wrestle at the Dells in WS the next day wrestled at Corn Cob in IA that's a 7+ hr drive.

Then let's add in the club expenses, around IA anywhere from $50-100 per month w set travel obligations. Granted those obligations are parental choices for the most part, usually dependent on dual team. But when your kids make the dual team, well..... Add these fees on top of paying for particapting in your local youth school programs. Luckily these are a small 1 time payment per season, usually $50-75.

90% of my youth tournaments travel was provided by school on a school bus, all within 90 min drive. In many cities and towns schools have stopped the bus usage for youth sports. We wrestled only 1 tournament per week and always on Sat. We started our season in Dec, wrestled our tournaments in Jan and Feb, held a potluck end of Feb. Now a days Folk starts Oct/Nov with tournaments starting in Nov. Tournaments proceed from Nov thru March

Of course this doesn't get into Freco season March/April thru June/July. Where travel expense increase even more due to less tournaments. Wrestling web sites have added to this need of wrestling more and more. When you can see who is who these days it create a false sense of urgency. "My kid is losing ground" syndrome. So yes for 99.9% of young athletes in any sports the "poor" and "average" kids are losing ground.

 

[Cal98]

Originally posted by johnstownsteel:
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, is it nearly impossible these days for the "poor kid" to make it to the next level in the sport of wrestling? And if so, how has that affected the sports participation rates and popularity? To me, these days it seems that most kids that actually become great, spent their formadable years owrestling in tournaments all over the country. For some, all over the world. Am I wrong on this or are there plenty of kids wrestling for college programs without ever stepping onto a mat outside of their own region?

It really depends also on what we consider "next level". There are tons of wrestling opportunities in D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA, and NCWA. Many of those kids didn't wrestle year round, commit a lot of dollars to it, or wrestle much out of their back yard.

In my opinion, a lot of overzealous parents could do themselves a favor and funnel those traveling and elite training costs into college funds or tutors instead. I don't fault parents who truly support a kid who absolutely loves wrestling and wants to wrestle in college, beyond or even coach though. If that's what gives their family joy regardless of whether their career ends at high school, then so be it.

 

[wasdt21]

if the kid is lucky enough to have a quality youth,middle school, or high school coach or mentor along the way would be a great asset. money is a big advantage in everything, but if you have "it" and are lucky enough to have someone to help with using it,that is more valuable than money. when reading this I thought of the davis kid at notre dame I believe he comes from a hard background.i have always thought the youth coaches are the most important link in our sport.

 

[Jaybird319]

I can agree 100% with this. However, lots of things/people have to be in right place for a 5-10 year stretch. Willing parents to donate their time to transportation and practices usually becomes a deterrent to most after awhile. Especially if they are lower demographics and travel beyond a few miles

Team sports will generally cost less to excel and to particapate in. Football imo is the most friendly sport to a parents wallets. It's the cheapest sport for my son be a long ways. Wrestling is the most expensive and time consuming by far currently. Maybe this changes in the future but I have my doubts.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Great feedback. Appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your thoughts and ideas on the subjects.

 

[Jaybird319]

My favorite thing about this wrestling board are when people share experiences, even for a PSU fan

 

[final drive]

Its not just wrestling,its become apparent in all sports that the parents with time and money to travel and go to all these events are giving their kids an advantage over others not as fortunate.When you stop and think about what is happening with youth sports it blatantly obvious that this is "all about the money".

 

[IamHawkeye]

Was just talking to a set of grandparents whose 10 yr. grandchild is very good in his age group for a sport, which I won't name, but it sounds like he is starting to lose some of his zeal. Enjoys being around the other kids,but the actual competition is starting to mean less to him. Sounds like the father is becoming more zealous as the kid is getting less that way. For instance, the kid qualified for a weekend "science" camp which meant missing a meet, father not happy.

 

[Huck]

Agree with about everything has been said. I graduated in '91 and I believe that was when kids really started looking at "specializing" in one sport (at least in my area). Purler was about the first wrestling club that I can remember in the area and I think that was about 10 years later. As some said, I think the big gap comes when you don't have excellent coaches with your local kids club, middle school, and high school. Wrestling partners have a large part in development as well in my opinion. I'd send my son to a wrestling club just to get a higher level of wrestling partners.

