A couple of coach Fry questions

Franisdaman

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It was replaced by "we do what we do".

We've been fortunate to have 2 terrific coaches over the last 40+ years. But make no mistake, Hayden would beat Kirk 7 out of 10.

7 out of 10 times? Wow.

Just a reality check for those who may have forgotten:

Hayden lost 2 games for every 3 games he won. Imagine the outrage if Twitter and Hawkeye Report had existed back then!!

Kirk's record is similar to Hayden's. Kirk, too, has lost 2 games for every 3 games that he's won.
 

HawkIDrummer

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7 out of 10 times? Wow.

Just a reality check for those who may have forgotten:

Hayden lost 2 games for every 3 games he won. Imagine the outrage if Twitter and Hawkeye Report had existed back then!!

Kirk's record is similar to Hayden's. Kirk, too, has lost 2 games for every 3 games that he's won.
Their career winning %s at Iowa are very similar. That's not the point. It's who would out coach whom on the sidelines.
What's your opinion? It's just beer talk, but if they were to meet hypothetically with similar levels of talent on their squad who would win the most head-to-head?
 

kceasthawk

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Their career winning %s at Iowa are very similar. That's not the point. It's who would out coach whom on the sidelines.
What's your opinion? It's just beer talk, but if they were to meet hypothetically with similar levels of talent on their squad who would win the most head-to-head?
Tough to call. The heart might tell you to go with coach Fry, but make no mistake the BIG is much tougher now top to bottom then it was in the 80's and 90's. Frankly even OSU is better now then they were then. I'm not sure people realize that when considering the job KF has done in winning 8 or 9 games every year. Also when you say both lost 2 games for every 3 they won I think some context. It certainly seemed that Frys last few years were heading in a downward trajectory both in record and certainly in recruiting. Meanwhile KF (who has now coached 3 years longer then Fry) and his trajectory appears to be heading up if anything both in record and most certainly in recruiting. In short I'd say the job KF has done coaching this team in all perspectives is being undersold, so I'll go with him in a close defensive win, obviously, LOL.....
 
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HawkIDrummer

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Tough to call. The heart might tell you to go with coach Fry, but make no mistake the BIG is much tougher now top to bottom then it was in the 80's and 90's. Frankly even OSU is better now then they were then. I'm not sure people realize that when considering the job KF has done in winning 8 or 9 games every year. Also when you say both lost 2 games for every 3 they won I think some context. It certainly seemed that Frys last few years were heading in a downward trajectory both in record and certainly in recruiting. Meanwhile KF (who has now coached 3 years longer then Fry) and his trajectory appears to be heading up if anything both in record and most certainly in recruiting. In short I'd say the job KF has done coaching this team in all perspectives is being undersold, so I'll go with him in a close defensive win, obviously, LOL.....
Fair enough, but again you're talking about records, how tough their competition was etc...looking at their career win/loss trajectory. This isn't "who's career was better?". Both have done well for IOWA, we've been fortunate to have 'em.

My question is strictly about game day coaching. KFz's defense-dependent method has been very effective, but we've also seen other coaches simply out coach him strategically and use his predictability against him. (see Purdue).

The reason I postulate advantage Hayden is because he would/could/did shift based on the opponent and "scratch where it itches". I think that would enable him to beat KFz more than 50% of the time.
 
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bdg8

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7 out of 10 times? Wow.

Just a reality check for those who may have forgotten:

Hayden lost 2 games for every 3 games he won. Imagine the outrage if Twitter and Hawkeye Report had existed back then!!

Kirk's record is similar to Hayden's. Kirk, too, has lost 2 games for every 3 games that he's won.
Hayden played
7 out of 10 times? Wow.

Just a reality check for those who may have forgotten:

Hayden lost 2 games for every 3 games he won. Imagine the outrage if Twitter and Hawkeye Report had existed back then!!

Kirk's record is similar to Hayden's. Kirk, too, has lost 2 games for every 3 games that he's won.
Hayden played a more challenging non conference, so I would still take his .600 over Kirk’s
 

kceasthawk

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FWIW….

From 1979-98 there were 3.5 teams in the Big 10 with a plus .500 winning %. Obviously Ohio State & Michigan. With Penn State being a generous .5 because I think they didn’t join the Big Ten until 1994 ?! Iowa was then at 28th. The next big 10 team was 58th Wisconsin @ .48 winning percentage.

From 1999 until the present there are 8.5 Big 10 teams with winning records over that time frame. The .5 is Nebraska who we have played I think at least 11 possibly, 12 times. Iowa is at 29th Michigan State behind them at 30th, Minnesota is56th @.522 and Northwestern 62nd @.517.

