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14 States Have School Choice Voucher Programs

Let's be 100% honest. The only reason the Republican state goverment is doing this is because of the way the public schools have been run for decades. If the unions were solely concerned with wages, working conditions and the like this law would never have been considered. Instead the unions are very pro Dem party and everyone knows it. They work for the dems they donate to the dems they teach dem priorities, etc. Did the dems actually expect the Republicans not to push back?
 
Let's be 100% honest. The only reason the Republican state goverment is doing this is because of the way the public schools have been run for decades. If the unions were solely concerned with wages, working conditions and the like this law would never have been considered. Instead the unions are very pro Dem party and everyone knows it. They work for the dems they donate to the dems they teach dem priorities, etc. Did the dems actually expect the Republicans not to push back?
Finally some honesty. This has nothing to do with education or money. It's all about revenge. Everybody and their kid brother knows that this will waste money and lower scores. The real purpose is to stick it to the libs.
 
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I will not pretend to be able to answer that one, as it's a really big sausage making exercise. :)

I will say this though - I do not think vouchers are a broad based model for education, but rather a limited measure that should be explored to address smaller scale problems in underperforming schools. What you don't want is for them to simply be a subsidy for rich families' private tuition.
I can understand somewhat, if there are income requirements. But if you pull the top students out of poorly performing schools, won't it make those schools worse off than before?
 
You are decreasing the size of public schools, with fewer teachers, fewer facilities, less environmentals, etc. by essentially outsourcing education to others for less than half of what the public pays.
as we found out in iowa with medicade. costs when up when privatized.
 
Finally some honesty. This has nothing to do with education or money. It's all about revenge. Everybody and their kid brother knows that this will waste money and lower scores. The real purpose is to stick it to the libs.
Private schools have, by and large, better test scores and smaller class sizes than public. This would provide access to private schools to more people. I understand that may water down private scores, but to say it has nothing to do with education is ignorance.
 
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If the voucher program is modeled on Indiana, a number of the 10k kids will not currently be in public schools. There will be no savings.
 
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Private schools have, by and large, better test scores and smaller class sizes than public. This would provide access to private schools to more people. I understand that may water down private scores, but to say it has nothing to do with education is ignorance.

Again, when you look at the 10 year history of Indiana's voucher program the academic achievement of kids using vouchers was the same for Language Arts and worse for Math when compared to the peers from their home public school.
 
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I can understand somewhat, if there are income requirements. But if you pull the top students out of poorly performing schools, won't it make those schools worse off than before?
I think you could easily establish a system whereby the eligibility criteria is (i) poor performing school, and (ii) preference for low income. Totally behind that.

I think it's too speculative to guess the statistical effects, but my guess is that as a practical matter (i) probably takes care of most of the problem in that poor performing schools are likely not high income. But no problem with formalizing (ii).
 
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I’m genuinely surprised vouchers have so much support in a rural state like Iowa. It’s creating active competition among schools which is just wrong, when public schools are required to be available to all students regardless of ability. As top students leave, rougher schools will fall further behind. Public schools are the lifeblood of rural towns and I have to believe they’re going to suffer greatly when dollars that should go to them are going to private schools.

Let’s just call it what it is. Republicans have found a winning issue when it comes to public education by convincing mama bear that the school board is going to turn their child into a sexual deviant. Those lazy ass teachers only work nine months of the year. That $38,000/year salary is awfully generous.

Kudos to R’s for being better at taking advantage of boogeyman issues. It does help win elections. Meanwhile, Iowa hasn’t been tops in public education since the Vilsack years.
 
Finally some honesty. This has nothing to do with education or money. It's all about revenge. Everybody and their kid brother knows that this will waste money and lower scores. The real purpose is to stick it to the libs.
Again you missed the point. If the unions wanted to stop legislation related to schools, they would change their ways. But, everyone knows they won't so this is what happens.
 
