40 minutes

[Mike Zierath]

In the case of a full school lockdown in my district we would have at least 5 people with full key access to any of our buildings within 15 minutes. More like 5 minutes for 6 of our 8 buildings.

And how long prior to that 15 minutes does it take to notify those 5 people with keys?

it’s chaos man, and every minute is too long! We don’t have all the answers. And as I stated, for all we know at this time, the worst thing they have done is not get out in front of the pure speculation of how the events transpired other than the very vague answers they have already given.

I, personally, feel like they are doing exactly why they should be doing. Working the timeline with ATF and the FBI and developing their report. Give them time. This world of immediate information doesn’t play in every situation.

my guess is there will be an admission of training opportunities and that we will find out that barricaded also means pinned down in that room to prevent him from just roaming the building and inflicting more harm than he had already done or was doing!

 

[BelemNole]

Have you ever squared off against somebody that is shooting a semi automatic rifle at you and your defense is a handgun? Yeah, me either! I’m sure it gives a person pause.

to question what they were doing while we don’t have all the information is incredibly newsy of you. EVERY major news outlet is asking the same thing. How shallow are we. Really?

this is a small town police force and and an outpost of border patrol agents. We don’t know what their training level is/was. We don’t know they weren’t trying to go in the back while a group of officers covered the front. We don’t know how many were in the building.

we do know that two were shot and wounded while exchanging gunfire with the suspect. We do know that they were evacuating ALL other kids and instructors that weren’t locked in that room with the gunman. We do know that there were parents losing their minds, rightfully so, out front that required attention and control.

The one thing that these two public service units haven’t done is get out in front of all the negative with a level of transparency that all these news outlets want. Is that good or bad? Obviously, in the OP’s opinion, they didn’t, and aren’t, doing enough.

Mike

Valid points.
What I don't expect them to do is taser parents who are upset that no one is going in after their kids.

 

[stout1]

You obviously don’t live in Texas! It has the highest percentage of law enforcement per capital that I’ve ever seen. Out tax dollars definitely go towards public safety and building football stadiums.

I don't and don't desire too. But it is apparent that Texas is misspending their public safety dollars.

 

[WhiteSoxClone]

it’s easy to second guess decisions now but I’m sure they were planning their attack to try and avoid more loss of life. Although 40 minutes is an awful long time.

It has been my understanding that since Columbine, police have been trained to engage immediately upon arrival in mass shooter scenarios. Maybe we can get a poster who is an LEO to confirm, but my recollection is that I've been told that several times. When someone is slaughtering people as quickly as they can find them, an organized military style assault shouldn't be a priority.

 

[Mike Zierath]

It's like Scot Peterson, that school cop at the Parkland mass shooting in Florida where 17 kids were killed who hid out front instead of going in to confront the killers.

https://apnews.com/article/shooting...ool-shooting-bb5c5fe81cecb63886bd325b53b2e597

And yeah, I do expect the armed, trained cops to immediately engage and draw fire away from the children, even if they are "outgunned." That's exactly what they exist for.

Expectation and reality are sometimes two separate things!

there has been NO REPORT of anyone doing a Parkland type thing. At some point, the timeline will come out.

 

[Mike Zierath]

I don't and don't desire too. But it is apparent that Texas is misspending their public safety dollars.

How so?

 

[tumorboy]

Expectation and reality are sometimes two separate things!

there has been NO REPORT of anyone doing a Parkland type thing. At some point, the timeline will come out.

I think some people probably upjected to the praise in the presser. But right now people are pissed. And want something/anything to blame.

 

[stout1]

And how long prior to that 15 minutes does it take to notify those 5 people with keys?

Almost no time at all. When they hit the lockdown button it notifies central office, the 911 center and our SRO via phone, email and app. We have trained in that scenario about who goes where, who is the point person and who has keys. We have rally points at each building and a process manual what happens when we get there.

I'm not saying we are unlocking the building in 5-15 minutes, but it won't take 40 minutes to find a key.

 

[stout1]

How so?

For starters, this police department (with a large SWAT team) doesn't seem prepared to respond to an active shooter situation in a school. We train with our local PD every year in every building on the basic framework of a response. These folks don't appear to be ready for that.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I can’t believe parents were able to be kept out. Being Texas I assume they all had their own guns.

They probably do, but we're not able to take them on campus. I have a CHL, but have never once carried anywhere near my son's school. Shooters know that schools are easy targets.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

They probably do, but we're not able to take them on campus. I have a CHL, but have never once carried anywhere near my son's school. Shooters know that schools are easy targets.

I’m talking about during those 40 minutes. It would have been hard to keep me out of that place if my kid was in there and I had a gun.

