A Facebook crazy in my friends list...

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
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Argue with this twat, not me:

“Vaccines are different than drugs.” - Joes Place
They ARE different.

Drugs RARELY are used for a single dose (or very small numbers of doses)

This means the MARKETS for drugs, which are used far more frequently, are MUCH more lucrative to drug manufacturers than vaccines.

This is pretty much common knowledge to anyone. Except you, apparently.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
Argue with this twat, not me:

“Vaccines are different than drugs.” - Joes Place

Vaccines are classically administered to prevent the appearance of a medical problem, while drugs are generally administered to treat a medical problem.

#DIFFERENT
 
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seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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It's "vaccine pricing", not "drug pricing". - Joes Place

Vaccines are different than drugs. - Joes Place

Sure, they're a TYPE of drug. - Joes Place



Keep going, this is entertaining.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
It's "vaccine pricing", not "drug pricing". - Joes Place

Vaccines are different than drugs. - Joes Place

Sure, they're a TYPE of drug. - Joes Place



Keep going, this is entertaining.

As noted for you, they ARE different.
They PREVENT disease, rather than typically TREATING disease.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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As noted for you, they ARE different.
They PREVENT disease, rather than typically TREATING disease.
You've already acknowledged that vaccines are a subset of drugs, go back to arguing drug pricing with the Phizer CFO.
I'm confident you know more about drug pricing and profits than he does.
Don't hold back.
 
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Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
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You've already acknowledged that vaccines are a subset of drugs

That is very very different from what we commonly use drugs for and how we use them.
So, if semantics is your thing here, go crazy.

The discussion was about vaccines being FAR less profitable for companies than drugs are. Which is 100% fact.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
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"MI4A estimates global 2019 market value for vaccines to be approximately $33 billion, representing about 2% of the overall pharmaceutical market. "

Wow....2% of pharma markets.

YUGE!!! 👀
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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That is very very different from what we commonly use drugs for and how we use them.
So, if semantics is your thing here, go crazy.
You started the semantics argument claiming vaccines weren’t drugs.
You won/lost that battle with yourself.
I just provided the definitions from the dictionary and the NIH, you provided the comedy.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
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You started the semantics argument claiming vaccines weren’t drugs.
And they -generally speaking- are NOT considered drugs, because of the normal way "drugs" are used to treat existing diseases.

You continue to Gish Gallop into this, when the entire point has been that vaccines are NOT "profit machines" for pharmaceutical companies.

Go look up those numbers for yourself; I do not care what some random out of context quote from some random pharma CEO said. It's not the case.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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And they -generally speaking- are NOT considered drugs, because of the normal way "drugs" are used to treat existing diseases.

You continue to Gish Gallop into this, when the entire point has been that vaccines are NOT "profit machines" for pharmaceutical companies.

Go look up those numbers for yourself; I do not care what some random out of context quote from some random pharma CEO said. It's not the case.
Do you know what the F in CFO stands for?

Do you think Phizer is some 'random' company in the discussion vaccine prices?

The Chief FINANCIAL Officer of Phizer is telling his company's stockholders that right now they using 'pandemic pricing', but that the company expects to be able to increase prices from $19.50 per dose to what they "typically get for a vaccine—$150, $175 per dose.”

Quick, call CNN and tell them you know the financials of Phizer better than CFO, and he's completely wrong about what they can charge for the drugs they sell.

You're so entertaining.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
Do you know what the F in CFO stands for?
Do you know what actual Financials mean?

2% of total pharma revenues are vaccines.
Practically rounding errors, compared with their normal drug sales.

Again- Do Not Care what some rando exec was quoted saying, because you have no idea what the context is here. But it's very easy for you to look up what their annual revenues from vaccines vs regular drug sales. You won't do that, because it undermines your argument.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
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113
Do you know what the F in CFO stands for?

