233 Out of 234 House Dems Just Agreed To Let Biological Men Take Over Women’s Athletics

[FAUlty Gator]

Name one time what you describedhas happened. One time where a male joined a female team prior to “state” and competed.

We are at the beginning steps of this. A law was just passed, wasn't it? Two years ago you could have said, "Name one time a trans wrestler dominated a tournament and won state." Now there are plenty of similar stories like this. Again...good for them. But there's going to be way more controversy and issues with it than you're pretending there's going to be. And like I said, it's going to cause a lot of anti-trans leagues to be popping up.

 

[theIowaHawk]

We are at the beginning steps of this. A law was just passed, wasn't it? Two years ago you could have said, "Name one time a trans wrestler dominated a tournament and won state." Now there are plenty of similar stories like this. Again...good for them. But there's going to be way more controversy and issues with it than you're pretending there's going to be. And like I said, it's going to cause a lot of anti-trans leagues to be popping up.

You literally just said it is happening.

And I already asked you, what would be the problem with those “anti-trans” leagues opening?

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Was that an answer to my question? Because you seem to have answered your own question I didn’t ask.

What would be the problem of private AAU type programs popping up?

I did answer it. I missed the word "call" before them.

What's the problem with AAU type programs? Again, nothing. But people like to play for their schools. College coaches like to deal with high school coaches and hate dealing with AAUs. AAU's cost money. They end up traveling more. But don't worry...when this happens, there will be a new law outlawing them, calling them discriminatory. Rinse and repeat.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

You literally just said it is happening.

And I already asked you, what would be the problem with those “anti-trans” leagues opening?

Yes...biological boys are playing girls sports and dominating them already. Do you not read the news? Other has been answered.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I did answer it. I missed the word "call" before them.

What's the problem with AAU type programs? Again, nothing. But people like to play for their schools. College coaches like to deal with high school coaches and hate dealing with AAUs. AAU's cost money. They end up traveling more. But don't worry...when this happens, there will be a new law outlawing them, calling them discriminatory. Rinse and repeat.

You brought up these AAU circuits as a downside and now say there is nothing wrong with them.

Every time you say something you walk it back, other than your contention that this will be a problem.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Yes...biological boys are playing girls sports and dominating them already. Do you not read the news? Other has been answered.

So, no, you can provide nothing to support what YOU claimed has and is happening. You could “see it now,” and when I challenged you on it, you said it was happening. Just scroll up.

 

[PerkyForHerky]

You have no idea what was stolen from you.

Ignorance is bliss

 

[naturalmwa]

Ignorance is bliss

Not so much for your boys.

 

[Huey Grey]

Yes...biological boys are playing girls sports and dominating them already. Do you not read the news? Other has been answered.

Are they really dominating, though? If trans kids only crown champions a few times out of hundreds is that really domination?

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Are they really dominating, though? If trans kids only crown champions a few times out of hundreds is that really domination?

If it's due to having an unfair advantage (which it most certainly is) than one is too much. And we know that it's way more than that.

The bottom line is, for you to support this, you have to either be:
--completely delusional and believe that is no advantage that a biological boy has over a girl in athletics. Or...
--not care about said advantage and be OK with allowing it.

That's what this is about. It's not about discrimination. It's about fairness of competition. Either you want an even playing fields or you don't.

 

[seminoleed]

I can't wait for Koepka, DJ, et. al. start entering LPGA tournaments. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

[Huey Grey]

If it's due to having an unfair advantage (which it most certainly is) than one is too much. And we know that it's way more than that.

The bottom line is, for you to support this, you have to either be:
--completely delusional and believe that is no advantage that a biological boy has over a girl in athletics. Or...
--not care about said advantage and be OK with allowing it.

That's what this is about. It's not about discrimination. It's about fairness of competition. Either you want an even playing fields or you don't.

I fall under category B. I don't care. Athletics has never been a place of level playing fields which is why Rick Moranis never made it to the NFL but Bo Jackson did. Athletics thrives on extreme body types.

 

[BioHawk]

I don't know enough about the science to have an informed opinion on this. I would need to see if a biological male who has undergone hormone therapy still has a biological advantage (i.e. higher testosterone) than biological females have. There has been surprisingly little discussion on this part of the debate.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Is this the start of the Dems waging a "war on women??

Don’t be fooled by the flowery wording of the bill and its promises of equality. It would do nothing but gut women’s sports and shred the confidence of any budding female athlete in the process.

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/2...Xzm5-g1J-9VUBDuTiAPt7LC46vE7WyRRBRngsOLmC5VUk

(1) Do really think there are that many transgender athletes?
(2) Do you really think males will cross over just to win a female competition?
(3) Did you have any interest in women's sports before ?

For the record, this should be studied , but alarmist articles by people who probably paid no attention to women's or girls' sports and only watched, if at all, because of the good looks of some of the competitors, will not help. .

