A little love for Payton Sandfort

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Iowa just played like shit against Oregon? They did have a more athletic team than Iowa but, realistically quite a few athletically inferior (relative to competition, not objectively "inferior") teams win tourney games and get to the Sweet 16. So, there is more to the loss than Iowa's athletic inferiority to Oregon.

We swept Sparty and Rutgers, both of whom were "athletically" superior to Iowa.

Oregon came out on fire, especially in the second half and Iowa was totally unprepared for it. It wasn't just athletic ability.

This is not to say I prefer less athletic players. My preference is for good players and building a team around what the players on that team need to do to win. Like this team is totally different from last season's team and the style of play will be different.

Unless you're a blue blood BBall recruiting is pretty unstable so you schools get a lot more ups and downs in the gentry class (Iowa). Going back to that NIT final Iowa has had more ups than downs.

But I'm still down with more ups.​

 

[seer_hawk]

I thought I had read that Fran sees him playing the point. I believe he is a sophomore this year.

I think I read Pryce is being recruited as a point forward as well. According to his Rivals profile he's 6'6", and the #100 Jr.

 

[KcTo]

How many points did Oregon score?

56 in 1st half and shot 56% for the game….

insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results…

im positing we optimize our defensive and offensive efficiency, but playing defensive guys that can score, vs offensive guys that are poor at defense (in 2020 that was CJ, JoBo and P Mac)

 

[hawktech]

Yeah, its not crazy.

Theres something different about his readiness to shoot.

He looks like an NBA 3pt specialist in his preparedness to shoot both physically and mentally.

He takes really quick shots but they're not "rushed" he knows what he's doing.

You just don't see that in college players very often.

His bball IQ is up there, for certain. Payton could be a huge addition. Especially considering the circumstances we have with losing 40%+ 3pt shooting in CJ, Garza, Nunge and Joe W. 🤞🤞🤞

 

[nbanflfactory]

56 in 1st half and shot 56% for the game….

insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results…

im positing we optimize our defensive and offensive efficiency, but playing defensive guys that can score, vs offensive guys that are poor at defense (in 2020 that was CJ, JoBo and P Mac)

I don't see any true centers that make us better. Rebraca doesn't look great so far and jo makes Garza look like Usain bolt

 

[HawkLogic]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Iowa just played like shit against Oregon? They did have a more athletic team than Iowa but, realistically quite a few athletically inferior (relative to competition, not objectively "inferior") teams win tourney games and get to the Sweet 16. So, there is more to the loss than Iowa's athletic inferiority to Oregon.

We swept Sparty and Rutgers, both of whom were "athletically" superior to Iowa.

Oregon came out on fire, especially in the second half and Iowa was totally unprepared for it. It wasn't just athletic ability.

This is not to say I prefer less athletic players. My preference is for good players and building a team around what the players on that team need to do to win. Like this team is totally different from last season's team and the style of play will be different.

Unless you're a blue blood BBall recruiting is pretty unstable so you schools get a lot more ups and downs in the gentry class (Iowa). Going back to that NIT final Iowa has had more ups than downs.

But I'm still down with more ups.​

One could use the excuse Oregon loss was a one-off event if not for the obvious pattern of 2nd round game failure. Fran's Iowa has played some good teams in 2nd round in NCAA and not been able to stay in the game for more than a 5-20 mnutes. Gonzaga and Oregon lost the next game after their beatdown of Iowa. Villanova was in a class by itself the year they beat us as was the wood shed beating they put on Iowa. It was one of the most brutal losses I have ever seen. It Reminded of Alford's Iowa team vs Cincinnati way back---run off the court, totally outclassed.

The alternative theory is Iowa particular and B1G in general have not been equipped for more athletic/smaller teams that dominate the NCAA tourney. Iowa hasn't gotten good seeding because they have often have limped into NCAA tourney with teams that did not improve as season went on. Fran's team's haven't played defense very well and that is needed for NCAA tourney success.

This year's team is the 1st one Fran has ever put together at Iowa that is athletic enough to play good man defense and it is young/inexperienced so has potential to be improving/playing its best ball when/IF it makes the NCAA tourney.

 

[KcTo]

it is well known that the teams that advance to the final weekends have a combination of top 5-15 offense and defense.

Frans IOWA team are never in the top 40 in defensive efficiency, this isn’t because they play in slower B1G as they are always in the bottom 3rd of B1G Defensive efficiency.

its Frans system that is structurally flawed that results in consistently poor defensive team efficienvy.

doing the same thing (poor defense) and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

- in Fran we Trust.