In fact, vaccines were so unprofitable that some companies stopped making them altogether. In 1967, there were 26 vaccine manufactures. That number dropped to 17 by 1980. Ten years ago, the financial incentives to produce vaccines were so weak that there was growing concern that pharmaceutical companies were abandoning the vaccine business for selling more-profitable daily drug treatments. Compared with drugs that require daily doses, vaccines are only administered once a year or a lifetime. The pharmaceutical company Wyeth (which has since been acquired by Pfizer) reported that they stopped making the flu vaccine because the margins were so low.
“Historically vaccines were produced at a relatively low price and sold with a low profit margin. They were add-ons to other products—mostly drugs—that pharmaceutical manufacturers were producing," explains Neal Halsey, professor of pediatric infectious diseases and international health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. "The people working in vaccines described themselves as the stepchild of others, and they had to fight hard for the resources to develop new vaccines.”

 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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Do you know what actual Financials mean?

2% of total pharma revenues are vaccines.

Talking about Phizer.

link

The COVID vaccine is set to make up more than half of Pfizer’s 2021 revenue​


Pfizer is anticipating $26 billion in COVID vaccine sales this year. To put that in perspective: In 2020, all of Pfizer’s revenues added up to $41.9 billion. That means the $26 billion figure for a single product would surpass 60% of the firm’s total sales last year.


link

Pfizer expects to make nearly as much revenue just from COVID-19 vaccines in 2021 as it earned in all of 2020​

Pfizer expects to make nearly as much revenue just from COVID-19 vaccine sales alone in 2021 as it earned in all of 2020, the drugmaker said on Tuesday.

The company said it expects revenue from the vaccines to be $36 billion by the end of 2021, up from an estimated $33.5 billion the company had predicted earlier in the year.

In 2020, it brought in $41.9 billion in revenue.




Practically rounding errors, compared with their normal drug sales.

Again- Do Not Care what some rando exec was quoted saying, because you have no idea what the context is here. But it's very easy for you to look up what their annual revenues from vaccines vs regular drug sales. You won't do that, because it undermines your argument.
My argument is that pharma companies can charge more for patented drugs.
Would you argue otherwise?
If the vaccine share of the drug market was 1% or 99% it wouldn't change that fact.

But I'm due another laugh, so give it a shot.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
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And the Covid vaccine is still a small fraction of Pfizer's profits.
I can't wait to see your definition of 'small fraction'

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/02/business/pfizer-earnings/index.html
New York (CNN Business) Pfizer reported that earnings and sales more than doubled in the past quarter, and it raised its outlook for results the full year, thanks greatly to its Covid-19 vaccine.
The company reported adjusted earnings of $7.7 billion, up 133% from a year earlier. Revenue soared to $24.1 billion, up 134%. Both easily cleared results forecast by analysts.
The vaccine business alone was responsible for more than 60% of the company's sales, as vaccine revenue rose to $14.6 billion from only $1.7 billion a year earlier. The company said its Covid vaccine sales accounted for $13 billion of that revenue. Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.
This year, the Covid vaccine has brought in revenue of $24.3 billion. And Pfizer said it expects a total of $36 billion from the vaccine for all of 2021 -- nearly $12 billion more in revenue the final quarter of the year. And it said based on contracts it now has signed it expects revenue $29 billion from the Covid vaccine in 2022.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I can't wait to see your definition of 'small fraction'

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/02/business/pfizer-earnings/index.html
New York (CNN Business) Pfizer reported that earnings and sales more than doubled in the past quarter, and it raised its outlook for results the full year, thanks greatly to its Covid-19 vaccine.
The company reported adjusted earnings of $7.7 billion, up 133% from a year earlier. Revenue soared to $24.1 billion, up 134%. Both easily cleared results forecast by analysts.
The vaccine business alone was responsible for more than 60% of the company's sales, as vaccine revenue rose to $14.6 billion from only $1.7 billion a year earlier. The company said its Covid vaccine sales accounted for $13 billion of that revenue. Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.
This year, the Covid vaccine has brought in revenue of $24.3 billion. And Pfizer said it expects a total of $36 billion from the vaccine for all of 2021 -- nearly $12 billion more in revenue the final quarter of the year. And it said based on contracts it now has signed it expects revenue $29 billion from the Covid vaccine in 2022.

