Alec Baldwin and prop lady to be charged with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

[Hoosierhawkeye]

How many people have died this way? Is there reason to believe that the industry procedures are wrong or did something happen on this set that was outside normal procedures?

One more person has died then has needed to. And I'm not sure this is the only person that has died because live rounds were accidentally swapped out for blanks.

Again the liability is 100% on the armorer. But as a safety standard it seems to me that everyone in the chain of custody of the gun should verify what is in the gun. The more people that check the gun the less likely anything is to slip through. Armorers can make mistakes like anyone else. This just double checks their work.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

rudimentary firearm training doesn't cover distinguishing the difference in the look of a live vs blank round. They're made to look like live rounds, they just don't have a projectile. It takes more specialized training from what I've read to distinguish them, which is why there are better procedures to do that involving people who are trained. Should they also be required to check the brake lines and tire pressures on cars they drive or make certain food they serve doesn't actually contain poison?

Again, in all the years of shooting movies this is the first time it's EVER happened. It's a bit ridiculous to demand actors understand all the ins and outs of every prop they handle.

It's not the first time it's ever happened and blank rounds look very different from real ones. It doesn't take a freaking expert to distinguish the two.

I agree that if you are handling a gun on set rudimentary firearms training should be important. Firearms are actually not very complex things. It doesn't take months or years to be able to learn how to handle one safely.
The armorer could have a sit down class that takes no more than an hour, probably less to explain this stuff. Show everyone the difference between a live and a blank round, show everyone how to visually inspect the firearm and it's status.

 

[kc78]

For me the liability still all falls on the prop master. Charging actors seems too far. That said, he was a producer, so that could change if he knowingly allowed unsafe practices, took the gun out of proper chain of custody (Maybe not allowing the prop master time to examine, etc...). If it is true that he knowingly allowed live rounds on the set, then that could be a cause to charge him for negligence. I can see allowing target practice, but that should require a complete isolation of prop weapons from those used for practice and a total isolation of ammunition. If all of that had procedure in place and it was all followed to the best of his knowledge then it's just a bad accident. If he knowingly allowed for safety policies to be ignored, then I think there's legal cause for jeopardy.

 

[Aardvark86]

Here's the real question: My understanding is that New Mexico law authorizes the live broadcast of trial proceedings. Do we see that? Is this OJ II?

I can't imagine that a request/motion to that effect wouldn't be made. At the end of the day, it would be interesting to hear/see what the actual testimony is regarding what, precisely, happened on the set that day for all of us armchair lawyers/jurors to evaluate under involuntary manslaughter standards..

 

[Aardvark86]

For those interested, the actual charging documents reflecting the governments specific allegations supporting the charges are contained in this article (only place I’ve found them). Draw your own conclusions.

Prosecutors Slam Alec Baldwin's 'Inconsistent Accounts' of Deadly 'Rust' Shooting in Newly Released Charging Docs

New Mexico prosecutors formally filed the criminal complaint against Alec Baldwin and his co-defendants over the deadly shooting on the set of "Rust."

lawandcrime.com

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

For those interested, the actual charging documents reflecting the governments specific allegations supporting the charges are contained in this article (only place I’ve found them). Draw your own conclusions.

Prosecutors Slam Alec Baldwin's 'Inconsistent Accounts' of Deadly 'Rust' Shooting in Newly Released Charging Docs

New Mexico prosecutors formally filed the criminal complaint against Alec Baldwin and his co-defendants over the deadly shooting on the set of "Rust."

lawandcrime.com

Sounds like a sloppy and careless set, but I just don’t know about criminal charges. I wonder if the New Mexico Film Commission is a little concerned about any effects on future filmmaking in NM.

 

[Aardvark86]

Sounds like a sloppy and careless set, but I just don’t know about criminal charges. I wonder if the New Mexico Film Commission is a little concerned about any effects on future filmmaking in NM.

There’s a bit here that sounds like they’re trying too hard to weave everything into a broader story of recklessness. But If they have evidence of the allegations, the case will get to the jury. Once there, the jurors will wrestle with what you are wrestling with — are we really going to criminalize this? Some may say no, some may say yes because someone died, and some may say yes because they hate Baldwin. I’m thinking hung jury.

 

[hawkedoff]

Alec was the producer. He is responsible. Especially if the armored wasn't qualified which it appears she wasnt.

 

[Pete Malloy]

OK, but if you're an armorer and load a pistol with blanks and hand it to the actor before a scene, do you really want the actor to eject the clip, take all the rounds out and inspect them, and load them back up before the scene?

