An argument why I wouldn't want Charlie Moore

[DanL53]

First let me say that if McCaffery wants a kid, I want him. That goes for if we offer a Bohannon just as much as that we've offered and pursued Moore. McCaffery's success has been a dang site better than anything we couch coaching posters can claim.

But, I'm going to get negative on this Moore kid, and I'm not going to be upset at all if he goes elsewhere. Why?

Offers: Georgia Tech, Cal, VCU, Pitt, Nevada, Ol' Miss, Iowa, Memphis, UIC, St. Johns, Illinois, DePaul.

I don't see a lot of coaches there, outside of McCaffery, that trip my "If HE wants him!" alarm. No Beilein, Izzo, or Ryan? In fact, personally I don't see a coach, besides McCaffery, that I would consider the kind to push a kid to better things.

Then there is the Iowa offer on 4/13/2015. At that time I see only offers from UIC, DePaul and St. Johns. That tells me coaches were watching the kid, not ready to make the leap. And it is a long time between April 13th and today. Much of what is getting coaches excited is Moore's play in AAU ball in the spring and summer.

A point guard, a scorer, is going to show quite a bit in AAU ball if he wants. And especially playing for Mac Irvin, Nick Irvin is by the way Moore's high school and AAU coach.

I know the kid is talented. And like I say, if McCaffery wants him I'm not dumb enough to not want him. But his trips? Cal, Pitt, Illinois, Memphis? I'm not so sure I'm getting the pattern unless it is one of wanting to play where there is no competition to earn minutes.

That's not Iowa, not with Williams already set to learn the point for a year. Not with Conner McCaffery coming up. And, I'd rather a kid have the urge to play with the best, not be anointed the starter.

We just went through having a guy that couldn't figure out why he wasn't getting minutes. Trey is gone now. I'm not so sure we wouldn't see the same with Moore.

And, bottom line. I want a guy more concerned with winning than with how often he's on the court.

Moore reminds me of the kind of player that ends up scoring 1500 or more points at his second school of choice after a transfer. The kind of kid that we meet in the nonconference and shut down or beat his team by 30 points. Or, he can decide to get with a program, ours or someone else's, and be more than an exciting to watch little guy that scores a lot and gets killed by a taller guard shooting over him.

Just my opinion.

 

[RefinedBean]

Tons of P5 offers, the quickness and agility that has been a hallmark of good-to-great McCaffrey teams at his prior jobs...

I'm not seeing it, Dan. I don't see Bohannon being at all worthwhile to this team. Williams is still an unknown quantity.

I want kids who think they ARE the reason Iowa is going to win - and can back that up with the work necessary and the talent level to even be in the conversation. Trey was not that kid. Moore, in my opinion, could be - more so than Williams or Bohannon.

 

[GlenHawk]

 

[nu2u]

I am behind the "what McCaffery wants" school of thought as well. I do believe Moore can be a difference maker in a McCaffery offense. I would love to watch him play with the 2015 class.

The bottom line, though, is whether or not that player will "buy-in" to the coach's philosophy, adapt to his vision, and put in the hard work needed to succeed, I sense a little bit of this concern about Moore when reading DanL's opening comment. If it is a potential issue, I would prefer he sign elsewhere. I have no reason to believe it would be a problem but I am not intimately involved in his recruitment either. I don't sense any of that attitude with any of the new recruits.

 

[AZmess]

This is nothing more than trying to talk yourself into not being disappointed if he goes elsewhere. And it's definitely looking that way.

 

[Ycusi]

I am behind the "what McCaffery wants" school of thought as well. I do believe Moore can be a difference maker in a McCaffery offense. I would love to watch him play with the 2015 class.

The bottom line, though, is whether or not that player will "buy-in" to the coach's philosophy, adapt to his vision, and put in the hard work needed to succeed, I sense a little bit of this concern about Moore when reading DanL's opening comment. If it is a potential issue, I would prefer he sign elsewhere. I have no reason to believe it would be a problem but I am not intimately involved in his recruitment either. I don't sense any of that attitude with any of the new recruits.