 

[hawkifann]

I saw a report today that the two school officers were among the first shot and that most of the carnage happened in just a few minutes (not surprising with that kind of weaponry). I say that not to defend the PD, as it still seems bizarre that it was so much time to pass when there had clearly been shooting inside. Need to get in there ASAP and start trying to isolate the threat and save people.

 

[ThorneStockton]

It's conceivable to me that most of the carnage occurred in just the first several minutes. If there's no more active shooting going on, it's reasonable to me that they may take their time to develop a solid plan to avoid walking into a ambush/trap.

That said, if you're still hearing the sound of rapid fire while standing outside mulling over a plan, that's uhhhh not a good look.

 

[ThorneStockton]

Almost no time at all. When they hit the lockdown button it notifies central office, the 911 center and our SRO via phone, email and app. We have trained in that scenario about who goes where, who is the point person and who has keys. We have rally points at each building and a process manual what happens when we get there.

I'm not saying we are unlocking the building in 5-15 minutes, but it won't take 40 minutes to find a key.

That seems like some decent resources have gone into developing a good plan. I wonder if other countries have developed something similar for their schools?

If not, once the rest of the world starts watching our movies and playing our videogames, they'll be way behind in knowing how to react to school shootings.

 

[HawkNester]

What the **** were the cops doing?

They were too busy pinning down parents who wanted to go in and save their children or getting their own kids out before responding.

 

[millah_22]

Apparently there are reports that cops did go inside….. to get their own kids out.

 

[FlickShagwell]

We don’t know what their training level is/was.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that their level of training was such that they received badges and guns and a mandate to protect and serve. Is that unfair on my part?

If you aren't willing to get in front of a bullet headed for a third grader's face at a second's notice, maybe don't be a cop.

 

[FlickShagwell]

And yeah, I do expect the armed, trained cops to immediately engage and draw fire away from the children, even if they are "outgunned." That's exactly what they exist for.

This x 💯.

 

[stout1]

That seems like some decent resources have gone into developing a good plan. I wonder if other countries have developed something similar for their schools?

If not, once the rest of the world starts watching our movies and playing our videogames, they'll be way behind in knowing how to react to school shootings.

And when they become more secular it will get real.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

It's conceivable to me that most of the carnage occurred in just the first several minutes. If there's no more active shooting going on, it's reasonable to me that they may take their time to develop a solid plan to avoid walking into a ambush/trap.

That said, if you're still hearing the sound of rapid fire while standing outside mulling over a plan, that's uhhhh not a good look.

If they're hearing gunfire and NOT smashing through the door...I can't fathom that thought process. Every police dept in the country has these...

If you're busting down the door, maybe he's shooting at you rather than 10 year olds.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

Seems to me a SWAT team should show up READY to engage.

Something along the lines of assemble, this is what we know, what we don't know, then immediately proceed according to contingency based training.

Don't know what happened, but if they're waiting for plays to be called in not in their "two minute offense" they literally need to quit posing (a la the pic above).

 

[SSG T]

I'm not reading through the whole thread because there are probably insane excuses for why the police didn't do anything. I'd just ask, why have we allowed them to be militarized, why have we "trained" them what to do in these situations, why do many of the have "To serve and protect" on the sides of their cars if they aren't going to respond.

Ran across the first tweet today, which lead to the second. These were 2 Marines, 20 and 22, who barely knew each other and one was days from going home, one had a wife and child. They died protecting a bunch of people they didn't know, which is what they signed on and trained to do. Why didn't the police protect those they didn't know when that is exactly what they signed on to do and were trained to do?

 

[bhawk24bob]

Threatening to taser parents who were willing to go inside and do something.

View embedded media

Well that just ruined my day

 

[McLovin32]

More and more, our police act like a military organization, but when a situation arises in which a military approach is necessary, they suddenly act like police again. Sorry cops, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t approach every unusual traffic stop like you just pulled over an ISIS sleeper, then get a pass when an armed gunman is in a school. No. Either step in front of the bullets or give back the vests.

I think this is one of the first times I've ever agreed with you on here. Very solid post.

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

More and more, our police act like a military organization, but when a situation arises in which a military approach is necessary, they suddenly act like police again. Sorry cops, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t approach every unusual traffic stop like you just pulled over an ISIS sleeper, then get a pass when an armed gunman is in a school. No. Either step in front of the bullets or give back the vests.

Wonderful ignorance and generalization.

 

[sober_teacher]

It has been my understanding that since Columbine, police have been trained to engage immediately upon arrival in mass shooter scenarios. Maybe we can get a poster who is an LEO to confirm, but my recollection is that I've been told that several times. When someone is slaughtering people as quickly as they can find them, an organized military style assault shouldn't be a priority.