Private schools have, by and large, better test scores and smaller class sizes than public. This would provide access to private schools to more people. I understand that may water down private scores, but to say it has nothing to do with education is ignorance.
They've already studied this. Private schools do no better than public when these factors are controlled for. And Abby already admitted what the real motive is. Why keep lying about it? Do you really think that this will help poor kids? It will not. They will never get in these schools to begin with.
 
I’m genuinely surprised vouchers have so much support in a rural state like Iowa. It’s creating active competition among schools which is just wrong, when public schools are required to be available to all students regardless of ability. As top students leave, rougher schools will fall further behind. Public schools are the lifeblood of rural towns and I have to believe they’re going to suffer greatly when dollars that should go to them are going to private schools.

Let’s just call it what it is. Republicans have found a winning issue when it comes to public education by convincing mama bear that the school board is going to turn their child into a sexual deviant. Those lazy ass teachers only work nine months of the year. That $38,000/year salary is awfully generous.

Kudos to R’s for being better at taking advantage of boogeyman issues. It does help win elections. Meanwhile, Iowa hasn’t been tops in public education since the Vilsack years.
As a Virginian who lives right next door to the recent "sexual deviant" controversies (Loudoun County), let me just note that the question of vouchers has been around long before the 2021 election cycle where the issue caught the public eye.

If you really want to invoke a long-term right wing boogeyman, better to stick with arguing that this is something to pump up religion. Even if the legal pathway for such programs is clearly there.
 
What’s funny about that? The public pays about $12K now per student. The voucher will outsource that student for $5,200. That student is now getting educated for $5,200 instead of $12K or ~43%.
For rich kids. Poor families will not be able to afford the difference. So congrats, we are now subsidizing well off kids at the expense of everybody else.
 
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You seriously don't see public money going to a religious school as an "establishment of religion"? And before you start, states can't pass laws that violate the Constitution so the idea that it isn't the federal govt doing it is completely immaterial.
Not when they don't stipulate which private school you have to go to. If they say you can have this voucher if you attend the Catholic school, then you might have a case. This? no.
 
As a Virginian who lives right next door to the recent "sexual deviant" controversies (Loudoun County), let me just note that the question of vouchers has been around long before the 2021 election cycle where the issue caught the public eye.

If you really want to invoke a long-term right wing boogeyman, better to stick with arguing that this is something to pump up religion. Even if the legal pathway for such programs is clearly there.
Oh I know it’s been around. My point is the other stuff regarding communist school boards is relatively new compared to the religious issue and it’s all snowballed into why the voucher bill has such momentum.
 
$52M is a lot, BUT those 10K students also leave behind ~$70M (assuming ~$12K per student) to the public schools and won’t be a burden to it. PLUS, that’s 10K fewer students that need to be accounted for in the public schools. Like I said, some could be absorbed into the existing structure, but not all. See my CR Xavier example.

You are decreasing the size of public schools, with fewer teachers, fewer facilities, less environmentals, etc. by essentially outsourcing education to others for less than half of what the public pays.
school funding is tied to how many students they have. The more students you pull out, the more funding they lose. Sending kids to private schools does not result in a net savings for the school. And you’re not magically reducing facilities barring a massive drop in enrollment so there’s no savings on utility bills, and likely not in teachers either.
 
On a side note, why shouldn't parents be permitted to use their tax money to send their children to the schools the parents believe will teach curriculum and values most closely related to their own?

To take another swing at a dead horse, I was disgusted at what I was hearing some districts were teaching about white privilege, CRT, eliminating valedictorians and AP courses just so some students don't feel bad. I want the schools to just teach math, history, science, civics, English, language etc not values, politics, 1619, sex ed, religion that is the purview of the parents. It is bad enough we are all over taxed now they want to teach values contrary to our own using our money.
 