I wish sports weren't where they are today. I miss the days where you went from one sport to the other depending on the season. Kids are all different and there are some that are special and can handle or enjoy being one sport athletes from a young age but I think we lose a lot from it as well, kids just aren't as excited if they've competed almost year round.
A personal example is getting to strap on a real football helmet for my 7th grade summer camp, I was so pumped. Now kids are playing when they are 5 and 6 years old. I issue them equipment in middle school and it's no big deal to them, a lot of the excitement is gone because they've been doing it for several years already.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Originally posted by Huck:
Agree with about everything has been said. I graduated in '91 and I believe that was when kids really started looking at "specializing" in one sport (at least in my area). Purler was about the first wrestling club that I can remember in the area and I think that was about 10 years later. As some said, I think the big gap comes when you don't have excellent coaches with your local kids club, middle school, and high school. Wrestling partners have a large part in development as well in my opinion. I'd send my son to a wrestling club just to get a higher level of wrestling partners.

I wish sports weren't where they are today. I miss the days where you went from one sport to the other depending on the season. Kids are all different and there are some that are special and can handle or enjoy being one sport athletes from a young age but I think we lose a lot from it as well, kids just aren't as excited if they've competed almost year round.
A personal example is getting to strap on a real football helmet for my 7th grade summer camp, I was so pumped. Now kids are playing when they are 5 and 6 years old. I issue them equipment in middle school and it's no big deal to them, a lot of the excitement is gone because they've been doing it for several years already.

Amen to your second paragraph.Kids used to go from one sport to the other. The ones who didn't usually were in a sport, like tennis or swimming or cross-country where skills (or maybe body type) didn't translate so well to other sports, but even then there were some who were multi-sports athletes. Didn't Iowa have a FB lineman who was a swimmer in HS?

 

[Spoons]

Its tough on us working class parents....

My daughter plays on a regional softball team and believe me money is a very BIG part of it. Denmarini came out with a new bat that is PERFECT for my daughter. Its designed for slappers and that's what she does. Scheels bat guru told us that they will not carry it due to it being a specialty bat but they could order one. He also said with the technology going into this particular bat this that we NEED to get one. It will improve her batting %. I told him she was a .580 hitter last year and his response with this bat she will even do better. Since there are 2 Division 1 schools all ready looking at a 13 year old kid(crazy right) we placed the order for the bat to the tune of 349.00. Add to the fact that we won our state tournament last year which qaulified us for nationals in Indiana. That was a 1,000 dollar tournament but it was not a option WE WERE GOING. Add to that 4 weekends in Des Moines. Tournaments where we traved about 1 hour everyother weekend. I guess all I'm saying is I had to give up my golf membership at our local country club and going/working on dirt race cars at our local track also. Fortunately for me I am 99.9999% sure she will NOT get burned out its just the way she is wired. She does every sport our local school offers is in student council, did the local play (Annie). Some of this stuff will go away as she gets older due to having to specialize a bit more on her softball but she is trying it all now.

Then add my son(9 years old) who is starting to get involved more in sports. He is on our hometown baseball team which does some traveling but just 2 or 3 tournaments. He also wrestles and wants to play tackle football this year.

There will be 2 weekends this year when my wife and I are in different place due to both our kids playing in different towns.
Double the gas and expenses in general.

I guess all I'm saying its all about sacrificing what we can for our kids to chase thier dreams!!!

 

[johnstownsteel]

Great feedback... Awesome! You guys have a helluva board. Appreciate every one of you sharing your thoughts and experiences. I thank you..

 

[caseyballzz]

Originally posted by johnstownsteel:
Great feedback... Awesome! You guys have a helluva board. Appreciate every one of you sharing your thoughts and experiences. I thank you..