The primary objection I have to not immediately going in is the need for basic information. Any ideas on where/how many shooters there are, is backup available, etc. I’d be worried about friendly fire, and the absolute tragedy of accidentally shooting a kid who didn’t get to safety and got caught in the wrong place, wrong time.

Otherwise yeah, as soon as there are enough cops to secure the perimeter, move in.

 

[TC Nole OX]

Threatening to taser parents who were willing to go inside and do something.

View embedded media

BAU

 

[HawkMachine]

Valid points.
What I don't expect them to do is taser parents who are upset that no one is going in after their kids.

Tasering him may have saved his life.

Do firefighters let someone run into a burning house?

 

[NCHawk5]

Wonderful ignorance and generalization.

Here with a premeditated agenda and opinion. Him and the rest of the sorority are going to push whatever evidence they can find to support that agenda/opinion.

They’ll dismiss any rebuttals as racists or incels. They will like each other’s hate-filled posts based on emotional rhetoric from the far left. They do this daily about everything. Truly as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning.

 

[JMNSHO]

Increasingly in this country we have an over-abundance of planning and a lack of preparation. We have plenty of qualified people, but many are not truly capable, not enough of the capable people are qualified. Everything looks good on paper and over a zoom webinar—in practice, not so much. Cops, doctors, nurses, etc etc. This whole goddamn country is a fast food tomato—checks the box but fails at the role.

 

[BelemNole]

Tasering him may have saved his life.

Do firefighters let someone run into a burning house?

Either go in or get out of the way. Standing around with your long guns tasering parents is not the answer.

 

[HawkMachine]

My first cousin was in the special forces, one of his side gigs now is that he is an ALICE instructor.

I hardly see him anymore unfortunately but I'd love to hear his opinion on things.

 

[Mike Zierath]

I think some people probably upjected to the praise in the presser. But right now people are pissed. And want something/anything to blame.

I get it….

And law enforcement continues to be vague

 

[Mike Zierath]

For starters, this police department (with a large SWAT team) doesn't seem prepared to respond to an active shooter situation in a school. We train with our local PD every year in every building on the basic framework of a response. These folks don't appear to be ready for that.

I tend to agree. And after the most recent presser, I have to wonder why they aren’t getting ahead of all the questions that are being asked.

 

[Mike Zierath]

I’m talking about during those 40 minutes. It would have been hard to keep me out of that place if my kid was in there and I had a gun.

No, it really wouldn’t be. You just make yourself a target at that point….so, brave of you, but when the cop shots and kills you because you are a perceived threat, what’s the point?

 

[FAUlty Gator]

No, it really wouldn’t be. You just make yourself a target at that point….so, brave of you, but when the cop shots and kills you because you are a perceived threat, what’s the point?

Bravery would have nothing to do with it. I’d be insane and completely out of control. They’d have to taze me if my kids were in there.

 

[QChawks]

this school doesn’t have any security cameras?

 

[Mike Zierath]

I saw a report today that the two school officers were among the first shot and that most of the carnage happened in just a few minutes (not surprising with that kind of weaponry). I say that not to defend the PD, as it still seems bizarre that it was so much time to pass when there had clearly been shooting inside. Need to get in there ASAP and start trying to isolate the threat and save people.

This is what I’m hearing g as well, and if there was an immediate few minutes of shooting g, and then nothing….likely because he ran out of ammo, why didn’t they go in?

however, depending on the particular area he was in, there may have been limited access to the classroom door, making it hard to make that push to neutralize the suspect

 

[Mike Zierath]

Bravery would have nothing to do with it. I’d be insane and completely out of control. They’d have to taze me if my kids were in there.

If you had a gun, they would shoot you due to the reason I already stated…..would view you as a threat, and potentially, the suspect.

 

[BEAVERDALEHAWK]

Have you ever squared off against somebody that is shooting a semi automatic rifle at you and your defense is a handgun? Yeah, me either! I’m sure it gives a person pause.

to question what they were doing while we don’t have all the information is incredibly newsy of you. EVERY major news outlet is asking the same thing. How shallow are we. Really?

this is a small town police force and and an outpost of border patrol agents. We don’t know what their training level is/was. We don’t know they weren’t trying to go in the back while a group of officers covered the front. We don’t know how many were in the building.

we do know that two were shot and wounded while exchanging gunfire with the suspect. We do know that they were evacuating ALL other kids and instructors that weren’t locked in that room with the gunman. We do know that there were parents losing their minds, rightfully so, out front that required attention and control.

The one thing that these two public service units haven’t done is get out in front of all the negative with a level of transparency that all these news outlets want. Is that good or bad? Obviously, in the OP’s opinion, they didn’t, and aren’t, doing enough.

Mike

Great post, Mike.