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I fall under category B. I don't care. Athletics has never been a place of level playing fields which is why Rick Moranis never made it to the NFL but Bo Jackson did. Athletics thrives on extreme body types.

OK...now we are getting somewhere. So, now we break it down to the fact that we divide the sexes due to an inherent collective advantage. Not an individual one (ala Bo Jackson and Rick Moranis). If someone within that collective sex has a physical advantage, oh well. That's always been the way. And that way is now being challenged. Once you allow biological males to compete with that inherent advantage against females, we are no longer dividing the sexes. The game has changed. Which is fine...but the pro-trans folks don't want to admit that.

The trans advocates want to both allow them to compete but also want all of us to act as if biology and it's advantages don't exist. They just want us to accept that putting on the skirt, makes them female field hockey players and that's that. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be arguing on the grounds of discrimination- that they are indeed girls and keeping them out is picking on a group within that female subset. That's just dishonest.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I don't know enough about the science to have an informed opinion on this. I would need to see if a biological male who has undergone hormone therapy still has a biological advantage (i.e. higher testosterone) than biological females have. There has been surprisingly little discussion on this part of the debate.

Well, outside of hormones, testosterone and estrogen there are other physical inherent advantages that men have. For instance, the injury rate to the anterior cruciate ligament is significantly higher in female than in male athletes. There is also heart, lung, muscle and skeletal size that make a huge difference, chemistry aside.

 

[Capernum]

What about those with natural testosterone levels that are high? Those that aren’t trans, but born with those types of issues? Is that like being 6’7”? Just genetic lottery?

I think you leave it to the doctors to establish gender. And if the hormonal levels of an intersex person (as in the case of the track star) reach a certain threshold then they should compete with the gender that corresponds with their hormone level. Intersex is a difficult and complicated issue, but there is science there and I am comfortable with letting the doctors make the call. Trans is a different issue in my mind.

 

[Capernum]

Well, outside of hormones, testosterone and estrogen there are other physical inherent advantages that men have. For instance, the injury rate to the anterior cruciate ligament is significantly higher in female than in male athletes. There is also heart, lung, muscle and skeletal size that make a huge difference, chemistry aside.

I have read a little bit, and the pro-trans crowd uses contemporary testosterone levels for the base of their argument. A post transition female does not currently have male levels of testosterone in their system and therefore no advantage. But that does not take into account the impact that adolescent testosterone surges had on the person pre-transition. So you get a 6'9" person with broader shoulders than any biological female.

 

[Capernum]

(1) Do really think there are that many transgender athletes?
(2) Do you really think males will cross over just to win a female competition?
(3) Did you have any interest in women's sports before ?

For the record, this should be studied , but alarmist articles by people who probably paid no attention to women's or girls' sports and only watched, if at all, because of the good looks of some of the competitors, will not help. .

This is why I started paying attention to this. My daughter was competing in track against a child who was transitioning, but had not fully transitioned yet. So here is a child that is taking hormones that gave them a distinct athletic advantage over the other girls and it made me pause in my thinking.

Edited for clarification: the child was transitioning female to male, so was taking hormones but still competing in girls sports.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I have read a little bit, and the pro-trans crowd uses contemporary testosterone levels for the base of their argument. A post transition female does not currently have male levels of testosterone in their system and therefore no advantage. But that does not take into account the impact that adolescent testosterone surges had on the person pre-transition. So you get a 6'9" person with broader shoulders than any biological female.

The muscle fiber isn't going away instantly. Neither is lung capacity, heart size or skeletal, ligament strength. And by the time it does, you've got 2-4 years of domination under your belt. How long does a career last?

 

[pablow]

Well, outside of hormones, testosterone and estrogen there are other physical inherent advantages that men have. For instance, the injury rate to the anterior cruciate ligament is significantly higher in female than in male athletes. There is also heart, lung, muscle and skeletal size that make a huge difference, chemistry aside.

The Act defines "gender."

(2) GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.
​

Requiring a male that identifies as a female to go through hormone testing and treatment as a condition to compete as a female athlete is probably unlawful under this law.

Also, wouldn't Title IX require schools to offer athletic programs and scholarships for all genders?

 

[Capernum]

The Act defines "gender."

(2) GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.
​

Requiring a male that identifies as a female to go through hormone testing and treatment as a condition to compete as a female athlete is probably unlawful under this law.

Also, wouldn't Title IX require schools to offer athletic programs and scholarships for all genders?

I feel like this is very vague. What constitutes appearance, mannerisms, or other gender related characteristics? Like long hair? Is that female?

I feel a little dirty being on this side of this issue because I am a staunch advocate for trans people. But I am also a staunch advocate for girls and girls athletics and this feels not ok to me.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

The Act defines "gender."