If you're an armorer, wouldn't you then want to inspect the weapon again to make sure the actor didn't some way, some how load a live round into the magazine?

Seems like it would paralyze a film set if actors can't rely on the expertise of the armorers. Then again, I've never been on a set so have no idea what is done.

Yes I would expect a normal person to inspect all the ammunition prior to pointing it and pulling the trigger.

The NRA supports safe handling and use of any firearm.

 

[JupiterHawk]

The movie was supposed to finish filming in January. I wonder if they even started.

 

[JupiterHawk]

No charges were filed for the crow.

As a nearly month-long police investigation draws to a close, North Carolina District Attorney Jerry Spivey announces on April 27, 1993 that the death of 28-year-old Brandon Lee on March 31 of that same year during filming of The Crow was due to negligence on the part of the film’s crew, not foul play.

Filming of The Crow began in February 1993. Around midnight on the morning of March 31, the cast and crew were filming a scene at Carolco Studios in Wilmington, North Carolina. As Lee entered a room, another actor shot him from a distance of 15-20 feet. Though the gun was supposed to have been loaded with blanks, police later found that a .44 bullet entered Lee’s abdomen and lodged in his spine, fatally wounding him. He died in the hospital hours later of internal injuries, blood loss and heart failure.

As the police investigation began, little was certain about how Lee died, and rumors circulated that the film set was jinxed (there had been a series of accidents), or that his death had been plotted by some unknown enemy. In the end, the truth was far less sinister, but no less tragic. Hollowed-out cartridges are often used to film close-ups of a gun being loaded; the “dummy” cartridges are then supposed to be removed and replaced with blanks before being fired. The police investigation into Lee’s death concluded that a tip of one of the cartridge’s bullets broke off from the cartridge and lodged in the gun, then fired at Lee along with the blank.

D.A. Spivey eventually decided against bringing charges against Crowvision, the production company making the movie. Though Lee was to have appeared in nearly all of the scenes left to be shot, the filmmakers completed The Crow using another actor as a double and a good deal of digital technology. The movie went on to make $50 million at the box office

 

[IowaPackFan]

One more person has died then has needed to. And I'm not sure this is the only person that has died because live rounds were accidentally swapped out for blanks.

I think you have that backwards

 

[hawkedoff]

Alec shot someone. The idea he shouldn't face a jury because he is rich and famous is a strange idea. No one I noticed is defending the nobody armorer.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Alec shot someone. The idea he shouldn't face a jury because he is rich and famous is a strange idea. No one I noticed is defending the nobody armorer.

The problem is that it's very clear based on context and evidence that the shooting was accidental and he was told by people who have professional responsibility over the weapon that the weapon he was handling was not loaded with live rounds.

Now I personally think the industry standards for safety need to be updated so that anyone who touches the weapon should be double checking it. That having been said he was following the industry standard for safety at that time. And those industry standards for safety have been mostly successful as very very few people have been killed by accidental shootings with prop guns on movie sets.

So in legal terms I just don't see how you can hold him negligent in a criminal manner. You could argue he was negligent in a civil manner because as a producer he could have or should have fired a armorer that was shown to be unqualified. But saying that he should have known the armorer was unqualified or negligent and should have therefore fired her only exposes him to civil liability. The only way he is exposed to criminal liability is if he was unsafe in his usage of the gun on set. . . which again when it comes to that he seems to have followed the standards of safety in place at the time.

This has nothing to do with his wealth or fame and everything to do with the fact that you can't hold someone responsible for an accident when that person followed all of the safety standards expected of them. That's true not just for Alec Baldwin but the same would be true if someone is killed in a factory accident that you can't criminally charge their co worker who was following all of the safety standards.

 

[Aardvark86]

The problem is that it's very clear based on context and evidence that the shooting was accidental and he was told by people who have professional responsibility over the weapon that the weapon he was handling was not loaded with live rounds.

Now I personally think the industry standards for safety need to be updated so that anyone who touches the weapon should be double checking it. That having been said he was following the industry standard for safety at that time. And those industry standards for safety have been mostly successful as very very few people have been killed by accidental shootings with prop guns on movie sets.