Now, show us the profits numbers, because the vaccine revenues look really big, but the actual profits are much less.

Margins on drugs are 5x, 10x kinds of returns.
Margins on the vaccines are about 30%.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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Now, show us the profits numbers, because the vaccine revenues look really big, but the actual profits are much less.

Margins on drugs are 5x, 10x kinds of returns.
Margins on the vaccines are about 30%.
I love how you catch brick after brick in the face being wrong and come back for more.

Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Given that fact (I gave you the link and quoted it on this page), what do you think explains the 133% increase in revenue and 134% increase in profits?
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I love how you catch brick after brick in the face being wrong and come back for more.

Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Given that fact (I gave you the link and quoted it on this page), what do you think explains the 133% increase in revenue and 134% increase in profits?

Dude: YOU started this by claiming "pandemic rates" on vaccines of $150-200

Which is UTTERLY FALSE

Pfizer gets <$20 per dose. Period.
That they are making lots of REVENUE is due to huge DEMAND for those doses. But they are NOT LARGE MARGIN sales. Not remotely close to the margins on "blockbuster drugs".

I know you want that to not be the case, but IT IS THE CASE.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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Dude: YOU started this by claiming "pandemic rates" on vaccines of $150-200

Which is UTTERLY FALSE

Pfizer gets <$20 per dose. Period.
That they are making lots of REVENUE is due to huge DEMAND for those doses. But they are NOT LARGE MARGIN sales. Not remotely close to the margins on "blockbuster drugs".

I know you want that to not be the case, but IT IS THE CASE.
Answer my question, and then I'll address your mischaracterization and misattribution.


Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Given that fact (I gave you the link and quoted it on this page), what do you think explains the 133% increase in revenue and 134% increase in profits?
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
Answer my question, and then I'll address your mischaracterization and misattribution.


Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Do you understand the difference between "revenues" and "profits"?

If my margin on a vaccine is "10%", then I can double or triple "revenues", but my profits don't increase all that much.

If my margin on a blockbuster drug is 200%, then even a 10-20% increase in sales results in a bigger bottom line.

Again: YOU claimed "pandemic pricing" of $200 a dose, when it is literally 1/10th of that. Vaccines are generating LOTS of revenue; they are NOT a major profit driver.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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113
Do you understand the difference between "revenues" and "profits"?
I do, I'm trying to figure out if you do. Where did the profits come from?
Answer the question (the one you deliberately edited out of your response, you gormless worm).

Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Given that fact (I gave you the link and quoted it on this page), what do you think explains the 133% increase in revenue and 134% increase in profits?
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I do, I'm trying to figure out if you do. Where did the profits come from?
Answer the question (the one you deliberately edited out of your response, you gormless worm).

Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Again: you don't seem to understand revenues vs profits.

Companies LIKE to drive the "high margin" stuff, not the "low margin stuff".
And vaccines - including Covid vaccines - are LOW MARGIN.

Let's return to your original point: "Pandemic Pricing"

Pfizer is making about $19 per dose.
Not "$150"
Not "$200"

$20 a dose for that vaccine is a fricking BARGAIN.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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You've abandoned your claims on "pandemic pricing" completely, haven't you?
No, I said I would address your mischaracterization and misattribution after you answered my question.
You keep ducking the question:

Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.

Given that fact (I gave you the link and quoted it on this page), what do you think explains the 133% increase in revenue and 134% increase in profits?
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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Yes.
You have.
Pfizer is getting <$20 a dose.
Nothing remotely close to your "CFO claim".
I have a math problem and I need your help.
Joes Place wants to know about vaccine profits at Phizer.
We have the numbers, so let’s help him discover it together.

The company reported adjusted earnings of $7.7 billion, up 133% from a year earlier.