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I have no idea what you're arguing. Are you saying we can take our tax dollars and rather than allowing them to be used for the general welfare, we can use them for our own welfare? I want a voucher for defense...the military doesn't need my money and they waste what they do have. I can use it to fund my own personal defense force. It's called CHOICE.
You obviously don't know what I'm arguing. I stated why this doesn't conflict with the first amendment. Nothing else.
 
What’s funny about that? The public pays about $12K now per student. The voucher will outsource that student for $5,200. That student is now getting educated for $5,200 instead of $12K or ~43%.
Ummm...the rest of that $12K still goes to the schools. And $5,200 isn't getting you into good private schools. It might get you into one of those "academies" that closes a week before the first day of school throwing hundreds of kids BACK into the public system...minus the $5,200 that disappeared down a rabbit hole. In North Carolina private schools accepting vouchers don't need licensed teachers. They don't have to meet any state curricular standards. They don't even need to be accredited by ANY governing body. One closed a few years ago in the middle of the year...just - boom - gone. They dumped 150 kids back int the public school system...and those students had to be placed. Have you ever heard of a public school closing in the middle of the year and dumping the kids on private schools?

As I stated earlier, you give a kid $5,200 to strike out on their own...any school that accepts one has to accept EVERY OTHER STUDENT who shows up at their door with that voucher. Period. They have to waive the rest of their tuition for any children who don't have the means to pay more. They must address any disablilities of those children as required by law. They can't kick a student younger than 16 out without providing for a corresponding educational environment at THEIR expense. They must administer and report the results of ALL state and local testing. In other words, if they want public money they are subject to exactly the same criteria and constraints placed on public schools. Why would you have a problem with that?
 
Let's be 100% honest. The only reason the Republican state goverment is doing this is because of the way the public schools have been run for decades. If the unions were solely concerned with wages, working conditions and the like this law would never have been considered. Instead the unions are very pro Dem party and everyone knows it. They work for the dems they donate to the dems they teach dem priorities, etc. Did the dems actually expect the Republicans not to push back?
I suggest you look at the rights of Iowa State Education Association. The state government has already taken away most of their bargaining rights and limited the amount that wages can be increased. The state did this while also retaining the law that makes it illegal for teachers in Iowa to strike (which teachers gave up in order to be able to collective bargain). The teacher's union in Iowa has very little power anymore.
 
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... are completely against helping kids escape poor education at primary and secondary education for way cheaper.
No one is against kids escaping a poor education. They want these states to not neglect underfund their public schools, which this bill will exacerbate.
 
But if you pull the top students out of poorly performing schools, won't it make those schools worse off than before?
It might be just the opposite. The school itself will likely see lower scores because you’re pulling out top students, but that’s correlation and not causation. It won’t cause the school to be worse, in fact it would likely allow more specific teaching/training to help the lower performing students that remain.
 
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As a Virginian who lives right next door to the recent "sexual deviant" controversies (Loudoun County), let me just note that the question of vouchers has been around long before the 2021 election cycle where the issue caught the public eye.

If you really want to invoke a long-term right wing boogeyman, better to stick with arguing that this is something to pump up religion. Even if the legal pathway for such programs is clearly there.

10 years of voucher experience in Indiana. It is about rewarding upper middle class white people who are sending their kids to private schools.
 
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Ummm...the rest of that $12K still goes to the schools. And $5,200 isn't getting you into good private schools. It might get you into one of those "academies" that closes a week before the first day of school throwing hundreds of kids BACK into the public system...minus the $5,200 that disappeared down a rabbit hole. In North Carolina private schools accepting vouchers don't need licensed teachers. They don't have to meet any state curricular standards. They don't even need to be accredited by ANY governing body. One closed a few years ago in the middle of the year...just - boom - gone. They dumped 150 kids back int the public school system...and those students had to be placed. Have you ever heard of a public school closing in the middle of the year and dumping the kids on private schools?