So in legal terms I just don't see how you can hold him negligent in a criminal manner. You could argue he was negligent in a civil manner because as a producer he could have or should have fired a armorer that was shown to be unqualified. But saying that he should have known the armorer was unqualified or negligent and should have therefore fired her only exposes him to civil liability. The only way he is exposed to criminal liability is if he was unsafe in his usage of the gun on set. . . which again when it comes to that he seems to have followed the standards of safety in place at the time.

This has nothing to do with his wealth or fame and everything to do with the fact that you can't hold someone responsible for an accident when that person followed all of the safety standards expected of them. That's true not just for Alec Baldwin but the same would be true if someone is killed in a factory accident that you can't criminally charge their co worker who was following all of the safety standards.

1. "Accidental" is precisely why we have involuntary manslaughter laws. I have no problem with him being charged, and as I noted above, I think the allegations in support of probable cause certainly get the question to a jury if corresponding evidence is admitted.
2. As to standards and processes, the PC allegations actually deal with that quite a bit, both in his capacity as actor handling the weapon and as producer with overall responsibility for the set. Now as I mentioned, reading the PC affidavit, there is a bit of a stench of "trying too hard." Ultimately, we'll see what 'experts' actually testify to in terms of industry standards, etc., and more importantly, we'll see what the jury thinks of that and wants to do here. I wouldn't doubt that there will be those who question criminal exposure for 'accidental' things, and I really do 'get' that. But we have plenty of crimes for unintentional, and less than reckless, conduct. I wouldn't want to be a juror here.

 

[kc78]

The problem is that it's very clear based on context and evidence that the shooting was accidental and he was told by people who have professional responsibility over the weapon that the weapon he was handling was not loaded with live rounds.

Now I personally think the industry standards for safety need to be updated so that anyone who touches the weapon should be double checking it. That having been said he was following the industry standard for safety at that time. And those industry standards for safety have been mostly successful as very very few people have been killed by accidental shootings with prop guns on movie sets.

So in legal terms I just don't see how you can hold him negligent in a criminal manner. You could argue he was negligent in a civil manner because as a producer he could have or should have fired a armorer that was shown to be unqualified. But saying that he should have known the armorer was unqualified or negligent and should have therefore fired her only exposes him to civil liability. The only way he is exposed to criminal liability is if he was unsafe in his usage of the gun on set. . . which again when it comes to that he seems to have followed the standards of safety in place at the time.

This has nothing to do with his wealth or fame and everything to do with the fact that you can't hold someone responsible for an accident when that person followed all of the safety standards expected of them. That's true not just for Alec Baldwin but the same would be true if someone is killed in a factory accident that you can't criminally charge their co worker who was following all of the safety standards.

I don't see any way you charge him as the person who shot them. I don't think it's very good law to charge people for recklessness when using a gun on a movie set which was handed to you buy someone who's job it is to tell you it's properly handled. I mean would we charge a stunt driver for an accident if the brakes on his car don't operate properly? No, but the person responsible for the brakes could be.

Now, he was the producer on the set so that muddies the waters. Did he knowingly hire people who were not qualified? Did he knowingly allow for lax safety standards? If so he could be liable. Now I still don't know about criminal liability. That would require a much higher threshold for me, and it has nothing to do with him as rich and famous. However I definitely see a civil case in that instance.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

Blew off the safety training, constantly on his phone during it.
Repeatedly seen with his finger on the trigger lied about it to investigators. AB is in trouble.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Alec shot someone. The idea he shouldn't face a jury because he is rich and famous is a strange idea. No one I noticed is defending the nobody armorer.

Who is defending him because he’s rich and famous?

 

[kc78]

Blew off the safety training, constantly on his phone during it.
Repeatedly seen with his finger on the trigger lied about it to investigators. AB is in trouble.

eh. It'll go to a court. I don't see a jury convicting him on this. I do see civil liability. It's definitely a high enough threshold for that. But he had every right from a criminal standpoint to believe the weapon he was holding was safe, so it would be a stretch to see criminal liability in that regard.

 

[Aardvark86]

I don't see any way you charge him as the person who shot them. I don't think it's very good law to charge people for recklessness when using a gun on a movie set which was handed to you buy someone who's job it is to tell you it's properly handled. I mean would we charge a stunt driver for an accident if the brakes on his car don't operate properly? No, but the person responsible for the brakes could be.

Now, he was the producer on the set so that muddies the waters. Did he knowingly hire people who were not qualified? Did he knowingly allow for lax safety standards? If so he could be liable. Now I still don't know about criminal liability. That would require a much higher threshold for me, and it has nothing to do with him as rich and famous. However I definitely see a civil case in that instance.

