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Amid protests, Penn swimmer Lia Thomas becomes first known transgender athlete to win Division I national championship

Morrison71

HR Legend
Nov 10, 2006
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Lia Thomas is a national champion.

Thomas, who is a transgender woman, touched the wall in 4 minutes, 33.24 seconds in the 500-yard freestyle on Thursday night to become the first known transgender athlete to win a Division I national championship in any sport.

The race began with the crowd cheering for each of the swimmers, but fans were noticeably quiet for Thomas' introduction. Save Women's Sports founder Beth Stelzer draped a vinyl banner with the organization's phrase over the railing.

During the race, Thomas was alternately tested by Olympians Brooke Forde (Stanford), Erica Sullivan (Texas) and Weyant. Thomas led early, but was passed by Sullivan and trailed for most of the first half of the race. Thomas and Weyant went stroke-for-stroke in the back half of the race, but Thomas pulled away over the final 150 yards to win her first national championship.

Thomas, who declined to attend the NCAA-required postrace news conference, told Beisel she has been trying to tune out the distractions. "I try to ignore it as much as I can," Thomas said. "I try to focus on my swimming, what I need to do to get ready for my races. And just try to block out everything else."

As she stood on the podium with her trophy, she flashed a peace sign, just as she did for her four Ivy League championships. And once again, the crowd was noticeably quiet as she was announced as the champion.
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Sorry but that's a man.

Average male swimmer wins women's swimming national championship.
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
 
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Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
So, you admit that Lia had an advantage over all of her competitors due to recently being a man, correct?

That’s what I’m interested in hearing. Because up to this point, you and Huey with your little “studies” have made an effort to suggest there is not advantage. You’ve been trying to get everyone to accept them to be allowed to compete AND suggest the reasoning is that there’s no advantage. But that’s obviously not the case here. Right?

I mean at least the movement could acknowledge the blatant truth. That she has a huge advantage from the start.
 
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
It’s pretty simple and has been stated many times. If you’re a trans athlete, male or female, you should be competing with the men.

Your last sentence is a weak and tired statement. Just because somebody opposes a biological male competing against women doesn’t mean they wish trans people didn’t exist. Nice diversionary tactic.
 
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
Perform where they don't have an inherent advantage over their opponents. Humans that were born female but taking hormones to transition to male have an advantage over women, and humans who were born male have an advantage over women. That means they should all compete in men's sports.

This has nothing to do with treating transgenders with respect. Most people have a Live and Let Live attitude about it. But when it tramples on others' rights, then it becomes a problem. This is so obviously unfair to cisgender women.
 
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
Not participate anymore
 
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.

Stop.

Thinking this is wrong is not transphobic.

This man competed as a man all his life until this year. Decided he was a woman and goes onto win the national championship.

So you are ok with this?

If your daughter got 2nd to Lia, you would be ok with that?

Lia went from not even the top 500 in the men's division to a championship this year.

It's wrong.
It's disgusting.

Be who whoever you want to be, but this is wrong.
 
How can this be true, the transgender woman tied for 5th in the finals? I thought it wasn't possible for cis gender women to beat a transgender woman unless they were a once in a generation talent.

NCAA Division I Championship Meet
2022 NCAA Division I Women's
Swimming & Diving Championships

Event 10 Women 200 Yard Freestyle
=========================================================================
NCAA: N 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
Meet: M 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
American: A 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
US Open: O 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
Pool: P 1:41.35 3/16/2022 Isabel Ivey, California
Name Year School Prelims Finals Points
=========================================================================
=== Championship Final ===

1 Ruck, Taylor JR Stanford 1:41.89 1:41.12P 20
r:+0.66 23.23 48.83 (25.60)
1:14.69 (25.86) 1:41.12 (26.43)
2 Ivey, Isabel SR California 1:42.24 1:41.59 17
r:+0.70 23.51 49.05 (25.54)
1:15.02 (25.97) 1:41.59 (26.57)
3 Pash, Kelly JR Texas 1:42.78 1:42.38 16
r:+0.68 23.92 49.76 (25.84)
1:15.73 (25.97) 1:42.38 (26.65)
4 Nordmann, Lillie FR Stanford 1:43.02 1:42.63 15
r:+0.64 24.10 50.20 (26.10)
1:16.36 (26.16) 1:42.63 (26.27)
5 Thomas, Lia 5Y Penn 1:42.09 1:43.40 13.5
r:+0.75 24.34 50.34 (26.00)
1:16.76 (26.42) 1:43.40 (26.64)
5 Gaines, Riley SR Kentucky 1:43.05 1:43.40 13.5
r:+0.65 24.04 49.77 (25.73)
1:16.03 (26.26) 1:43.40 (27.37)
7 Transom, Laticia-Leig SR USC 1:42.93 1:43.49 12
r:+0.72 23.84 49.60 (25.76)
1:16.18 (26.58) 1:43.49 (27.31)
8 Tankersley, Morgan SR Stanford 1:43.53 1:43.78 11
r:+0.67 24.61 50.75 (26.14)
1:17.23 (26.48) 1:43.78 (26.55)
 
So he got 5th in nationals in one short event while dominating elsewhere.