You "sensed" this by reading utter stupidity?

 

[DanL53]

I knew this wouldn't be a popular opinion. But I'd prefer that the , "this is nothing more..." stuff allow that I have a thought in my head beyond just if Moore goes elsewhere. I've written some critical thoughts on Moore before today, and we still don't know but that he might end up a Hawkeye.

I listed my reasons, lack of offers from coaches who's evaluation of players has proven exemplary (besides McCaffery)
The early offer by McCaffery and as such definable as a "risk".
Moore's lack of offers until after he blew up in AAU ball while playing for his high school and AAU ball coach.
His decisions on which schools where he would take official visits.

More on that last one.
Pittsburgh, 19-16
Memphis, 18-14
Illinois, 19-14
Cal, 18-15

Not sure but I don't think a single one of these schools made the NCAA last year. And there seems to be a big concern with Moore that he be assured playing time. Hey, I'd rather have a guy who comes in and is ready to earn playing time, not have it handed to him.

I also recall complaints about a player like Brody Boyd being too short to guard anyone. Granted, he was a shooting guard but these days with guys like Melo Trimble, Bronson Koenig and who knows else popping up, I don't get confident that a 5'11" in his dreams point guard is going to scare anyone.

I love his speed, like that he can shoot and pass. On paper, he looks alright and as I said, if McCaffery is after him I would like to see him as a Hawkeye. But I don't have confidence he would be the huge difference maker many on this board seem to think. I get a bad feeling about him, why not better offers? And, I listed them all, that isn't a "ton" of power five offers and frankly in basketball "power five" isn't the best of terms anyway. Something a football first fan would think of.

Oh, and, Williams is unproven but Moore is proven? How does that work? From what I've seen Williams is the better player, and will be at point.

My opinion, the future of our Point Guards is Williams, either Fleming or perhaps a newbie backing him up for a year...probably Fleming, and in two years Williams and Conner McCaffery which is a dang good point guard duo.

 

[clickhere 01]

We get it,Dan. You have your bases covered. If he comes here,you're all in. If he doesn't then your concerns are duly noted.

If he does go elsewhere, i'm sure you could say that you heard Fran pulled his offer. Good grief

 

[eyesofhawk]

Dan has many good posts. I think he is reading into things a bit much here though.

He basically called-out 12 D1 coaches. For one, Shaka Smart is a darn good coach, and probably more highly regarded nationally than Fran.

Moore's offers took a while to build just the same as any 5'9'' players' would. Coaches don't offer 5'9'' guys until they are completely sure he's good enough.

I don't see where Moore has to worry about minutes at Iowa. Williams is not a true PG. Connor can play combo too and he doesn't posses the quickness that Moore has. Iowa needs what Moore has. He would see plenty of the court.

I see nothing that suggests that Moore would have a bad attitude if he didn't get minutes.

Although I agree that I don't want anyone who expects to be anointed starter, or will run from competition; I don't see a reason to suspect Charlie is that guy.

I also want team-players who once they've become part of the team, are primarily concerned with the well-being of the team. But I'd rather have guys that look for a situation where they can play, rather than settling for a situation where they know they won't play immediately. I want guys that want to play because usually it's because they feel they are good enough to help produce WINS for the TEAM.

I see nothing that suggests Charlie will end up transferring.

I'm sure Fran and the other offering coaches' evaluation of Charlie have concluded that his strengths outweigh the weakness of having bigger guards shoot over him.

Although Moore's offer list doesn't blow you away, it's pretty darn solid. He might not be an all-American type, but in Iowa's system he is definitely is a difference maker.

I think Dan might have got a little too close to this one. Maybe wanted Moore a little too much and doesn't want to feel the pain if the kid sticks it to him. If Moore signs with Hawks the day will come when Dan predicts vast success for Charlie. Breaking down every nuance of his game in a positive light before he will have ever played a game in a Hawkeye uniform. Let's all keep hoping we see that day.