Re: charging him, I hear you, but read the charging documents, and for the sake of argument, accept the factual assertions therein as true.

 

[hawkedoff]

Who is defending him because he’s rich and famous?

Lol. Ok

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Lol. Ok

You think people here are that starstruck?

 

[hawkedoff]

You think people here are that starstruck?

Oh yes very much so. Must defend Alec Baldwin. So many people in this thread are defending him as if he is a family.member or s very dear friend. Now why would that be exactly? Tell me why the resident leftys have all taken up the cause?

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Oh yes very much so. Must defend Alec Baldwin. So many people in this thread are defending him as if he is a family.member or s very dear friend. Now why would that be exactly? Tell me why the resident leftys have all taken up the cause?

Oh brother.

 

[hawkedoff]

Oh brother.

So tell.me brother.....why are you defending him to the point that you cannot even fathom that this decision went in front of a grand jury and now will be heard by an actual jury. It doesn't have anything at all to do.with Alec being a darling of the left would it? He hired the armorer on the set or was responsible for the entire production and staff being the producer. Why shouldn't the family of the person killed have justice in the form of a trial?

People are in prison for less

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

So tell.me brother.....why are you defending him to the point that you cannot even fathom that this decision went in front of a grand jury and now will be heard by an actual jury. It doesn't have anything at all to do.with Alec being a darling of the left would it? He hired the armorer on the set or was responsible for the entire production and staff being the producer. Why shouldn't the family of the person killed have justice in the form of a trial?

People are in prison for less

I don’t believe it went before a grand jury, just the DA and special prosecutor electing to pursue charges. I think the charges are a stretch but can see how someone would disagree. Either way, I don’t see a conviction.

Why do you think Baldwin is a “darling of the left”? Simply because he lampooned Trump on SNL?

 

[Gus is dead]

Why would he point the weapon at someone not in the scene and squeeze the trigger?

I get it that if in the process of shooting a scene where a trigger pull is needed for accuracy of the scene some other actor gets shot. Then it’s on the armorer. Baldwin was defining whst he was supposed to. But he pointed it at a producer right? He didn’t need to squeeze the trigger then. Even if we assume he was acting out the acting. Why take any chance at all? Anyone that’s ever been around guns knows don’t point a weapon at anything you can’t or don’t intend to shoot. And never ever pull the trigger unless you’re willing to discharge a round.

This is how I see it. I’ll try to take the time to read the facts above to get a better idea of what went down but preliminarily it sounds like he’s guilty to me of reckless endangerment.

 

[Gus is dead]

Ok I read the charging papers. Looks like this is exactly what I suspected. He had the actual gun to be used in the scene during a rehearsal and pointed it at the victim during said rehearsal and pulled the trigger. This along with all the other violations of protocol should result in him being prosecuted.

He was clueless when it came to guns and didn’t give the weapon the absolute respect it requires and someone died. The charging osiers say exactly what I did. Don’t point a weapon at something you don’t intend to shoot.

Guilty. I hope his arrogant ass does time. He deserves it. And the civil lawsuit if it hasn’t already been settled.

 

[kc78]

So tell.me brother.....why are you defending him to the point that you cannot even fathom that this decision went in front of a grand jury and now will be heard by an actual jury. It doesn't have anything at all to do.with Alec being a darling of the left would it? He hired the armorer on the set or was responsible for the entire production and staff being the producer. Why shouldn't the family of the person killed have justice in the form of a trial?

People are in prison for less

People often do go to prison for less and that's terrible. Our country is addicted to prisons and it should stop. But in this case why are all the righties, all the gun nut advocates who constantly defend anyone who has an accidental shooting so ready to lock him up? It's been political since the start. Republicans are foaming at the mouth to see him in jail because he dared to mock Dear Leader.

I think I'm being fair in my approach. I have no love or affection for Baldwin. He's made a few interesting movies but I'm not defending him so much as the process. As Producer I think he has liability. I just think it's a poor approach to charge him as the actor with the weapon. I don't think his liability as producer leads to a criminal conviction. I do think the family should sue him and the studio for an extremely large number and would support him being forced to pay a very large sum for civil liability. There was negligence on set that allowed a very unfortunate accident to occur. There's tons of precedent for civil liability in cases like this, I just don't personally think it arises to criminal, and the only ones who do are righties who would normally defend them if they weren't Baldwin. I think you guys just can't fathom someone making decisions that don't run through a political lens so you reflect it off everyone.