For the record the woman who took first already has Olympic medals to her name.

I really don't think the fact that he only wins 95% of the time counts as an argument. He was average at best before his transition.
 
How can this be true, the transgender woman tied for 5th in the finals? I thought it wasn't possible for cis gender women to beat a transgender woman unless they were a once in a generation talent.

NCAA Division I Championship Meet
2022 NCAA Division I Women's
Swimming & Diving Championships

Event 10 Women 200 Yard Freestyle
=========================================================================
NCAA: N 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
Meet: M 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
American: A 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
US Open: O 1:39.10 3/20/2015 Missy Franklin, California
Pool: P 1:41.35 3/16/2022 Isabel Ivey, California
Name Year School Prelims Finals Points
=========================================================================
=== Championship Final ===

1 Ruck, Taylor JR Stanford 1:41.89 1:41.12P 20
r:+0.66 23.23 48.83 (25.60)
1:14.69 (25.86) 1:41.12 (26.43)
2 Ivey, Isabel SR California 1:42.24 1:41.59 17
r:+0.70 23.51 49.05 (25.54)
1:15.02 (25.97) 1:41.59 (26.57)
3 Pash, Kelly JR Texas 1:42.78 1:42.38 16
r:+0.68 23.92 49.76 (25.84)
1:15.73 (25.97) 1:42.38 (26.65)
4 Nordmann, Lillie FR Stanford 1:43.02 1:42.63 15
r:+0.64 24.10 50.20 (26.10)
1:16.36 (26.16) 1:42.63 (26.27)
5 Thomas, Lia 5Y Penn 1:42.09 1:43.40 13.5
r:+0.75 24.34 50.34 (26.00)
1:16.76 (26.42) 1:43.40 (26.64)
5 Gaines, Riley SR Kentucky 1:43.05 1:43.40 13.5
r:+0.65 24.04 49.77 (25.73)
1:16.03 (26.26) 1:43.40 (27.37)
7 Transom, Laticia-Leig SR USC 1:42.93 1:43.49 12
r:+0.72 23.84 49.60 (25.76)
1:16.18 (26.58) 1:43.49 (27.31)
8 Tankersley, Morgan SR Stanford 1:43.53 1:43.78 11
r:+0.67 24.61 50.75 (26.14)
1:17.23 (26.48) 1:43.78 (26.55)
Perspective. Went from 554th to 5th by jist declaring himself a female. And Viola! Moves up 549 more spots! But hey…no proof of an advantage right? Still waiting for that. You wanna go ahead and admit it? No chance the others will.
 
I think most folks can admit this is screwed up Bigly and policy needs to change. It’s ok to not allow athletes born male and reached adulthood male banned from participating in women’s sports.

And where does it end? Does she count as female for Title IX? I would guess so. Can she get a business loan from a program targeted for women?

How we choose to accept her from a social aspect is completely separate from how to handle the legal and ethical questions. That should not be difficult to accept.
 
Be mad at the NCAA then for making the rules. What do you want trans athletes to do? If you say go by their birth sex, you want trans men competing with women then? Just say what you really want, you just want them to not exist at all.
You're a typical liberal cretin. Logic, common sense the truth, and reality be damned. All freaks must be admired.

If "Lia" identified as a hamster everyone would feel sorry for him. But a man who believes he is a women is celebrated.
 
Perspective. Went from 554th to 5th by jist declaring himself a female. And Viola! Moves up 549 more spots! But hey…no proof of an advantage right? Still waiting for that. You wanna go ahead and admit it? No chance the others will.
I have said many times on HROT that there needs to be a middle ground. Your statement that all she did to go from 554 to 5th is declaring as a female is false. There was a lot more to her being able to compete on the Women's team than that. This article from The New Yorker is interesting and informative. I doubt many posters will read the article, but I'll post it for those who are interested.

The Trans Swimmer Who Won Too Much

Lia Thomas is not the first trans swimmer in the N.C.A.A., but her victories have put her at the center of a debate about trans athletes.

Lia Thomas has been swimming since she was five years old. As a high schooler, she was one of the top swimmers in Texas, an All-American. She followed her older brother onto the men’s team at the University of Pennsylvania, and established herself as a strong competitor in distance races; in her sophomore season, at the Ivy League championships, she finished second in three events. Out of the pool, though, she was struggling. Her body, with its solid pectorals and compact, muscled hips, characteristic traits of a male athlete, didn’t align with her sense of who she was, she later told the podcast SwimSwam, in one of the two interviews she has given this season. She read the personal stories of trans women online, and was paired with a trans mentor through a group at Penn. She saw her own feelings reflected in their stories, she recently told Sports Illustrated. In the summer of 2018, after her freshman season, she realized that she was a woman, not a man.

