“The sky is falling”

Discussion in 'Iowa Wrestling' started by natchrlman, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. natchrlman

    natchrlman HR MVP
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    No one was more pissed off then I was last night after that dual...I’ve been attending Iowa wrestling matches for 37 years and have read this forum daily year round for about 20...it always amazes me how many whiners show up towards seasons end on here...I’ve seen tournaments where we have a bad round and all the “chicken Little’s flood the board with the negativity only to have the Hawks wrestle back and win....news for you all... we knew what we had coming into this season and if anything this team has overachieved some expectations...what were we ranked 10th early?.....I miss the dominant teams of the past too and find it hard to watch how PSU and OSU have separated from the field the way we once did but all the pissing and moaning and finger pointing on a message board in the world isn’t going to change anything....The Brands are the right coaches to lead this program and they are working hard to get back to the top....realistically we are at a huge disadvantage recruiting wise with PSU and OSU being in the center of huge population bases with tons of high school talent... they have been getting pick of the litter....Iowa is making inroads of late and starting to draw some pretty good wrestlers out of there ....things are looking up in a lot of areas with this program....and we will compete for titles in the future and I’m guessing all the whiners will jump back on the bandwagon...or maybe better yet go away
     
  2. WWDMHawkeye

    WWDMHawkeye HR Heisman
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    Very well said. Anyone with any degree of knowledge and understanding of the context of last night's meet should be on a pretty even keel. We didn't compete well at 74-97 and Stoll's match was disappointing. However, on the whole, the meet wasn't dramatically different from what most wrestling fans would expect.

    Unfortunately, there's a segment of the Iowa fan base that shows up once or twice a year and goes apoplectic when they realize we're not winning Nationals annually. Really, if you're going to completely lose your head on a message board -- even if you're feeling safe and comfortable behind your anonymity -- you ought to have some semblance of a clue first.
     
  3. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
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    Here's what bothers me most -- without Nolf's injury and a hail Mary from Bull, we lose nine straight matches. With the only win coming from a true Frosh whose RS was pulled even as he recovers from a serious injury.

    And in the next two recruiting classes how many top guys are coming in? We have multiple weights stacked with mediocre guys, which is just horrible team planning. And who do we have that has really made significant improvements over their career?

    From recruiting, to roster building, to imprvoving skills, to match awareness, to retaining recruits; I can't identify a single thing TnT are doing so well that it looks like we will be back in the National Title conversation at any point in the next few years.
     
  4. HawkFT

    HawkFT HR All-State
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    I think this pretty much sums it up. Add to that the amount of institutional support that is given to PSU and tOSU whether it be financial or otherwise to make it easier to be more successful and recruit better than anyone. No surprise both of those schools are top 5 in recruiting for football as well. I think there is a clear "institutional" blueprint for their recruiting success for both football and wrestling at these schools from how they communicate with athletes early on and through their entire recruitment. Not to mention where else would kids CHOOSE to go east of Notre Dame to be a part of a "big time" program. PSU and tOSU are the biggest draws and you could throw Michigan in there. Glad TnT have tapped into PA and OH
     
  5. pumpdog20

    pumpdog20 HR All-American
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    Here's the breakdown of Penn State's Lineup last night:

    125: Utah would be NJ with Suriano
    133: Pennsylvania - sucks
    141: Indiana
    149: Pennsylvania
    157: Colorado, but Pennsylvania with Nolf
    165: Pennsylvania
    174: Minnesota/Michigan/whatever
    184: Texas
    197: New York Rasheed/ New Jersery Cassar
    HWT: California

    Ohio State

    125: Ohio
    133: Pennsylvania
    141: New Jersey
    149: Missouri
    157: Ohio
    165: Pennsylvania
    174: Ohio
    184: New Jersey
    197: Ohio
    Hwt: Maryland

    Iowa:
    125: Pennsylvania
    133: Iowa
    141: Iowa/Illinois
    149: Iowa
    157: Pennsylvania
    165: Ohio
    174: Illinois/Pennsylvania
    184: Iowa
    197: Iowa
    Hwt: Minnesota

    Both Penn State and Ohio State only have 40% of their "big population" state represented in their lineup. The fact of the matter is that both Cael and Ryan are kicking Brands' butt in the recruiting game and it only isn't about what state they reside in. When half your lineup is made up of Iowa men, and only one of them is going to be an AA, that is the problem. Maybe the coaches of Iowa/ISU/UNI should have identified this earlier and spent time coming up with a plan to bring Iowa based wrestling back up to par. I think we're starting to see that with SWIFT, SEBOLT, DC ELITE, etc, but those kids are still a few years away.