That means last year profits were $3.3 billion and this year they increased by $4.4 billion.

What drove those profits?

Revenue soared to $24.1 billion, up 134%.
The vaccine business alone was responsible for more than 60% of the company's sales, as vaccine revenue rose to $14.6 billion from only $1.7 billion a year earlier. The company said its Covid vaccine sales accounted for $13 billion of that revenue. Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.


A 134% increase to 24.1 billion means the previous value was 10.3 billion.
The non-Covid vaccine business rose 7%.
7% of $10.3 billion is $721 million in revenue.

So, where do we tell Joes Place those $4.4 billion in profits came from since the non-Covid side of the business only increased by $.7 billion dollars in revenue?

Think he can type the answer with this additional information?
I don't think he can.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I’m trying to help this guy understand something:


Can you tell Joes Place where those $4.4 billion in profits came from since the non-Covid side of the business only increased by $.7 billion dollars in revenue?

LOLWUT?

You STILL do not understand "gross margins".
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I can't wait to see your definition of 'small fraction'

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/02/business/pfizer-earnings/index.html
New York (CNN Business) Pfizer reported that earnings and sales more than doubled in the past quarter, and it raised its outlook for results the full year, thanks greatly to its Covid-19 vaccine.
The company reported adjusted earnings of $7.7 billion, up 133% from a year earlier. Revenue soared to $24.1 billion, up 134%. Both easily cleared results forecast by analysts.
The vaccine business alone was responsible for more than 60% of the company's sales, as vaccine revenue rose to $14.6 billion from only $1.7 billion a year earlier. The company said its Covid vaccine sales accounted for $13 billion of that revenue. Revenue outside of its Covid vaccine business was up a far more modest 7%.
This year, the Covid vaccine has brought in revenue of $24.3 billion. And Pfizer said it expects a total of $36 billion from the vaccine for all of 2021 -- nearly $12 billion more in revenue the final quarter of the year. And it said based on contracts it now has signed it expects revenue $29 billion from the Covid vaccine in 2022.

You seem to continually confuse "quarterly" numbers with total year numbers, too....
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
107,859
113
I’m trying to help this guy understand something:


Can you tell Joes Place where those $4.4 billion in profits came from since the non-Covid side of the business only increased by $.7 billion dollars in revenue?
Again: you're mixing annual profits with quarterly numbers.

They've sold LOTS of vaccine - yep. The MARGINS on the vaccines sold are NOT ANYWHERE NEAR their drug profits.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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Again: you're mixing annual profits with quarterly numbers.
Where did they get $4.4 billion in profits when non-Covid side of the business only increased revenue by $.7 billion dollars.?

Can you tell Joes Place the minimum amount of profits they made from the Covid side of the business since profits increased by $4.4 billion, but non-Covid revenue only increased by $.7?

It's subtraction, Joes Place. I'll let you assume that the marginal non-Covid business for Phizer is 100% profit. We know it's less, but we're seeking to find the minimum amount of profit they made from the Covid vaccine.

Now, show us the profits numbers. $4.4 billion - $.7 billion = Covid vaccine profits

How much?
 
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Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
117,861
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113
Where did they get $4.4 billion in profits
They've report numbers like that regularly in the past.

IIRC, a couple years ago they had $20B or more in annual profits.

So, AGAIN: How is "$20 a dose" somehow "pandemic pricing"?
This is your premise. Quit Gish Galloping.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,179
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They've report numbers like that regularly in the past.

IIRC, a couple years ago they had $20B or more in annual profits.

So, AGAIN: How is "$20 a dose" somehow "pandemic pricing"?
This is your premise. Quit Gish Galloping.
Tell Joes Place where the $4.4 billion in profits came from when non-COVID revenue increased only $.7 billion.

Say it you gormless worm, and then I’ll explain how you’ve misconstrued the CFO’s comment during the earnings call.

But I can’t continue this conversation with you unless you demonstrate you can acknowledge reality, and say where those profits came from.