 

[RocknRollface]

One could use the excuse Oregon loss was a one-off event if not for the obvious pattern of 2nd round game failure. Fran's Iowa has played some good teams in 2nd round in NCAA and not been able to stay in the game for more than a 5-20 mnutes. Gonzaga and Oregon lost the next game after their beatdown of Iowa. Villanova was in a class by itself the year they beat us as was the wood shed beating they put on Iowa. It was one of the most brutal losses I have ever seen. It Reminded of Alford's Iowa team vs Cincinnati way back---run off the court, totally outclassed.

The alternative theory is Iowa particular and B1G in general have not been equipped for more athletic/smaller teams that dominate the NCAA tourney. Iowa hasn't gotten good seeding because they have often have limped into NCAA tourney with teams that did not improve as season went on. Fran's team's haven't played defense very well and that is needed for NCAA tourney success.

This year's team is the 1st one Fran has ever put together at Iowa that is athletic enough to play good man defense and it is young/inexperienced so has potential to be improving/playing its best ball when/IF it makes the NCAA tourney.

What I find funny is that small athletic teams often beat BIG teams in the tournament but for some reason its assumed you can't do well in conference with the same type of team.

 

[RocknRollface]

it is well known that the teams that advance to the final weekends have a combination of top 5-15 offense and defense.

Frans IOWA team are never in the top 40 in defensive efficiency, this isn’t because they play in slower B1G as they are always in the bottom 3rd of B1G Defensive efficiency.

its Frans system that is structurally flawed that results in consistently poor defensive team efficienvy.

doing the same thing (poor defense) and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

- in Fran we Trust.

Its more his lack of concern for defense.

It influences his recruiting and his coaching.

He is at least recruiting better defenders now but I'm going to need to see more from the coach himself interms of demanding defensive results.

 

[BBHawk]

Its more his lack of concern for defense.

It influences his recruiting and his coaching.

He is at least recruiting better defenders now but I'm going to need to see more from the coach himself interms of demanding defensive results.

So...pulling the starters except Keegan wasn't a sign for you?

 

[IllQChawk]

Everyone harps on Fran's teaching or lack of Iowa playing defense. Fran could accentually keep opponents to around 50 points a game just like Wisconsin does, IF HE WANTED TO. You would all be so proud if he did, which is never going to happen because Wisconsin keeps opponents to the low 50's because they slow the game down and use almost the entire shot clock on offense and play pack line defense keeping the other team from scoring at a faster pace. Their key to their defense is to limit the number of touches that their opponent gets in a game. Make sense? Hard to wrap your head around that concept, isn't it?
What does Iowa do, their philosophy is to push the ball, create as many touches on offense as they can achieve in a game. That means that their opponents have the the same opportunity to get lots of touches in the game. Sometimes Iowa makes more baskets and creates more opportunities to score then their opponents, other times the other team comes out on top, but Iowa is never ever going to finish at the top of any defensive statistical category, it's never going to happen ever, under Fran, did I say never!
Those on here and on other Iowa forums can harp all they want about Iowa not playing defense and it won't change a thing, that's not Iowa's philosophy.
Play fast, take fast shots and entice the other team to do the same.
If you want Iowa to limit opponents to a lower total it will have to be under someone other then Fran McCaffery, and that's a fact!

 

[unoHawkeye]

Iowa’s recruiting has drastically improved (even with out of state players) because of Fran’s style/pace of play. It gives players a great opportunity to put their full offensive arsenal on display. 3 players in or floating between NBA and GLeague is no joke, and it’s soon to be 5 after Keegan and Kris leave Iowa. As Fran continues to get the guys he wants, Iowa will continue to improve on both sides of the ball

 

[Franisdaman]

For people who follow closely, is his brother of a similar mold?

Pryce projects to be even better.

Pryce is a 4 Star, Top 100 player at the moment. Compare that to Payton's final Rivals rating, where he was a 3 Star and not a Top 100 player.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

One could use the excuse Oregon loss was a one-off event if not for the obvious pattern of 2nd round game failure. Fran's Iowa has played some good teams in 2nd round in NCAA and not been able to stay in the game for more than a 5-20 mnutes. Gonzaga and Oregon lost the next game after their beatdown of Iowa. Villanova was in a class by itself the year they beat us as was the wood shed beating they put on Iowa. It was one of the most brutal losses I have ever seen. It Reminded of Alford's Iowa team vs Cincinnati way back---run off the court, totally outclassed.