Some of the Hayden was way better than Kirk crowd don’t like to hear this but the Big10 is demonstratively better now than it was back then.

And as an aside before someone tries to say the OOC was way better… There were a ton of piss poor Kent states & Northern Illinois and Drakes & UTEPs & Cincinnati’s, built in there etc. etc.

Also…we all remember the UCLAs and the Nebraska’s & the Penn states early on in the 80s but there was also the Oregon’s, Colorado’s, Miami Florida’s, Tenn, NC St’s hell we lost a game 3 to 5 Arixona who finsed 5-6. People just don’t look at things very fairly when they try to compare these two men.
Thanks for putting some context into the discussion CM. As you and I have both said here repeatedly the fact that folks liked Hayden so much because of how he lifted Iowa from "the dark ages" and that fact he was more charismatic then Kirk clouds them from looking at the facts relative to what the BIG was then and is now. There's no comparison and winning now against "the other schools" in the conference is way more difficult then it was in the 80's and 90's....
 
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kceasthawk

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Hayden played

Hayden played a more challenging non conference, so I would still take his .600 over Kirk’s
Early on, but not really later, and he played against a much weaker conference then KF is. Go back through CMhawk99's post. Its all there factually. There's no denying the league is tougher now. For my money OSU is way better now even on a talent basis then they were then.
 
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kceasthawk

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Fair enough, but again you're talking about records, how tough their competition was etc...looking at their career win/loss trajectory. This isn't "who's career was better?". Both have done well for IOWA, we've been fortunate to have 'em.

My question is strictly about game day coaching. KFz's defense-dependent method has been very effective, but we've also seen other coaches simply out coach him strategically and use his predictability against him. (see Purdue).

The reason I postulate advantage Hayden is because he would/could/did shift based on the opponent and "scratch where it itches". I think that would enable him to beat KFz more than 50% of the time.
I guess, BUT my issue is my that recruiting is (as we've seen) a big part of winning football now. Its the Jimmies and the Joes, more then the x's and the o's that win. In my mind KF has done a better job especially lately lifting Iowa's recruiting but you want to give coach Fry his players to beat him with. In the same context part of our issue beating teams like Purdue is again they have that "Jimmie" that we simply can't deal with....
 

HawkIDrummer

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Early on, but not really later, and he played against a much weaker conference then KF is. Go back through CMhawk99's post. Its all there factually. There's no denying the league is tougher now. For my money OSU is way better now even on a talent basis then they were then.
The B1G is certainly more balanced now.

KFz has most definitely had the benefit of more easy non-cons. 1 extra per season since 2006
 

kceasthawk

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The B1G is certainly more balanced now.

KFz has most definitely had the benefit of more easy non-cons. 1 extra per season since 2006
Seriously? Not recently. As we've all noted the league is better now AND we play one more conference game now. Add to that ISU is WAY, WAY, better now then they were for most of HF's time piss pounding the Clones. Yes Fry played tougher non cons when he first got to Iowa, (when he was playing a schedule which was mostly drawn up BEFORE he got to Iowa). He then loosened the non con up quite a bit himself. Ask Bill snyder. He did the same thing when he got to KSU and backed the non con down once he could to start getting some early wins. He used Fry's formula in almost everything he did when he got to KSU.
 

HawkIDrummer

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Seriously? Not recently. As we've all noted the league is better now AND we play one more conference game now. Add to that ISU is WAY, WAY, better now then they were for most of HF's time piss pounding the Clones. Yes Fry played tougher non cons when he first got to Iowa, (when he was playing a schedule which was mostly drawn up BEFORE he got to Iowa). He then loosened the non con up quite a bit himself. Ask Bill snyder. He did the same thing when he got to KSU and backed the non con down once he could to start getting some early wins. He used Fry's formula in almost everything he did when he got to KSU.
Yes and No. ISU had some good years and bad years against Hayden, but yes they're a better program now. Either way Hayden bitch-stomped them...KFz has lost to inferior ISU teams on multiple occassions. Also, keep in mind ISU had the more successful program when Hayden came to Iowa City. He flipped that.

Snyder used Hayden's formula for sure....but it wasn't simply loading up on creampuffs. He always wanted one non-con to be a challenging opponent. Not unlike what we have today. Occasionally we get a team like Pitt.

With regard to scheduling, the B1G only recently went to a 9 game conf slate. KFz had the benefit of that 4th non-con patsy to pad his win stats for a good chunk of his run.

