“Cloth Masks aren’t very effective.”

[shank hawk]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

"Statistical analysis of the extracted data revealed no statistically significant association between mask usage and the incidence of surgical site infection. The study concluded that ‘it is unclear whether the wearing of surgical facemasks by members of the surgical team has any impact on surgical wound infection rates for patients undergoing clean surgery’

Another unavoidable aspect of this debate is that of public perception. In the public psyche, facemasks have become so strongly associated with safe and proper surgical practice that their disposal could cause unnecessary patient distress."

It’s amazing to think that common sense used to exist before 2020.

“ONA's well-regarded expert witnesses, including Toronto infection control expert Dr. Michael Gardam, Quebecepidemiologist Dr. Gaston De Serres, and Dr. Lisa Brosseau, an American expert on masks, testified that there was insufficient evidence to support the St. Michael's policy and no evidence that forcing healthy nurses to wear masks during the influenza season did anything to prevent transmission of influenza in hospitals. They further testified that nurses who have no symptoms are unlikely to be a real source of transmission and that it was not logical to force healthy unvaccinated nurses to mask. Arbitrator Kaplan accepted this expert evidence. In contrast, he noted the only fair words to describe the hospital's evidence in support of masking are "insufficient, inadequate and completely unpersuasive."

ONA Wins Second Decision on "Unreasonable and Illogical" Vaccinate or Mask Influenza Policies

/CNW/ - The Ontario Nurses' Association (ONA) has won a second decision on the controversial vaccinate or mask (VOM) policy, striking down the policy in effect...

www.newswire.ca

 

[strummingram]

It's no wonder we are still stuck in this BS of a pandemic because of people like you.

According to Osterholm, we're stuck in this pandemic because of the Covid-19 virus... period.

It seems that some people are kind of pissed because we can't really control it. And, Osterholm has made it clear that we cannot control it! The virus does what it wants and we play "adapt and deal with it" until it dies-out.

 

[at4iowa]

According to Osterholm, we're stuck in this pandemic because of the Covid-19 virus... period.

It seems that some people are kind of pissed because we can't really control it. And, Osterholm has made it clear that we cannot control it! The virus does what it wants and we play "adapt and deal with it" until it dies-out.

Not really, Osterholm has said that we are still in this pandemic because we can't get vaccines into the arms of everyone on the planet. The vaccine is incredibly effective. We will continue to be stuck in this pandemic until everyone gets the vaccine. Below is a copy of a transcript from an interview Osterholm gave in May of this year.

Topol: Speaking of big picture, I want to get your perspective. We had the sequence of the virus in January last year. And by November, we already had completed multiple large-scale studies — some of the largest trials ever done in medicine — showing validation of the vaccines' high efficacy and safety, and then, of course, rolling them out in December in multiple countries around the world. Have you ever seen anything like this in your career spanning many decades?


Osterholm: None of us have. And more importantly, none of us probably actually believed it would happen. Remember, in July and August, we were all saying, boy, if we can get a vaccine that's 50% effective among the population against the coronaviruses, because of the challenges, we're going to be really lucky. The mRNA vaccine technology, and how it was brought forward, was nothing short of a modern public health Manhattan Project success. Now what we need, however, is a second Manhattan Project with a Marshall Plan attached to it. The second Manhattan Project is, how are we going to manufacture enough vaccine for the world? Because this is no longer just about humanitarian aid. That is critical and should be front and center. But this is about protecting the integrity of our current vaccines, as you have so very thoughtfully taught us over recent weeks. It's still unclear what these variants are doing to vaccine protection. I don't think it's nearly as bad as some might think it is, but what's the next variant to come down the pike? We need to stop transmission globally — not just for humanitarian reasons, but to protect the integrity and the functionality of these current vaccines. So that's our next project on top of the one we just finished.

 

[strummingram]

Not really, Osterholm has said that we are still in this pandemic because we can't get vaccines into the arms of everyone on the planet. The vaccine is incredibly effective. We will continue to be stuck in this pandemic until everyone gets the vaccine. Below is a copy of a transcript from an interview Osterholm gave in May of this year.