The alternative theory is Iowa particular and B1G in general have not been equipped for more athletic/smaller teams that dominate the NCAA tourney. Iowa hasn't gotten good seeding because they have often have limped into NCAA tourney with teams that did not improve as season went on. Fran's team's haven't played defense very well and that is needed for NCAA tourney success.

This year's team is the 1st one Fran has ever put together at Iowa that is athletic enough to play good man defense and it is young/inexperienced so has potential to be improving/playing its best ball when/IF it makes the NCAA tourney.

Didn't Iowa lose in OT in the second round in 2019? My concern is the pattern of coming out unprepared to play in these games. It wouldn't hurt if Iowa was able to hire a young assistant that was known for defensive coaching. Probably not going to happen but that's what I'd do if I were McC.

RnRFace makes a good point, although perhaps unintentionally. You do need big guys that play really rough, physical ball to win in the Big Ten. If that was your point and I misunderstood, sorry-I agree with you.

Then the Big Ten teams hit the NCAA tournament. Not true every year but with sufficient frequency to indicate a problem. Big Ten basketball really isn't played like the rest of the country or officiated like the rest of the country. Even the Big Ten's best officials allow for much more physical play than the rest of the country. Throw in the dishonest protection that some of B!G blue bloods get and the tournament officiating hits the B!G teams like an electric shock. Suddenly pushing a guy off the court and into a basket support isn't just a foul but a technical foul. Aggressive hand checking 30' from the basket gets called.

The B!G style of play is not going to change, at least not for a long time.​

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

It will be hard for Pryce to overlook Iowa. Brothers tend to attend the same school, plus the higher profile in state school, plus familiarity with coaches and players and the campus life. Wouldn't Pryce spend a few weekends hanging with his big brother, looking for some college girls, in Iowa City?

 

[hawktech]

Didn't Iowa lose in OT in the second round in 2019? My concern is the pattern of coming out unprepared to play in these games. It wouldn't hurt Iowa if was able to hire a young assistant that was known for defensive coaching. Probably not going to happen but that's what I'd do if I were McC.

RnRFace makes a good point, although perhaps unintentionally. You do need big guys that play really rough, physical ball to win in the Big Ten. If that was your point and I misunderstood, sorry-I agree with you.
O
Then the Big Ten teams hit the NCAA tournament. Not true every year but with sufficient frequency to indicate a problem. Big Ten basketball really isn't played like the rest of the country or officiated like the rest of the country. Even the Big Ten's best officials allow for much more physical play than the rest of the country. Throw in the dishonest protection that some of B!G blue bloods get and the tournament officiating hits the B!G teams like an electric shock. Suddpenly pushing a guy off the court and into a basket support isn't just a foul but a technical foul. Aggressive hand checking 30' from the basket gets called.

The B!G style of play is not going to change, at least not for a long time.​

Not until Tom Izzo retires... Which will hopefully be Soon!

MSU has helped dictate the style of play for Decades now, literally. Tough, rough, physical play has been a major issue... While the rest of the country plays an uptempo offense with significantly less aggressive play.

A fresh group of referees would be a good step forward. Let Izzo learn to adapt, or get the heck into retirement

 

[jonesy5960]

Everyone harps on Fran's teaching or lack of Iowa playing defense. Fran could accentually keep opponents to around 50 points a game just like Wisconsin does, IF HE WANTED TO. You would all be so proud if he did, which is never going to happen because Wisconsin keeps opponents to the low 50's because they slow the game down and use almost the entire shot clock on offense and play pack line defense keeping the other team from scoring at a faster pace. Their key to their defense is to limit the number of touches that their opponent gets in a game. Make sense? Hard to wrap your head around that concept, isn't it?
What does Iowa do, their philosophy is to push the ball, create as many touches on offense as they can achieve in a game. That means that their opponents have the the same opportunity to get lots of touches in the game. Sometimes Iowa makes more baskets and creates more opportunities to score then their opponents, other times the other team comes out on top, but Iowa is never ever going to finish at the top of any defensive statistical category, it's never going to happen ever, under Fran, did I say never!
Those on here and on other Iowa forums can harp all they want about Iowa not playing defense and it won't change a thing, that's not Iowa's philosophy.
Play fast, take fast shots and entice the other team to do the same.
If you want Iowa to limit opponents to a lower total it will have to be under someone other then Fran McCaffery, and that's a fact!