    I'm still troubled by the "fit" comment used by Brooks' dad? He mentioned east coast blah blah blah. Penn State is not an east coast school even though it might be on the eastern side of the country. I don't see anything culturally different between the 3 schools where any top kid would feel more comfortably at one school over the other other than the vibe in the room. Personally I think Brooks' dad was being diplomatic with his answer. This is why I always thought it was important for Ramos to be around the program.

    Fact of the matter is that Iowa HS wrestling needs to get better. Brands appears to be doing a much better job getting elite out of state recruits (Lee, Warner, Cassiopi, Marinelli, etc) but that has to backed by AA type talent from the home state. I think they know this which is why Eastern Iowa Wrestling Club was born and ran by McDonough and originally by Terry. Let's hope this turns around soon.
     
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  6. natchrlman

    natchrlman HR MVP
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    Exactly
     
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  7. usarmyret2011

    usarmyret2011 Scout Team
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    It isn't the fact that iowa lost that brought the "whiners" out , it's the way they lost and the effort shown after 65 that brought me out. I have been a fan for 35 years with season tickets for 20 and we have too many current starters who refuse to lay it all out there. Just compete, just shoot once in awhile and maybe I will be as satisfied as a super fan such as yourself.
     
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  8. natchrlman

    natchrlman HR MVP
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    Good points.... but part of the reason they are winning recruiting battles in other regions is their recent successes too.... and that starts with kids from their states....how PSU has enough scholarship $ to load up on the bluechippers like they do is kind of a mystery.....I guess because the best recruits have mostly come up with private clubs and wrestled all over the country that they may come from families that can afford out of state tuition? I had daughters that played a lot of club softball and had hitting coaches and it ain’t cheap
     
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  9. natchrlman

    natchrlman HR MVP
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    I’m not claiming to be a super fan and believe me I fast forwarded through the last minute of Wilkes match because I was to pissed to watch it.... but in some of those matches we were just way outmanned by some of the best wrestlers in the country.... 74 and 84 in particular....heavyweights could go either way with Stoll... Nevill and Coon.... Synder is in a different league altogether...
     
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  10. pumpdog20

    pumpdog20 HR All-American
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    This makes sense. However, JayBo, St John,McD, Marion, Gilman, Clark, etc were getting it done too. Brands didn't capitalize.
     
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  11. 23 so far

    23 so far HR MVP
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    I think we'll close the gap the next couple of years, but we have too many dud weights that will cost us at Nationals in the end I think.

    I wouldn't call Marinelli's win a Hail Mary, though statistically unlikely perhaps. He was behind, he wasn't outclassed. He initiated the body lock, and was eventually able to execute it with some help from himself and his adversary. It wasn't some desperation throw with time expiring.Took out a Defending National Champion on his Home mat in the process. That's good wrestling where I come from.

    Clearly Brands and Co. have to do better moving forward. On every count. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best, that's what I'll be doing.
     
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  12. 23 so far

    23 so far HR MVP
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    LOL! I fast forwarded a lot more than you did! I know it took Gunther and Bowman a total of about 1 minute to get collectively pinned, but it only took me 10 seconds to see them both. Combine that with 133-141 fast forwarding, Lee's quick pin for the good guys and it's probably the fastest Iowa Dual I've ever seen. Sadly.

    I know, I'm a bad fan for doing that, I'll deal with it best I can and try to use that saved time productively! ;)
     
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  13. Gusaford

    Gusaford HR All-State
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    I honestly believe next year's recruiting class will tell us whether we have another five years of more of the same, or whether the team can make the jump to the next level to rival PSU and tOSU year in and year out.

    I love Lugo as BS's replacement, but he will be a RS junior next year. Same for Kemerer and Wilcke (assuming Wilcke is at 184 starting next year), both of whom will be RS juniors. That's three weights where TnT have to find replacements in the 2019 recruiting class where we don't currently have "holes."

    Then, we have the weights where we are currently a step or two behind the top talent, and our guys, try as they might, look like they have internal ceilings that are lower than the ceilings of the guys at the upper eschelons of the weight classes: 133, 141, and 174. Maybe Young grows into a strong 174; and maybe Happel turns the corner at 141. I hope so, but I think the odds are against it.

    So, I understand that every team has holes, but TnT will have six weights to restock next year. That's a really tall order.
     
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  14. Chuck C

    Chuck C HR All-American
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    Meh. That’s why you don’t play the “What if” game. Let’s play the what if game the other direction.
    125 Lee
    133 Renteria (Let’s say Teasdale flipped earlier and he was still available)
    141 Gross (He didn’t make a bonehead decision and stayed at Iowa wrestling the weight he did his RS year)
    149 Sorensen
    157 Kemerer
    165 Marinelli
    174 Young (Instead of certifying at 65 he bulked up in the off-season. I’m guessing the coaches were more worried about the Bull’s injury than they let on and wanted Young to cert there just in case)
    184 Downey (His waiver was granted by the NCAA)
    197 Warner
    HWT Stoll
     
  15. HawkeyeDenny

    HawkeyeDenny HR MVP
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    ..And we would still be 3rd, but a solid 3rd... :)
     
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  16. pumpdog20

    pumpdog20 HR All-American
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    Maybe you're right, but I have a hard time seeing that lineup as third.
     