Topol: Speaking of big picture, I want to get your perspective. We had the sequence of the virus in January last year. And by November, we already had completed multiple large-scale studies — some of the largest trials ever done in medicine — showing validation of the vaccines' high efficacy and safety, and then, of course, rolling them out in December in multiple countries around the world. Have you ever seen anything like this in your career spanning many decades?


Osterholm: None of us have. And more importantly, none of us probably actually believed it would happen. Remember, in July and August, we were all saying, boy, if we can get a vaccine that's 50% effective among the population against the coronaviruses, because of the challenges, we're going to be really lucky. The mRNA vaccine technology, and how it was brought forward, was nothing short of a modern public health Manhattan Project success. Now what we need, however, is a second Manhattan Project with a Marshall Plan attached to it. The second Manhattan Project is, how are we going to manufacture enough vaccine for the world? Because this is no longer just about humanitarian aid. That is critical and should be front and center. But this is about protecting the integrity of our current vaccines, as you have so very thoughtfully taught us over recent weeks. It's still unclear what these variants are doing to vaccine protection. I don't think it's nearly as bad as some might think it is, but what's the next variant to come down the pike? We need to stop transmission globally — not just for humanitarian reasons, but to protect the integrity and the functionality of these current vaccines. So that's our next project on top of the one we just finished.

Well, I apologize... I figured that was automatically understood. Yes, if we're all vaccinated and it cannot do anymore damage, or morph into something that can kill us, then we're good. The vaccines have been incredibly effective. He states as much, too.

 

[Joes Place]

Oh, the caveats.

They NEVER actually read the studies. They read the MAGAt headlines on Facebook that link to the studies.

 

[Joes Place]

As I have said multiple times, ones freedom to not vaccinate does not trump my freedom to not mask.

See how that goes over with your hospital administration, then.

 

[at4iowa]

Well, I apologize... I figured that was automatically understood. Yes, if we're all vaccinated and it cannot do anymore damage, or morph into something that can kill us, then we're good. The vaccines have been incredibly effective. He states as much, too.

Ha! skankhawk and pinehawk liked your post, so I assumed you were on their side.

 

[Pinehawk]

There is no ‘side’. There is understanding of the inability to control the virus outside of vaccination.

Everyone should get vaccinated. Nothing else will protect you from getting Covid, during the course of the rest of your life.

 

[Joes Place]

There is no ‘side’. There is understanding of the inability to control the virus outside of vaccination.

No one is arguing this Straw Man but you.

 

[Pinehawk]

No one is arguing this Straw Man but you.

Well, you are. By saying masks make a significant difference. They don’t. And, they won’t this time either.
The vaccine is the only real protection.

 

[shank hawk]

There is no ‘side’. There is understanding of the inability to control the virus outside of vaccination.

Everyone should get vaccinated. Nothing else will protect you from getting Covid, during the course of the rest of your life.

Except those of us with legitimate reasons not to.

You eliminate informed consent between doctor/patient and you’re left with fascism.

I’ll use sunlight, oxygen, exercise, supplements, nutrition, therapeutics, etc. instead of jumpering my immune circuitry. 😙

 

[LBoogie28]

I find it humorous that @shank hawk is constantly “informing” the board that masks don’t work, admittedly doesn’t wear one, and has contracted COVID.

 

[at4iowa]

Except those of us with legitimate reasons not to.

You eliminate informed consent between doctor/patient and you’re left with fascism.

I’ll use sunlight, oxygen, exercise, supplements, nutrition, therapeutics, etc. instead of jumpering my immune circuitry. 😙

Being a science denier is not a legitimate reason to not get the vaccine. In fact, the only true contraindication to getting the vaccine is if you have had an anaphylactic reaction to a previous Covid vaccine or a known previous severe reaction to any component of the vaccine. That's it. It is still recommended for people who are immunocompromised and probably aren't able to mount a big enough of an immune response to confer immunity. Doctors know how the immune system works. We know how to make vaccines. The technology isn't new. I would argue that vaccines are one of the most if not the most important advances in the history of healthcare. Rejecting this vaccine is, in my opinion, detrimental to the world at large.