This is a flawed argument. Nobody cares about how many points Iowa gives up on an absolute basis. Defensive efficiency has nothing to do with how fast you play. It has to do with how many points you allow per possession. Iowa's issue has been that their defensive efficiency has been bad. You can play fast AND play good defense. The two are not mutually exclusive. Elite teams do it every year including this one.

 

[IllQChawk]

You believe your point of view and I'll believe in mine. As they say, no matter what food you eat eventually it all turns to sh!t....

 

[RocknRollface]

So...pulling the starters except Keegan wasn't a sign for you?

It was encouraging.

 

[RocknRollface]

You believe your point of view and I'll believe in mine. As they say, no matter what food you eat eventually it all turns to sh!t....

Both points have merit.

Usually to be at the very top of defensive efficiency you have to play slower and conserve energy on offense like a Virginia.

But to say you can't play fast and play good defense is silly. Look at Baylor last year

Limiting total points is different than points per possession.
.
Defensive efficiency is how teams are compared now and Iowa has been bad based on those metrics.

Its not hard to see tthat most years under Fran Iowa just hasn't had very many good defenders and the main scorers have been pretty lazy on defense.

 

[jonesy5960]

You believe your point of view and I'll believe in mine. As they say, no matter what food you eat eventually it all turns to sh!t....

You're entitled to believe whatever you like. Their is nothing in my statements that presents a point of view or an opinion. It is simply a statement of fact that Iowa's defensive efficiency has been bad over the last several years. PPG is a superfluous defensive statistic that is a function of offensive pace and how many points per possession you allow. Iowa's pace provides more opportunities for the opponent to score. That is not debatable. Nor is it indicative of defensive weakness. Iowa's defensive efficiency allows too many points per possession. That is also not debatable. As opposed to pace it is a direct reflection of good or bad defense along with the quality of the opposition. That is why Iowa's defensive efficiency on Kenpom is ranked 78th in the country. It it were based on points per game Iowa's defense would be ranked closer to 140th.

 

[KcTo]

Everyone harps on Fran's teaching or lack of Iowa playing defense. Fran could accentually keep opponents to around 50 points a game just like Wisconsin does, IF HE WANTED TO. You would all be so proud if he did, which is never going to happen because Wisconsin keeps opponents to the low 50's because they slow the game down and use almost the entire shot clock on offense and play pack line defense keeping the other team from scoring at a faster pace. Their key to their defense is to limit the number of touches that their opponent gets in a game. Make sense? Hard to wrap your head around that concept, isn't it?
What does Iowa do, their philosophy is to push the ball, create as many touches on offense as they can achieve in a game. That means that their opponents have the the same opportunity to get lots of touches in the game. Sometimes Iowa makes more baskets and creates more opportunities to score then e their opponents, other times the other team comes out on top, but Iowa is never ever going to finish at the top of any defensive statistical category, it's never going to happen ever, under Fran, did I say never!
Those on here and on other Iowa forums can harp all they want about Iowa not playing defense and it won't change a thing, that's not Iowa's philosophy.
Play fast, take fast shots and entice the other team to do the same.
If you want Iowa to limit opponents to a lower total it will have to be under someone other then Fran McCaffery, and that's a fact!

IIIQC and others that agree with this post/way of thinking,

We aren’t talking about total points, which are as you accurately portray, are a function of total possessions, and can be limited by the example you gave with Wisconsin, which makes every game a 50 possession game.

we are talking and have been talking about offensive and defensive efficiency. These are metrics that determine how many points you give up per possession. Offensive and defensive points per possession don’t care if you have a slow,tempo offense like Wisconsin, and limit your opponent to 50 possessions or a high tempo team like Fran has that creates 70 possession.

Frans team are always in the lower 25 Percentile in these defensive metrics, and its an extreme outlier that performs like this defensively that every makes a deep run in the tournaments, it is very rare.

History shows us that Frans team consistently have extremly poor defensive metrics, history shows us that teams with extremely poor defense profiles rarely makes deep runs into tournaments.

Doing the same thing in the same ways and Expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

even with the 2020 NCAA POY, another NBA player and potential 2021 B1G POY on the roster, they still got blown out in their tournament games and the likes of Gonzaga,. Frans model is to focus on shooters and 1 guy to pass them the ball and not consider the defensive liability this combination opens IOWA up to, which is poor defensive efficiency.

that is why a few outliers here have been begging to play offensive guys that can play defense with a few guys that can play defense or the Murrays, with Perk and a distributor that can play elite point guard defense plus a rebounder / rim protector (an Ogundele type ) to stop easy layups, limit 2nd chance rebounds, and freely give 5 fouls in their dedication to paint defense.