 

[eyesofhawk]

I want to see none of Fleming at PG. Although he has some point skills offensively, what many people don't realize is that a player's position is defined by who he can guard. That can be covered up some in college by zone D's and offensive systems like Iowa's. But you can't expect to be any good at all defensively with Andrew at the point

 

[DanL53]

Tee Hee. At least I've helped cause Hawkeye discussion in August.

I'll just say it. I don't really want Moore. I think Williams is the better point guard. I think Conner McCaffery will be a better point guard.

And I think Moore is a big Chicken s..t for looking so hard for teams that don't have major competition waiting to battle for minutes.

And we don't have to have Moore show up for me to end up being right or wrong...he'll have a college career somewhere. I say he'll be a bust. And by that I mean his team will not succeed with him as the starting point guard. Or, he won't end up being the starting point guard. He's no Tyler Ulis.

 

[DanL53]

I want to see none of Fleming at PG. Although he has some point skills offensively, what many people don't realize is that a player's position is defined by who he can guard. That can be covered up some in college by zone D's and offensive systems like Iowa's. But you can't expect to be any good at all defensively with Andrew at the point

A guy can pay point and still guard someone else. Let Hutton cover the other team's point guard.

 

[hawkfan1963]

So if Moore to Iowa falls through, why not redshirt Clemmons. Have Gessell and Williams(get his feet wet with an experienced guard) in 15-16. Clemmons and Williams in 16-17. Then Williams and McCaffrey or Bohannon after that.

 

[skydog0784]

So if Moore to Iowa falls through, why not redshirt Clemmons. Have Gessell and Williams(get his feet wet with an experienced guard) in 15-16. Clemmons and Williams in 16-17. Then Williams and McCaffrey or Bohannon after that.

I actually thought about that too if Clemmons would be willing to do so. That idea has some merit.

 

[hawkfan1963]

I actually thought about that too if Clemmons would be willing to do so. That idea has some merit.

Seems to me it would highlight Gessell one year then highlight Clemmons the next. Right now I think neither one gets enough minutes to shine on their own. Get Fran on the phone and let him know about this.

 

[hawk-i bob]

some comments from post on this thread..

McCaffery doesn't think Moore will be a bust ... or he would not have offered him in the first place.

Every point guard wants to go somewhere where they have a chance to start from day one...if Moore selects another school other than Iowa...I don't think it would be because he is chicken.

Williams has potential to be a very good point guard for Iowa...

Redshirting Clemmons makes no sense....there is a season coming up...lets play that first.

 

[hawkfan1963]

Redshirting Clemmons makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
Disagree, I believe it has tons of merit to it, in the short and long term. Has to be decided before the year starts since Clemmons is a true senior.

 

[WORTHYWISH]

Clemmons is Not going to be redshirted, barring an injury, this year.

 

[hawk-i bob]

Redshirting Clemmons makes no sense.

Disagree, I believe it has tons of merit to it, in the short and long term. Has to be decided before the year starts since Clemmons is a true senior.[/QUOTE]

...I don't like redshirting a senior to be with 3 years of B1G experience...because I want to see the program moving forward (next year)...any injury to Gesell ...what are you going to do then...pull the redshirt? I'm sure Sapp would love playing less games his senior year.

You don't take away a strength (2 experienced PG's) based on the notion it would resolve an issue ...that none of us know will be an issue in the first place in a year from now.

tons of merit to redshirt Sapp???...I have this feeling #5 would not quite agree with that.

 

[regibson1]

Disagree, I believe it has tons of merit to it, in the short and long term. Has to be decided before the year starts since Clemmons is a true senior.

...I don't like redshirting a senior to be with 3 years of B1G experience...because I want to see the program moving forward (next year)...any injury to Gesell ...what are you going to do then...pull the redshirt? I'm sure Sapp would love playing less games his senior year.