It took her a while to come out to her teammates and coaches. She didn’t want to jeopardize her swimming career. And she was swimming well: setting personal bests, breaking pool records. Still, the suffering became too much; knowing that she was a woman and competing as a man “caused me a lot of distress,” she has said. In May, 2019, she decided not to put off hormone-replacement therapy any longer. Almost immediately, she told Sports Illustrated, she felt better. She was determined to hold on to that part of herself that was a competitive swimmer. She came out to her coaches. They were immediately supportive, she said, and they stood by her when she decided to join the women’s team. So were her friends.

The N.C.A.A. allowed a path for people like her to join the women’s team, but it was not quick or easy. In general, élite male athletes have considerable physical advantages over élite female athletes. People who have gone through testosterone-driven puberty have, on average, more cardiovascular capacity, greater muscle mass, higher tendon mechanical strength, and denser bones. They tend to be stronger and taller, with longer wingspans. In many sports involving timed races, men are roughly ten to twelve per cent faster than women. The Olympic track champion Allyson Felix’s lifetime best in the four hundred metres is 49.26; in one year, 2017, that time was bettered by men and boys more than fifteen thousand times. In sports involving jumping and pure strength, the gap is even greater. As trans women have fought for inclusion in women’s sports, various governing bodies have implemented rules for mitigating any physical advantages that they might have. But just what those advantages are and how to counteract them—and whether that is necessary or even possible—has been fiercely debated.


Continued in the next post
 
The International Olympic Committee began allowing trans athletes to compete in 2004. At first, the I.O.C. required athletes to legally change their gender and undergo genital surgery, as if a mislabelled passport and the presence of a penis gave them a leg up on the competition. The N.C.A.A., six years later, took a different approach. After consulting with students, medical experts, and people from the L.G.B.T.Q. community, the association announced that trans women would be able to compete on collegiate women’s teams after one year of testosterone suppression. Other governing bodies, including the I.O.C., went on to adopt similar rules.

The focus on testosterone seemed, to many, straightforward: on average, men have testosterone levels around fifteen times that of women, and the competitive advantages of taking testosterone—at least exogenous testosterone, a steroid—were well established. But the research concerning endogenous testosterone, the kind that the body makes naturally, was less settled. There is a gap between the range of testosterone levels in men and the range in women—one researcher described it to me as a “chasm”—but there is enough variability among élite athletes to create some small degree of possible overlap between sexes, and researchers have not been able to establish a definitive causal relationship between individual testosterone levels and athletic performance. Bodies produce differing levels of the hormone, and have differing abilities to make use of it; comparing the testosterone levels of eight cisgender runners or swimmers of the same sex before a race does not tell you who will win it.

At the same time, hormone-replacement therapy may not counteract all the competitive advantages a body might gain during testosterone-driven puberty. It may not fully reduce the difference in lean body mass or in grip strength, for instance, or change the width of a pelvis. And so, while some people maintain that there is not enough evidence to justify rules requiring testosterone suppression, others insist that such rules don’t do enough.


As Thomas underwent hormone-replacement therapy, and went through something like female puberty, she noticed some of her muscles softening. Fat was redistributed around her body, and she felt herself losing aerobic capacity. Her times in the pool started rising. She continued to swim with the men’s team, sporadically, wearing a women’s suit. Then the pandemic started, and the season was cut short; the next season was cancelled altogether. Thomas kept up the hormone therapy, and preserved her final year of eligibility. By the time the current season started, she had been suppressing testosterone for more than two years. She felt happy, she said, to compete, finally, as her “authentic self.”


Few people paid attention when, in a meet against Princeton and Cornell, in November, she put up the season’s best times in the two-hundred-yard and five-hundred-yard freestyle races, and set Penn records. But, in early December, at the Zippy Invitational, in Akron, Ohio, Thomas dropped another second off her time in the five-hundred-yard freestyle, and nearly a second and a half off her time in the two-hundred-yard race. She won the sixteen-hundred-and-fifty-yard freestyle by thirty-eight seconds. On the same day, a group of parents of Penn swimmers anonymously sent a letter to the N.C.A.A. arguing that Thomas should not be allowed to compete in women’s competitions. “At stake here is the integrity of women’s sports,” the parents’ letter, which was also sent to Penn and the Ivy League, declared. “The precedent being set—one in which women do not have a protected and equitable space to compete—is a direct threat to female athletes in every sport. What are the boundaries?”


Continued
 
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