I will not argue with you as I know your heels are firmly planted into the ground on this issue, but hopefully you can understand that we have scientists that have devoted their entire careers to the development and implementation of vaccines. These people know more than you do. They know more than I do. They understand things on a level that you do not. There is nearly universal consensus that the Covid vaccine is the best way to get out of this pandemic. We have the key to open the door out of this, but far too many are refusing to use the key and are preventing the world from moving forward out of this mess. As a physician who spends most of my day doing preventive medicine, it is frustrating to see how out of touch with reality some people are in terms of getting this vaccine. Believing in junk science and getting your information from nonsensical sources is truly dangerous.

I haven't heard of anyone trying to eliminate informed consent between a doctor and patient. You will always have a choice. I believe in that choice. However, it doesn't stop me from thinking that you are making an incredibly poor choice, not only for yourself, but for the rest of the world.

 

[shank hawk]

“This product is not a respirator and will not provide ANY protection against covid-19 (coronavirus) or other viruses or contaminants.”

Disclaimer on face mask. 🤨

 

[Joes Place]

Well, you are. By saying masks make a significant difference.

No one has claimed we're going to control the pandemic with masks alone.
That's your Straw Man.

 

[Joes Place]

“This product is not a respirator and will not provide ANY protection against covid-19 (coronavirus) or other viruses or contaminants.”

Disclaimer on face mask. 🤨

#ProductLiabilityLegalese

 

[Pinehawk]

No one has claimed we're going to control the pandemic with masks alone.
That's your Straw Man.

Masks won’t make any meaningful difference.
They didn’t before, and they won’t this time either.

 

[Joes Place]

Masks won’t make any meaningful difference.

They have for a lot of people who weren't infected until they could get a vaccine.
It's explicitly why they are required in hospitals, particularly children's hospitals.

 

[strummingram]

Ha! skankhawk and pinehawk liked your post, so I assumed you were on their side.

Sheezus... This infatuation with sides is exhausting.

It's amazing how much people recoil when a trusted member of the "scientific community" doesn't tow the narrative line.

The masks offer little to no protection. Their affect on mitigation has been miniscule. The 1918 pandemic proved the same to be true. Vaccines, or surviving the virus, are the only real effective measures.

 

[Joes Place]

The masks offer little to no protection. Their affect on mitigation has been miniscule. The 1918 pandemic proved the same to be true. Vaccines, or surviving the virus, are the only real effective measures.

Odd statement to make, considering someone who linked the historian who wrote about 1918 stated the opposite in an Op Ed.

 

[at4iowa]

Sheezus... This infatuation with sides is exhausting.

It's amazing how much people recoil when a trusted member of the "scientific community" doesn't tow the narrative line.

The masks offer little to no protection. Their affect on mitigation has been miniscule. The 1918 pandemic proved the same to be true. Vaccines, or surviving the virus, are the only real effective measures.

Are you referring to Osterholm? I think he is pretty much on board with using masks, but realizes the limitations of them, especially the joke cloth masks. I absolutely agree. SOME masks offer very good protection. Most do not. I think we are pretty much on the same page. However, I do believe that the correct masks used in the correct way can be an effective way of decreasing the spread of COVID until everyone can get vaccinated. I believe Osterholm has said pretty much this same thing. The problem is that the world is not able to use the correct masks in the correct way.

Bottom line: Get vaccinated. Let's get out of this mess!

 

[shank hawk]

Being a science denier is not a legitimate reason to not get the vaccine. In fact, the only true contraindication to getting the vaccine is if you have had an anaphylactic reaction to a previous Covid vaccine or a known previous severe reaction to any component of the vaccine. That's it. It is still recommended for people who are immunocompromised and probably aren't able to mount a big enough of an immune response to confer immunity. Doctors know how the immune system works. We know how to make vaccines. The technology isn't new. I would argue that vaccines are one of the most if not the most important advances in the history of healthcare. Rejecting this vaccine is, in my opinion, detrimental to the world at large.