As I stated earlier, you give a kid $5,200 to strike out on their own...any school that accepts one has to accept EVERY OTHER STUDENT who shows up at their door with that voucher. Period. They have to waive the rest of their tuition for any children who don't have the means to pay more. They must address any disablilities of those children as required by law. They can't kick a student younger than 16 out without providing for a corresponding educational environment at THEIR expense. They must administer and report the results of ALL state and local testing. In other words, if they want public money they are subject to exactly the same criteria and constraints placed on public schools. Why would you have a problem with that?
I could make a joke about how Covid impacted public schools in my neck of the woods, but I won't.

In any event:


So, it probably depends a bit what level of school we're talking about (elementary v high school), but $5200 would appear to be the average tuition. And recognize that, just like the public schools, private schools get cross-subsidies of their own beyond tuition (eg, from alumni donations, affiliated churches, etc.). For that reason, I don't think it's quite so simple to say that the extra subsidy won't get you into a good private school, because their tuitions are really just like college tuitions -- ie, sticker prices, with diffential pricing among attendees via scholarships and other background subsidies that can be driven by a lot of factors like academics, athletics, or the institution's mission.

Now obviously, any program should be accompanied by accreditation and financial stability standards for the schools - if NC was really stupid enough not to have that, well, shame on them, or at least, if fraud has occurred, go get the money. But as to your "all comers" argument, I think you're missing the point of these programs - they are by no means a substitute for public education, they are (or should be) an option in a hopefully small number of places where it's not working. BTW, as to disabilities, this is obviously a sensitive issue (and has been to me personally), but you might be surprised at the ability of many private schools to accommodate students with disabilities, including through programs specifically designed for that purpose.
 
I am just stunned that people don't understand what is happening here. This is the EXACT SAME playbook that ALEC, Devos, and the Republicans of Indiana used to introduce vouchers a decade ago.

Step 1: Bemoan all the poor kids stuck in low performing schools. Chide people for not caring about them
Step 2: Create a "common sense" voucher program "targeted" at helping those kids
Step 3: In the next legislative session extoll the virtues of the program and proclaim that we are being unfair to all kids by not allowing vouchers regardless of school performance. Expand the program and strip off the guardrails and targeted use
Step 4: Ignore the poor results and expand the program to even wealthier families
Step 5: (where Indiana is right now) Create Education Savings Accounts for homeschool families so they can get voucher money
 
10 years of voucher experience in Indiana. It is about rewarding upper middle class white people who are sending their kids to private schools.
Out of curiosity, does IN have means testing eligibility/preferences?
 
school funding is tied to how many students they have. The more students you pull out, the more funding they lose. Sending kids to private schools does not result in a net savings for the school. And you’re not magically reducing facilities barring a massive drop in enrollment so there’s no savings on utility bills, and likely not in teachers either.
Yes and no. Local taxes for schools go to schools no matter the enrollment. For state, my understanding is the difference is back in the pool so the $2K that does not get included in the voucher is added to the pool and thus gets added to the amount per pupil.
Like I said, some kids going private to public could be integrated without much change, but not likely when looking at school district as a whole. If CR Xavier closed you’d have ~700 students added back to the public high schools and you’d bet your ass you’d need to hire more teachers, supports staff, and likely more facilities.
 
I am just stunned that people don't understand what is happening here. This is the EXACT SAME playbook that ALEC, Devos, and the Republicans of Indiana used to introduce vouchers a decade ago.

Step 1: Bemoan all the poor kids stuck in low performing schools. Chide people for not caring about them
Step 2: Create a "common sense" voucher program "targeted" at helping those kids
Step 3: In the next legislative session extoll the virtues of the program and proclaim that we are being unfair to all kids by not allowing vouchers regardless of school performance. Expand the program and strip off the guardrails and targeted use
Step 4: Ignore the poor results and expand the program to even wealthier families
Step 5: (where Indiana is right now) Create Education Savings Accounts for homeschool families so they can get voucher money
But therein lies the rub -- the problem is not steps 1 and 2, it's steps 3 and 4, which I wholeheartedly agree is not how these programs should be used.