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  17. SwampHawk

    SwampHawk HR Heisman
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    Did you see it beating OSU or PSU? Both?

    Even with all that, I don't think beat either. It's closer, but I don't see that getting it done and putting us over the top.

    I don't have a problem with TnT. I do believe that when the chips have been down this year, many of the guys we need to count on fail to show up from an effort standpoint. Far too often, I was left feeling like our guys were not leaving it all on the mat, and that is the sole source of my discontent.
     
  18. wishin

    wishin All-Conference
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    I think we’ve had several wrestlers that are in that same boat over the years. Guys have the talent just don’t seem to get the most out of it. We thought Wilke turned the corner at nationals last year, but seems to be the same guy as regular season. Gunther is a qualifier that can win a couple matches, but isn’t beating Hall on any day. Stoll with his injuries is in about the same place.

    In the past, Ty Eustice was a guy that was good, just never top dog, Mike Zadick, M*, Evans even Gilman. All seemed like they could turn the corner, just never did. The thing this year to me is, those aren’t the best guys on the team. We’ve got 3-5 guys that are better than Cash and Joey. That’s why it feels to me that we are really starting to turn the corner.
     
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  19. Fan In Black

    Fan In Black HR Legend
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    Im in the crowd that thinks Iowa HS wrestling is down and it affects the program. I just dont know how you can say the state is producing elite talent in numbers like it did in the past, but Ill listen to arguments otherwise.
     
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  20. HoundedHawk

    HoundedHawk HR Legend
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    The sky is falling, lol? It fell years ago.
     
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  21. IRONBIRD

    IRONBIRD Team MVP
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    Hmm??? You do not see this line up beating......

    1st lets look at this dual and do some simple math.

    25- 6-0 Iowa
    33- with Jrent 10-0
    41- with Gross 13-0
    49-13-3
    57- 17-3
    65 - 20-3
    74 - 20-9
    84 with PD3 I will give them 3 but would take pd3 myself 20-12
    97 - 20-16
    Hvy -20-19 IOWA!

    at Nationals 25, 41, 49, 57, 65, 84 would all be Finalist type guys! with 33 and Hvy solid AA's and 97 a decent shot!

    YES this line up wins! and they could also have pulled Warners shirt!
     
  22. jvclark

    jvclark HR All-State
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    I get what you are saying. But if we are going to hang our hats on Iowa HS school wrestling being the "cog" in the machine that is keeping us from winning again, it may be a long wait. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it will take time for the in state wrestling clubs to turn over studs to the D1 ranks. And that is assuming that when they do, they all go to Iowa city rather than cedar falls and Ames

    Look back on Gables hey day years. Sure there were Iowa wrestlers in the lineup, but they were a supplement(or at best equal) in many years to the out of state talent. Mcilravey, banachs, heffernans, Deanna, r Lewis, chipparelli, kistlers, the lost goes on.....

    I've said this before, but we are just out populated. On any given year the talent in Iowa vs Ohio/penn is similar, just a lot less of it(I know that is a generalizing statement and it goes up and down) Ohio is almost 4x Iowa and Penn is 4x our population. So if Iowa will produce one kid a year that will end up a NCAA champ, Ohio and penn will produce four?? We can't win with those odds.

    Now to your point about only 40% of their lineups are from in state kids---but more than 40% of there points are from in state kids, I think?

    It's just too damn easy for PSU and fOSU to win, keeping those "in state points" in state.

    Keep in mind, those out of state talents didn't just start coming to Iowa the day gable showed up. It took a few years.

    Making in rows to Penn(via young guns) and hopefully more in Ohio(st Paris) is a great start, but we need more.

    The fact is, it's not going to be easy, or cheap to both recruit and subsequently get these out of state studs to IC.
     
  23. IAChief32

    IAChief32 HR All-American
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    Hail Mary? Down by two, had backed out of every clinch but then locks up to a guy that was tired in the third and beat him at his own game with over a minute left. It's not like it was ten seconds to go. Bull wrestled a great match against a very good opponent, is undefeated after beating Chandler, Campbell, Wanzek, Lewis (2X), Massa, and Cenzo and has done it on a bum knee that will likely require surgery immediately after the season. A lot of people thought he was going to be a 3-4 loss guy by now at one of the deeper weight classes in the country. About time we start giving him some credit. This is not to say he rolls through B1G or NCAAs unscathed but he is a tough guy both physically and mentally.
     