I will not argue with you as I know your heels are firmly planted into the ground on this issue, but hopefully you can understand that we have scientists that have devoted their entire careers to the development and implementation of vaccines. These people know more than you do. They know more than I do. They understand things on a level that you do not. There is nearly universal consensus that the Covid vaccine is the best way to get out of this pandemic. We have the key to open the door out of this, but far too many are refusing to use the key and are preventing the world from moving forward out of this mess. As a physician who spends most of my day doing preventive medicine, it is frustrating to see how out of touch with reality some people are in terms of getting this vaccine. Believing in junk science and getting your information from nonsensical sources is truly dangerous.

I haven't heard of anyone trying to eliminate informed consent between a doctor and patient. You will always have a choice. I believe in that choice. However, it doesn't stop me from thinking that you are making an incredibly poor choice, not only for yourself, but for the rest of the world.

Junk science?

In 18 months I have posted countless articles/studies/videos from the following organizations & experts:
NYT
WSJ
The Lancet
BMJ
PubMed/NCBI
WHO
CDC
HHS
EuroMomo
Worldometers
Countless data analysts (source
IA & IL & FL Depts/Public Health
Fauci
Birx
Redfield &
Osterholm
Schirmacher*

You only see what you want. Carry on.

German chief pathologist sounds alarm on fatal vaccine injuries - Free West Media | Free West Media

The director of the Pathological Institute of the University of Heidelberg, Peter Schirmacher, has carried out over forty autopsies on people who had died within two weeks of their vaccination. Schirmacher expressed alarm over his findings.

freewestmedia.com

*Added now

 

[strummingram]

Are you referring to Osterholm? I think he is pretty much on board with using masks, but realizes the limitations of them, especially the joke cloth masks. I absolutely agree. SOME masks offer very good protection. Most do not. I think we are pretty much on the same page. However, I do believe that the correct masks used in the correct way can be an effective way of decreasing the spread of COVID until everyone can get vaccinated. I believe Osterholm has said pretty much this same thing. The problem is that the world is not able to use the correct masks in the correct way.

Bottom line: Get vaccinated. Let's get out of this mess!

What you just said is what other posters have been saying, through 8 pages.

And, those details about masks are imperative. Surgical masks aren't helping. And, people futzing with their masks doesn't help, the usual chin-diaper position never works. They are, technically, "better than NOTHING", but it's hardly a measurable "better", when it comes to having any real impact on the overall numbers.

 

[shank hawk]

Odd statement to make, considering someone who linked the historian who wrote about 1918 stated the opposite in an Op Ed.

Bullshit. The article calling masks ‘useless’ was pre-covid.

He changed his tune in March, 2020 because....science?

SOP from our resident “but it’s a dry smoke” science guy, I guess.

 

[at4iowa]

Junk science?

In 18 months I have posted countless articles/studies/videos from the following organizations & experts:
NYT
WSJ
The Lancet
BMJ
PubMed/NCBI
WHO
CDC
HHS
EuroMomo
Worldometers
Countless data analysts (source
IA & IL & FL Depts/Public Health
Fauci
Birx
Redfield &
Osterholm
Schirmacher*

You only see what you want. Carry on.

German chief pathologist sounds alarm on fatal vaccine injuries - Free West Media | Free West Media

The director of the Pathological Institute of the University of Heidelberg, Peter Schirmacher, has carried out over forty autopsies on people who had died within two weeks of their vaccination. Schirmacher expressed alarm over his findings.

freewestmedia.com

*Added now

And none of those sources are saying "don't get vaccinated". If you are coming to the conclusion that respectable medical sources are telling people to not get vaccinated, well, you are wrong.

 

[your_master5]

Joes Place isn't doing that. He's just trying to slightly move the goalpost so he can still say he's right. It's going to turn out the large droplet view was overrated, and the aerosol view was underrated. Of course the "wear your damn mask" crowd rarely acknowledged what the CDC said in the beginning, and that was wearing a mask incorrectly, or handling a mask incorrectly, could cause more harm than good.

Let's just ask this one question about droplets vs. aerosols. If covid was spread mostly by droplets, why do we see these massive seasonal spikes? Oh I know why! People stop sneezing and coughing during those times! Joe's a fvcking idiot and misinformation machine.

 

[shank hawk]

Let's just ask this one question about droplets vs. aerosols. If covid was spread mostly by droplets, why do we see these massive seasonal spikes? Oh I know why! People stop sneezing and coughing during those times! Joe's a fvcking idiot and misinformation machine.