BTW, I am somewhat heartened by the fact that we seem to have gotten off of the religious/nonreligious objection a bit, and are focused more on the simple question of private subsidies generally.
 
But therein lies the rub -- the problem is not steps 1 and 2, it's steps 3 and 4, which I wholeheartedly agree is not how these programs should be used.

True, but Steps 3 and 4 are the goal of the people pushing this legislation. Steps 1 and 2 are the trojan horse. They don't give 2 shits about Steps 1 and 2.
 
True, but Steps 3 and 4 are the goal of the people pushing this legislation. Steps 1 and 2 are the trojan horse. They don't give 2 shits about Steps 1 and 2.
No doubt, but there are trojan horses in public policy debates on all sides of all issues. In federal legislation, we call them "demonstration projects" or "emergency spending." Best, therefore, to focus on what is actually in front of you, and fight what you really don't want when it's presented.
 
Out of curiosity, does IN have means testing eligibility/preferences?

Persons in HouseholdAnnual household income limit for a "90%" Choice Scholarship
SCHOOL VOUCHER PROGRAM INCOME LIMITS BY HOUSEHOLD SIZE 2021-2022 SCHOOL YEAR
1$75,425
2$101,621
3$127,817
4$154,013
5$180,209
6$206,405
7$232,601
8$258,797
9$284,993
10$311,189


For comparison, the median household income in Indiana is $58,235.
 
Wouldn't it be wiser to find out why those schools underperform? And does it only apply to underperforming schools? If so, who gets to decide which schools are underperforming?
It's not really a fair comparison though because the different schools aren't operating under the same set of rules. There are far more requirements and regulations for Public Schools than private schools. Of course private schools are going to "perform" better when they can pick and choose their students, do not have to make accommodations for IEP students (who likely won't be allowed in anyway unless they are good at a sport), or have to undergo state testing.

The separation of church and state aside (which should be the end of the conversation, really), for private schools to get public money but not have to meet all of the same mandates that public schools do is a crime. At a minimum, private schools that accept public money should now be required to accept IEP students, take all the state tests, and meet all the other mandates public schools are expected to do.
 
No doubt, but there are trojan horses in public policy debates on all sides of all issues. In federal legislation, we call them "demonstration projects" or "emergency spending." Best, therefore, to focus on what is actually in front of you, and fight what you really don't want when it's presented.

When you have information about how these programs typically progress you can't ignore what is possible behind what is currently presented.

I am stuck in the system now. I want people to be aware so another state doesn't fall into this shit show.
 
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SCHOOL VOUCHER PROGRAM INCOME LIMITS BY HOUSEHOLD SIZE 2021-2022 SCHOOL YEAR
Persons in HouseholdAnnual household income limit for a "90%" Choice Scholarship
1$75,425
2$101,621
3$127,817
4$154,013
5$180,209
6$206,405
7$232,601
8$258,797
9$284,993
10$311,189


For comparison, the median household income in Indiana is $58,235.
Interesting. 130% of median is not horrible (though I agree, not great) as a simple eligibility standard. Assuming that there is some finite number of scholarships available, are there further preferences in award based on either income or degree of school crappiness? If not, I agree, this is not the way I'd design a program like this. But again, important not to let the great get in the way of the good.
 
Interesting. 130% of median is not horrible (though I agree, not great) as a simple eligibility standard. Assuming that there is some finite number of scholarships available, are there further preferences in award based on either income or degree of school crappiness? If not, I agree, this is not the way I'd design a program like this. But again, important not to let the great get in the way of the good.

That is for a household of one. No one in a household of one is getting a voucher unless they are an emancipated minor.

You have to qualify in 1 of 7 ways but they are so wide open there is essentially no way a kid won't qualify.

There is no limit on the number of vouchers allowed. Indiana currently has about 35k kids getting vouchers. Of those ~175 qualify under the failing school exemption.
 
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