  24. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
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    I gave him credit in another thread. I love Bull -- his ability, his attitude, and his style. He definitely showed that as a Frosh he's in the NC conversation; which is wonderful and impressive.

    I just feel that when you're behind in the third and haven't scored an offensive point, going for a big throw is a last ditch effort.

    On the other hand, for some reason I though Cenzo had riding time wrapped up, so that a throw was Bull's only shot. I just rewatched and noticed I was wrong about that.

    So I retract the "Hail Mary."
     
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  25. IRONBIRD

    IRONBIRD Team MVP
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    Was NOT going for a "big Throw" He was attacking the whole match and forced the lock! He obviously felt that he could win the position and did!
     
  26. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
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    Well, he was trying high percentage leg attacks all match and kept being thwarted. I'm pretty sure he didn't go into the match with a throw as his first objective.

    Btw, I was fine with going for the big move (and, yes, a six point feet-to-back is a big move) because nothing else was working, so there was nothing to lose. That doesn't mean it wasn't a great decision and a great move. It was.
     
  27. cidhawkeye

    cidhawkeye HR Heisman
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    I think that you will see the 'fit' to be less of an issue, with Kem, Lee, Bull, Warner in the room there seems to be a change of approach and attitude. Iowa was getting attacked pretty hard in recruiting battles about 'fit'. I think Brands has even mentioned the change in attitude of people and wanting to do things 'the right way' we shall see. Iowa isn't that far away.
     
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  28. bcdeputy

    bcdeputy Team MVP
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    so the late season "whiners" are out and upsetting the entire season "settlers"?

    Not posting often doesn't equate to a lack of wrestling knowledge regardless of what WDMHawkeye seems to think
     
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  29. LaxHawk174

    LaxHawk174 HR All-American
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    Its not the post count that irks people, its the whiners that dont seem to have any grasp on the landscape of college wrestling today who are stuck in the gable years in their heads, and further dont have a semblance of a clue about what steps are being taken to correct the issues by our coaching staff.

    Criticism is fine, but many seem to think they're posting unique original ideas that havent been discussed ad naseum here the past 5+ years.
     
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  30. FineMaterial

    FineMaterial HR All-State
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    Didn't HR have this figured out years ago? I thought the situation was that as soon as Taylor and Ruth were done Iowa would start winning nationals again? I read that here, right?:rolleyes:
     
    30 FineMaterial, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  31. WEH8ST8HAWK

    WEH8ST8HAWK HR All-American
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    It's guys like this that make me bring out the Pedophile comments. Fine Material probably attended Ped State football camp as a kid and is all butthurt now.
     
  32. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
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    Those conversations do cross my mind now and then. Once the unicorns are gone all will be back to normal. But Kale just keeps bringing out more unicorns than an Irish Rovers song.
     
  33. bphawkeye_Rivals

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    Look - Fine has been around these Iowa boards forever. Came over to discuss Iowa v PSU wrestling way before Carl was a coach there. And was very good about his observations. For the most part - he is not the problem. It is all the 4 post jerks that piss me off. And I also get suckered into the Ped discussions sometimes (I always regret it too)
     
  34. bphawkeye_Rivals

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    I know - seems like instead of 2 studs they get 4, and now 5? They all show up as true FR studs = they are coached to be great before they hit the campus at Happy V.
     
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  35. IAChief32

    IAChief32 HR All-American
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    I agree with you on some but look at their 197. He was good at 65 for a period but just didn't have any gas. Explodes up to 197 and looks huge now and has the gas to go with it. He was not "great" before PSU. Folks couldn't beat Zain because of his top game but he made a national team largely on the strength of his neutral. But yea, Zain beat an all timer his freshman year and was able to start to impose his will after gaining strength and bumping up to 149. Guys like Nolf, Nickal, and Hall were freaks before PSU. Nolf, Cenzo, Lee, Kemerer, Nico...all Young Guns products and all are contenders or champs. While Cael and Tom deserve some credit, they are taking the handoff on these guys IMO.
     
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  36. akaoni

    akaoni All-Conference
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    My two biggest areas of concern with Iowa are recruiting, which has been discussed ad nauseam here and mat wrestling which has not.

    Outside of Lee, I see Iowa wrestlers consistently being beaten in the mat wrestling game. In top position we have difficulty controlling our opponents and keeping them down, where-as we have trouble on bottom, particularly against folks who do leg rides. I've been reticent to complain about this on a silly internet message board, however it is really frustrating.

    I'm not saying all our wrestlers need to start throwing the legs in, but spiral ride/arm bar sequences are just not cutting it. I don't know if it's coaching, recruiting, or what, but I feel like our guys on the whole get beat in mat wrestling and with the 4-point near fall rules it's more important than ever to have tilts and other methods to expose opponents available.
     
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