(2) GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.
​

Wow...could you get a more loos interpretation of "female" than that? Who determines what "mannerisms" are that of a female?​

 

[gohawks50]

This is why I started paying attention to this. My daughter was competing in track against a child who was transitioning, but had not fully transitioned yet. So here is a child that is taking hormones that gave them a distinct athletic advantage over the other girls and it made me pause in my thinking.

Edited for clarification: the child was transitioning female to male, so was taking hormones but still competing in girls sports.

This is a tough issue, but isn't the situation with your daughter an example of an athlete that should be competing against the gender to which he is transitioning? So in a way it's an example of why transgender people should participate with their chosen gender.

 

[pablow]

This is a tough issue, but isn't the situation with your daughter an example of an athlete that should be competing against the gender to which he is transitioning? So in a way it's an example of why transgender people should participate with their chosen gender.

Under the Act, there is no requirement that a person be "transitioning." Gender can be simply a state of mind.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Under the Act, there is no requirement that a person be "transitioning." Gender can be simply a state of mind.

So...so...stupid.

Remember "Airplane"? "What's wrong with him?" "Oh him? He thinks he's Ethel Murman." That was a comedy pointing our ludicrous stuff. That scene would be part of a Oscar winning drama today.

 

[gohawks50]

Under the Act, there is no requirement that a person be "transitioning." Gender can be simply a state of mind.

I'm simply stating that the situation @Capernum is describing would be resolved if the transitioning athlete was competing against his chosen gender.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I think you leave it to the doctors to establish gender. And if the hormonal levels of an intersex person (as in the case of the track star) reach a certain threshold then they should compete with the gender that corresponds with their hormone level. Intersex is a difficult and complicated issue, but there is science there and I am comfortable with letting the doctors make the call. Trans is a different issue in my mind.

So remove gender and replace with a division of horomonal-related type guidelines. At least it would be a plan.

 

[BioHawk]

Well, outside of hormones, testosterone and estrogen there are other physical inherent advantages that men have. For instance, the injury rate to the anterior cruciate ligament is significantly higher in female than in male athletes. There is also heart, lung, muscle and skeletal size that make a huge difference, chemistry aside.

All valid points.

 

[theIowaHawk]

The Act defines "gender."

(2) GENDER IDENTITY.—The term ‘gender identity’ means the gender-related identity, appearance, mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, regardless of the individual’s designated sex at birth.
​

Requiring a male that identifies as a female to go through hormone testing and treatment as a condition to compete as a female athlete is probably unlawful under this law.

Also, wouldn't Title IX require schools to offer athletic programs and scholarships for all genders?

Only if you believe it requires women sports and quotas.

 

[hawkedoff]

Just remember that a decent high school basketball player would shut Megan Gustafson down. She may get a few points but he would dominate. The physical difference is huge

 

[hawkeyekid]

Hopefully this leads to what I think would be ideal, which is no "men's" or "women's" sports. There's no reason for a boy's basketball team and a girl's basketball team. Just pick the 12 best basketball players in the school and have them be a team.

 

[Tom Paris]

Are they really dominating, though? If trans kids only crown champions a few times out of hundreds is that really domination?

They aren't in every competition, you know? Logically, they aren't going to lose often to girls. If my daughters were losing to biological boys in a girls competition I would be pissed.

 

[Tom Paris]

Hopefully this leads to what I think would be ideal, which is no "men's" or "women's" sports. There's no reason for a boy's basketball team and a girl's basketball team. Just pick the 12 best basketball players in the school and have them be a team.

Then girls won't be playing on sports teams very often.

 

[hawkland14]

Then girls won't be playing on sports teams very often.

I think this is what Huey and Iowa Hawk are advocating. Such "feminists" they are.

 

[hawkedoff]

Then girls won't be playing on sports teams very often.

And this illustrates the problem with identity politics. People can't get away from the narrative they have been sold. The female Gatorade player of the year in any sport would never touch a varsity field. Ever.

 

[Capernum]

This is a tough issue, but isn't the situation with your daughter an example of an athlete that should be competing against the gender to which he is transitioning? So in a way it's an example of why transgender people should participate with their chosen gender.

I agree with you, I was just stating a real world experience that got me thinking about this topic.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Hopefully this leads to what I think would be ideal, which is no "men's" or "women's" sports. There's no reason for a boy's basketball team and a girl's basketball team. Just pick the 12 best basketball players in the school and have them be a team.

Why would that be ideal?

 

[Capernum]

So remove gender and replace with a division of horomonal-related type guidelines. At least it would be a plan.

At least that would be a more scientific solution than hair length and clothing choice. Wtf defines “female” in this act that isn’t completely arbitrary? Is Clay Matthews female now because he has long hair? Or some Scottish Bagpipers because they wear a skirt?

 

[theIowaHawk]

They aren't in every competition, you know? Logically, they aren't going to lose often to girls. If my daughters were losing to biological boys in a girls competition I would be pissed.

Would you be pissed if they lost to bigger, faster, stronger girls?