Hey I can't speak for financing a wrestler but my son is a baseball player and I work overtime to help fund his baseball. He is also a state away in Missouri and he gets zilch as support from her side of the family. It is also taxing my home life with the rest of the family. I buy his equipment, fee for travel, and even the small things that come up such as warm sleeves for only 10 bucks. For this year I have spent well over a thousand dollars on equipment etc. THE SEASON HAS NOT EVEN STATRTED. I am committed to give the boy what he needs to succeed. This is what we do as parents. I salute any parent who has a child that plays sports this day and age. It is a financial burden. The most important thing I can give my boy is my presence at any event I can get to. He would rather have me at his game than not have me there even if he uses a ten dollar glove. I know wrestling is expensive for travel, wrestling gear, coaching, and everything else.

 

[3boysmom]

Originally posted by caseyballzz:

Originally posted by johnstownsteel:
Great feedback... Awesome! You guys have a helluva board. Appreciate every one of you sharing your thoughts and experiences. I thank you..

Hey I can't speak for financing a wrestler but my son is a baseball player and I work overtime to help fund his baseball. He is also a state away in Missouri and he gets zilch as support from her side of the family. It is also taxing my home life with the rest of the family. I buy his equipment, fee for travel, and even the small things that come up such as warm sleeves for only 10 bucks. For this year I have spent well over a thousand dollars on equipment etc. THE SEASON HAS NOT EVEN STATRTED. I am committed to give the boy what he needs to succeed. This is what we do as parents. I salute any parent who has a child that plays sports this day and age. It is a financial burden. The most important thing I can give my boy is my presence at any event I can get to. He would rather have me at his game than not have me there even if he uses a ten dollar glove. I know wrestling is expensive for travel, wrestling gear, coaching, and everything else.

If we calculated the amount of money we spent on sports for our kids I'm pretty sure I would vomit. It is a lot of money. Baseball has been the most expensive for us by far but that is mostly because our son that wrestles has never really done it off season. So costs have been more limited. I can say that the clubs in North Omaha have done well with little funds but there are certainly a whole other host of issues that prevent many of those kids from excelling beyond high school. Money certainly helps with access to coaching and competition. Belonging to a family that is stable, secure, and supportive is a far bigger advantage.

 

[redghost1974]

Long live the multi-sport athlete, for their health.

Repetive sports injuries on the rise

 

[Book Em]

My kid is one of those you're talking about. Started in first grade and we're out in the rural area. Worked his way up through the local stuff until he needed more. Just finished our fifth year of all this and I purposely do NOT add up all the money at the end of the season, but when I see the kids/parents that couldn't or wouldn't make the commitment we have it is easy to see he wouldn't be at the level he is if we hadn't done what we did. This year they've gone to Virginia, Illinois and Indiana along with AAU National Duals this past weekend in Des Moines. USA Preseason Nationals was around Thanksgiving last fall.

He still does some other sports at school but not every one. He decided he didn't want to play football this fall, which is not going to go over well at school, but it's his choice. He started club practice in late August and will do freestyle through May. He usually takes a week or two break right now, another at the end of May and then a little longer one in August and every time he starts the "when does practice start again".

 

[bnicolls]

Born in '58, I grew up in the sixties, early 70's.....and still for that matter.

There was almost no specialization then, sport seasons came and went. School (softball, basketball, track, wrestling), summer Little League/Babe Ruth, fall Pop Warner Football, swimming mostly dominated. However, that was it for "adult supervised" sports. In all seasons, we orgainized ourselves in pick up games of all sorts far more than we ever played for adults. Today, I never see just a group of kids at the park playing any kind of game. I guess there are many reasons for that, but one is the mass proliferation of adult supervised sports most particularly those specialized.

Wrestling is one of those sports that does not take alot of dollars. Distance running, which I coached is another. Coaching is important though to teach correct techniques and have a solid training program. I like these sports where hard work equals improved results, and builds character. It's a good life lesson.

I don't know how to get away from the trend we're in. Specialization and dollars is like an Arms race to what end? The kids are still fighting over the same amount of schollies or miniscule professional openings.

 

[artradley]

I've brought this up in the past and I definitely agree that the demographics for successful wrestlers is changing to those whose parents can spend tens of thousands of dollars over the years in clubs, private lessons, travel, etc. Here in the Northeast a lot of them aren't even looking for a scholarship, they're looking for that extra line on their high school resume that will get them into an Ivy.