I Hope this explanation helps

-in Fran we Trust

 

[91hawki]

One could use the excuse Oregon loss was a one-off event if not for the obvious pattern of 2nd round game failure. Fran's Iowa has played some good teams in 2nd round in NCAA and not been able to stay in the game for more than a 5-20 mnutes. Gonzaga and Oregon lost the next game after their beatdown of Iowa. Villanova was in a class by itself the year they beat us as was the wood shed beating they put on Iowa. It was one of the most brutal losses I have ever seen. It Reminded of Alford's Iowa team vs Cincinnati way back---run off the court, totally outclassed.

The alternative theory is Iowa particular and B1G in general have not been equipped for more athletic/smaller teams that dominate the NCAA tourney. Iowa hasn't gotten good seeding because they have often have limped into NCAA tourney with teams that did not improve as season went on. Fran's team's haven't played defense very well and that is needed for NCAA tourney success.

This year's team is the 1st one Fran has ever put together at Iowa that is athletic enough to play good man defense and it is young/inexperienced so has potential to be improving/playing its best ball when/IF it makes the NCAA tourney.

Oregon was rested and we were exhausted
End of story

 

[KcTo]

Oregon was rested and we were exhausted
End of story

People,
the last 5 years iowas adjusted defense ranked from last year
#75
#97
#111
#242

to put forth the poor defensive effort that led to Oregon running IOWA out of the gym was based on the assertion they were tired goes against years of data that shows there is a systemic issue with defense.

gonzaga had the #1 adjusted offense and #11 Adjusted defense
baylor #2 and #22

there are those here that regular put forth that Iowas uptempo game is effective, but needs a greater blend of defenders to bring those defensive numbers into a place where they can compete in even the 2nd day of the tournament…

this yr iowa sits at #5 Adjusted Offense and #78 Def
last yr iowa was at #3 Adjusted Offense #75 Def

doing the same thing and expecting different results….. = insanity

-In Fran we Trust

 

[Ronman]

So, you're saying we really like having Payton on the team and would love to add his brother when the time comes. Good to know.

 

[perryhawk]

People,
the last 5 years iowas adjusted defense ranked from last year
#75
#97
#111
#242

to put forth the poor defensive effort that led to Oregon running IOWA out of the gym was based on the assertion they were tired goes against years of data that shows there is a systemic issue with defense.

gonzaga had the #1 adjusted offense and #11 Adjusted defense
baylor #2 and #22

there are those here that regular put forth that Iowas uptempo game is effective, but needs a greater blend of defenders to bring those defensive numbers into a place where they can compete in even the 2nd day of the tournament…

this yr iowa sits at #5 Adjusted Offense and #78 Def
last yr iowa was at #3 Adjusted Offense #75 Def

doing the same thing and expecting different results….. = insanity

-In Fran we Trust

So what is your theory on what made the difference between #75 and #242?

 

[RocknRollface]

So what is your theory on what made the difference between #75 and #242?

Different players.

 

[perryhawk]

Different players.

So it’s not solely effort, or scheme, it could involve players/roster, schedule, matchup, etc?

 

[RocknRollface]

So it’s not solely effort, or scheme, it could involve players/roster, schedule, matchup, etc?

Yes. Better defenders play better defense.

Still theres usually a general lack of attention to detail that seems to be an issue most years.

Defense is about 5 guys being cohesive. That has to be practiced to be perfected and it seems like Iowas offense is generally more cohesive that the D.

 

[KcTo]

So what is your theory on what made the difference between #75 and #242?

That’s a great question, here are some numbers with out any theory color…

For the season, that 2017-18 team (#242) led by Jobo, Cook, Moss, Garza had its top 11 players all with a defensive grade greater than 106 topping off with JoBo at 115 (and Jobo, the worst, logged the most minutes)

last years team ( #75) was led by Keegan at 95, Nunge at 99, garza at 100, Joe and joe at 101, but still had some guys that played significant minutes with high numbers like CJ at 111.

the current team has 6 guys under 90: Keegan, Kris, Perkins, JoeT, Rebraca being led by Ogundele 79. ( and Keegan elite defense has logged the most minutes)
Of course the usual caveats apply of small sample , competition, etc, etc…