Thread by @the_brumby on Thread Reader App

@the_brumby: The insanity continues, and so shall my rants... 1/20 1. CDC: as long as you muzzle your 3 year old in California, no vaccinated adults at a weeklong sex party in Massachusetts will have an...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[shank hawk]

And none of those sources are saying "don't get vaccinated". If you are coming to the conclusion that respectable medical sources are telling people to not get vaccinated, well, you are wrong.

We were talking about masks.

The article on vaccine pathology? I slipped that in there because I’m an incorrigible asshole and I just sorta felt like it.

 

[your_master5]

Thread by @the_brumby on Thread Reader App

@the_brumby: The insanity continues, and so shall my rants... 1/20 1. CDC: as long as you muzzle your 3 year old in California, no vaccinated adults at a weeklong sex party in Massachusetts will have an...…

threadreaderapp.com

That's some good shit there!

 

[your_master5]

It worked in well-ventilated areas,

I'm sure it's the masks that worked........Dah!

 

[your_master5]

They have for a lot of people who weren't infected until they could get a vaccine.
It's explicitly why they are required in hospitals, particularly children's hospitals.

This is a post filled with total horseshit and zero evidence to back it up. Let's see that Kansas study again!!

 

[swagsurfer02]

This thread isn’t worth it. I’ve been saying this since the start of the pandemic. The “facial covering” thing was to make people feel better.

 

[Tom Paris]

He actually told us 14,000 kids would die if we held in person school.

Lie.

 

[Tom Paris]

While he was on a plane to NO taking his family on vacation at the height of the pandemic.

Lie.

 

[Tom Paris]

Well, technically Tom drove on his spring break trip to a southern Covid hotspot. Then returned to the classroom, to potentially expose the children.
It was Riley who hypocritically flew to California during the November Covid peak.
But, I see your point. They can’t take their own advice when it would cause them inconvenience.

Lie.

 

[haw-key]

See how that goes over with your hospital administration, then.

Obviously referring to my private life outside the hospital. Though I do think that as a vaccinated individual, as long as I’m monitoring for symptoms or fever I don’t think I really need to mask at work but it’s required so no reason to make a big deal of it so I do what I’m asked of course.

 

[RileyHawk]

No one has claimed we're going to control the pandemic with masks alone.
That's your Straw Man.

Yes Yes Yes.

 

[Tom Paris]

Well, you are. By saying masks make a significant difference. They don’t. And, they won’t this time either.
The vaccine is the only real protection.

How do you explain kids not getting colds or the flu this past winter? I’ve told you, teacher after teacher know and say the masks work because kids weren’t getting sick. We all have a stockpile of kleenex this year. What is your response to that? I forget. That’s our evidence that they helped a ton keeping them healthier this year than any other year in my career.

 

[RileyHawk]

Sheezus... This infatuation with sides is exhausting.

It's amazing how much people recoil when a trusted member of the "scientific community" doesn't tow the narrative line.

The masks offer little to no protection. Their affect on mitigation has been miniscule. The 1918 pandemic proved the same to be true. Vaccines, or surviving the virus, are the only real effective measures.

*effect

The 1918 pandemic did not have N95 masks. Your position on this is absurd.

 

[strummingram]

*effect

The 1918 pandemic did not have N95 masks. Your position on this is absurd.

Good point. If there'd only been N95 masks in 1918, so many people would have survived! LOL... I have no doubt you believe that. Continue this thread for another 8 pages arguing about masks and the 1918 flu.

I love seeing so many people threatened by the truth that masks have very little EFFECT on this virus and the Influenza of 1918. And, I've been wearing a mask since early March 2020. I wore a mask even when the people in charge said it was okay to remove them. I knew they spoke too soon. I knew this thing still had some death left in it.

I even admit to the "emotional safety" that masks provide. It does help to make me FEEL protected. But, I also know that it doesn't really protect me. And, I have a box of N-95's in my Jeep at all times. I'm vaccinated and I want everyone to wear masks and get their shots. But, it's obvious that Osterholm is absolutely correct in his assessment of masks being MOSTLY useless. I'm not sure why that truth threatens a few of you so much.