I wouldn't doubt if in the coming years we'll see the elite private colleges start to dominate in wrestling the way the elite private high schools are dominating.

One of the saddest parts of this (and demonstrated in this thread) is the huge amount of money spent by parents who can't really afford it trying to help their kids stay competitive. As others have mentioned, that money would be better spent on tutors, or just sent into a 529.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Originally posted by bnicolls:

Born in '58, I grew up in the sixties, early 70's.....and still for that matter.

There was almost no specialization then, sport seasons came and went. School (softball, basketball, track, wrestling), summer Little League/Babe Ruth, fall Pop Warner Football, swimming mostly dominated. However, that was it for "adult supervised" sports. In all seasons, we orgainized ourselves in pick up games of all sorts far more than we ever played for adults. Today, I never see just a group of kids at the park playing any kind of game. I guess there are many reasons for that, but one is the mass proliferation of adult supervised sports most particularly those specialized.

Wrestling is one of those sports that does not take alot of dollars. Distance running, which I coached is another. Coaching is important though to teach correct techniques and have a solid training program. I like these sports where hard work equals improved results, and builds character. It's a good life lesson.

I don't know how to get away from the trend we're in. Specialization and dollars is like an Arms race to what end? The kids are still fighting over the same amount of schollies or miniscule professional openings.
I am just a few years behind you bnicolls, I was born in '62, and your experience matches mine 100%. As kids, we were always outside playing one sport or another...but almost always as a bunch of disorganized neighborhood kids. While I have very fond memories of those times, looking back, I do wish that I could have received some actual coaching in those formative years, as I think I would have had quite a bit more success in formal, school based teams later.

I also don't have a good answer as to how to reverse the trend of youth sports specialization, shoot, forget about college scholarships...a kid just about has to play one sport year around nowadays to make the varsity in their local HS. (This assumes a larger HS BTW.)

 

[Jaybird319]

The last paragraph is exactly the thought process that has lead to the increase in specialize youth sports. It doesn't just happen at larger districts, but smaller schools were "team" sports are poor has contributed to this thinking also. I dont necessarily think it's a bad choice when kids are 8th or 9th grader. I'm pretty sure 99.99% of youth parents understand that their kid has lotto chance of D1 scholly these days. Last I look the best chance to score a D1 scholly is in equestrian. Food for thought

 

[Shafthawk]

Originally posted by IamHawkeye:

Originally posted by Huck:
Agree with about everything has been said. I graduated in '91 and I believe that was when kids really started looking at "specializing" in one sport (at least in my area). Purler was about the first wrestling club that I can remember in the area and I think that was about 10 years later. As some said, I think the big gap comes when you don't have excellent coaches with your local kids club, middle school, and high school. Wrestling partners have a large part in development as well in my opinion. I'd send my son to a wrestling club just to get a higher level of wrestling partners.

I wish sports weren't where they are today. I miss the days where you went from one sport to the other depending on the season. Kids are all different and there are some that are special and can handle or enjoy being one sport athletes from a young age but I think we lose a lot from it as well, kids just aren't as excited if they've competed almost year round.
A personal example is getting to strap on a real football helmet for my 7th grade summer camp, I was so pumped. Now kids are playing when they are 5 and 6 years old. I issue them equipment in middle school and it's no big deal to them, a lot of the excitement is gone because they've been doing it for several years already.

Amen to your second paragraph.Kids used to go from one sport to the other. The ones who didn't usually were in a sport, like tennis or swimming or cross-country where skills (or maybe body type) didn't translate so well to other sports, but even then there were some who were multi-sports athletes. Didn't Iowa have a FB lineman who was a swimmer in HS?

Yes, Tyler Luebke was an Iowa kid that started on the D-line, and was in fact a high school swimmer.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Originally posted by Shafthawk:

Originally posted by IamHawkeye:

Originally posted by Huck:
Agree with about everything has been said. I graduated in '91 and I believe that was when kids really started looking at "specializing" in one sport (at least in my area). Purler was about the first wrestling club that I can remember in the area and I think that was about 10 years later. As some said, I think the big gap comes when you don't have excellent coaches with your local kids club, middle school, and high school. Wrestling partners have a large part in development as well in my opinion. I'd send my son to a wrestling club just to get a higher level of wrestling partners.