Anyway...Thanks for the banter. It's refreshing to just rif with someone without them turning into an a-hole rather than just offering a counter-point.
 

kceasthawk

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Yes and No. ISU had some good years and bad years against Hayden, but yes they're a better program now. Either way Hayden bitch-stomped them...KFz has lost to inferior ISU teams on multiple occassions. Also, keep in mind ISU had the more successful program when Hayden came to Iowa City. He flipped that.

Snyder used Hayden's formula for sure....but it wasn't simply loading up on creampuffs. He always wanted one non-con to be a challenging opponent. Not unlike what we have today. Occasionally we get a team like Pitt.

With regard to scheduling, the B1G only recently went to a 9 game conf slate. KFz had the benefit of that 4th non-con patsy to pad his win stats for a good chunk of his run.
All good conversation Drummer. I would question whether Fry "flipped ISU" as you said or it was simply Earle Bruce leaving and they went years with a bunch of dumb asses before hiring Fry protege D Mac. I have no qualms about the reverence for coach Fry. Just think because KF is here now its MUCH easier for fans in the internet era to speak openly about his shortcomings, and I think this dilutes the narrative....
 
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cmhawks99

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Fair enough, but again you're talking about records, how tough their competition was etc...looking at their career win/loss trajectory. This isn't "who's career was better?". Both have done well for IOWA, we've been fortunate to have 'em.

My question is strictly about game day coaching. KFz's defense-dependent method has been very effective, but we've also seen other coaches simply out coach him strategically and use his predictability against him. (see Purdue).

The reason I postulate advantage Hayden is because he would/could/did shift based on the opponent and "scratch where it itches". I think that would enable him to beat KFz more than 50% of the time.

I should throw in there I’ve never found you to be a particularly negative or over the top poster.

So I’m certainly not picking on you but when you’re talking about a guy that scored 14 points or less 70 times in his career and we’ve already admitted he didn’t do near as well vs big-time competition…

With that info in tow, It’s super hard for me to understand how you could naturally awesome he is a better game day coach?!

Lets just start with Ohio State…Hayden was very rarely very competitive with Ohio State & KF pretty much always has been. Hayden Also beat some good Michigan teams, but it was still a rarity. I believe KF has a winning record versus Michigan.

I think my whole overarching point is because of nostalgia and the growth of a legend people have a tendency to naturally assume Hayden was better… Hell I don’t even know what they think he’s better at my guess is everything… But the facts and stats don’t even come close to backing that up.
 
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HawkIDrummer

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I should throw in there I’ve never found you to be a particularly negative or over the top poster.

So I’m certainly not picking on you but when you’re talking about a guy that scored 14 points or less 70 times in his career and we’ve already admitted he didn’t do near as well vs big-time competition…

With that info in tow, It’s super hard for me to understand how you could naturally awesome he is a better game day coach?!

Lets just start with Ohio State…Hayden was very rarely very competitive with Ohio State & KF pretty much always has been. Hayden Also beat some good Michigan teams, but it was still a rarity. I believe KF has a winning record versus Michigan.

I think my whole overarching point is because of nostalgia and the growth of a legend people have a tendency to naturally assume Hayden was better… Hell I don’t even know what they think he’s better at my guess is everything… But the facts and stats don’t even come close to backing that up.
I get what you're saying, and of course we're comparing different eras. I'm aware that people tend to remember things the way they want to...and try to check myself on it. There's also the "if you weren't there you may not understand" angle. Hayden had a little extra something (his psychology) that clearly made a difference...it was palpable in his players, the fan base and how outsiders viewed the progream. He was the right guy at the right time. KFz is probably the right guy for this time (despite his aversion to offensive production).

I think my general point is that Hayden was willing to take risks and play aggressively. That would seem to be the biggest difference between he and KFz...for better or for worse. I think we'd all agree that KFz's conservative nature has been pretty frustrating over the years. That said, he's won his share of games...so maybe winning ugly ain't so bad. Not as fun, but still winning.

I see Hayden as a better poker player, which is why I think he'd get the best of KFz more than 50% of the time. Anyway...beats the hell out of the debates they must have on CyClown Fanatic, eh? ;)
 
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Franisdaman

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Their career winning %s at Iowa are very similar. That's not the point. It's who would out coach whom on the sidelines.
What's your opinion? It's just beer talk, but if they were to meet hypothetically with similar levels of talent on their squad who would win the most head-to-head?

I think it would be 5-5 and each of KF's 5 wins would come with tears as be beats his former boss