I wish sports weren't where they are today. I miss the days where you went from one sport to the other depending on the season. Kids are all different and there are some that are special and can handle or enjoy being one sport athletes from a young age but I think we lose a lot from it as well, kids just aren't as excited if they've competed almost year round.
A personal example is getting to strap on a real football helmet for my 7th grade summer camp, I was so pumped. Now kids are playing when they are 5 and 6 years old. I issue them equipment in middle school and it's no big deal to them, a lot of the excitement is gone because they've been doing it for several years already.

Amen to your second paragraph.Kids used to go from one sport to the other. The ones who didn't usually were in a sport, like tennis or swimming or cross-country where skills (or maybe body type) didn't translate so well to other sports, but even then there were some who were multi-sports athletes. Didn't Iowa have a FB lineman who was a swimmer in HS?

Yes, Tyler Luebke was an Iowa kid that started on the D-line, and was in fact a high school swimmer.

Unless I am confusing my Luebke's...while Tyler was a swimmer, he was also a standout DL for the ICW football team, prior to going to Iowa. I attended the ICW v. Cedar Falls HS football championship game in the late 90's where Luebke seemingly made every tackle in the 2nd half and most of them were against the CF standout RB who was the other star player in that game.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Originally posted by Old_wrestling_fan:

Originally posted by Shafthawk:

Originally posted by IamHawkeye:

Originally posted by Huck:
Agree with about everything has been said. I graduated in '91 and I believe that was when kids really started looking at "specializing" in one sport (at least in my area). Purler was about the first wrestling club that I can remember in the area and I think that was about 10 years later. As some said, I think the big gap comes when you don't have excellent coaches with your local kids club, middle school, and high school. Wrestling partners have a large part in development as well in my opinion. I'd send my son to a wrestling club just to get a higher level of wrestling partners.

I wish sports weren't where they are today. I miss the days where you went from one sport to the other depending on the season. Kids are all different and there are some that are special and can handle or enjoy being one sport athletes from a young age but I think we lose a lot from it as well, kids just aren't as excited if they've competed almost year round.
A personal example is getting to strap on a real football helmet for my 7th grade summer camp, I was so pumped. Now kids are playing when they are 5 and 6 years old. I issue them equipment in middle school and it's no big deal to them, a lot of the excitement is gone because they've been doing it for several years already.

Amen to your second paragraph.Kids used to go from one sport to the other. The ones who didn't usually were in a sport, like tennis or swimming or cross-country where skills (or maybe body type) didn't translate so well to other sports, but even then there were some who were multi-sports athletes. Didn't Iowa have a FB lineman who was a swimmer in HS?

Yes, Tyler Luebke was an Iowa kid that started on the D-line, and was in fact a high school swimmer.

Unless I am confusing my Luebke's...while Tyler was a swimmer, he was also a standout DL for the ICW football team, prior to going to Iowa. I attended the ICW v. Cedar Falls HS football championship game in the late 90's where Luebke seemingly made every tackle in the 2nd half and most of them were against the CF standout RB who was the other star player in that game.

Well, no one said he didn't play FB in HS, just that he combined it with swimming,which has become a year round sport.

 

[wamachie]

back to the topic: I do think an athletic kid from lesser "socio-economic" family can still succeed in wrestling. I know this because we occasionally have athletic and/or hard nosed kids that pick it up during MS years and with some decent HS coaching do just fine with very little experience.....lots of opportunities in wrestling for good athletes regardless of start dates.

I would argue that with Iowa youth, ms, and hs....we have a problem with a large number of kids in with youth wrestling success that really have very average athletic talent by the time they get to HS. Pair the avg athleticism with a little too much competition and we have a fair number of frustrated wrestling parents in our state.

I would encourage all youth and middle school coaches to look for those athletes in your schools that haven't been paid attention to by the money-club-sports and invite them to your wrestling club.

I am excited about the Moody recruit....full of potential....much different than Iowa's typical recruits that are wrestling only kids that can't swing a golf club, catch a baseball, or dribble a basketball. I think Moody is a good call by Morningstar and Brands.