You don't take away a strength (2 experienced PG's) based on the notion it would resolve an issue ...that none of us know will be an issue in the first place in a year from now.

tons of merit to redshirt Sapp???...I have this feeling #5 would not quite agree with that.[/QUOTE]

 

[unoHawkeye]

Dan, you seem to be contradicting yourself when you use Moore's offer list as a reason you don't really want him, then say that you completely trust Fran's judgement.

"First let me say that if McCaffery wants a kid, I want him. That goes for if we offer a Bohannon just as much as that we've offered and pursued Moore."

So you don't want Moore, who has been a priority for Fran for years, but would be okay if we took Bohannon, a guy that to me is pretty clearly a fallback recruit, because McCaffery wants him???

 

[unoHawkeye]

Moore more than likely won't even make his commitment until after the season starts or shortly beforehand (his official visits, remember?). If you redshirt Clemmons then you may as well pull Moore's offer

Edit: That's also not a very good look for future recruits. It could very easily be interpreted as Fran not really caring about the goals and priorities of individual players

 

[hawk-i bob]

Moore more than likely won't even make his commitment until after the season starts or shortly beforehand (his official visits, remember?). If you redshirt Clemmons then you may as well pull Moore's offer

spot on...

 

[regibson1]

I don't think that Charlie Moore is the be all, end all PG that people are making him out to be. I would love him to choose Iowa but if he chooses to go elsewhere then I think that Fran's B and C plan is just fine in Jordan Bohannon. Jordan may not be as quick as Moore but he is a shooter that has great range and will fit in well at Iowa. If Fran wants him, then I want him as well.

If we lose Moore, I don't believe that we have lost an elite guard. Loving Ulis was tough but this is not the same thing IMHO.

 

[DanL53]

Dan, you seem to be contradicting yourself when you use Moore's offer list as a reason you don't really want him, then say that you completely trust Fran's judgement.

"First let me say that if McCaffery wants a kid, I want him. That goes for if we offer a Bohannon just as much as that we've offered and pursued Moore."

So you don't want Moore, who has been a priority for Fran for years, but would be okay if we took Bohannon because McCaffery wants him??? If Moore doesn't come to Iowa, it will be because he doesn't want to.

Yeah, I know. It can be hard to distinguish between a fellow trusting a coaches decisions, and at the same time stating his own opinion.

Perhaps McCaffery sees Moore as a change of pace point guard that along with our other players would make up part of a great unit? And if Moore were to go for that? I think it would be pretty nice. But it sounds like a big part of Moore's eventual choice is going to come down to who guarantees him a starting job and plenty of minutes. Not only doesn't that sit well with me, but I don't think he'd be worth it.

As stated, it's just my opinion. What's the worst that can happen, I end up wrong? It won't be the first time.

 

[FSHawkeye87]

Dan, I like you, but I think you're just off here. You've used his offer list as not an impressive list, but you also don't seem to recognize that this is one of the strongest PG classes in the last 5 years. There are 4 PGs ranked in the ESPN top 15, and many of the higher programs like Michigan, Michigan State, UNC, Syracuse, Kentucky, etc. are going after the higher-ranked guys. Due to the strength of the PG class, this should have been one of Iowa's better shots at signing a top 100 PG. Additionally, I know you like Williams, but based off your offer list argument, he doesn't really fit the bill either, and before college he didn't really play against the level of competition Moore did.

I think Iowa will be fine if they don't land him, and I will be more than ecstatic with the class if Tyler Cook signs. Maybe Williams would be a serviceable PG, maybe not. But, Moore would be a huge difference maker, and him + Connor in the next few years would give defenses nightmares. Any fan should be happy if we land him.

 

[DanL53]

As to redshirting Clemmons.

imo. No. If for no other reason than both he and Gesell will likely be in the game at the same time at the end to protect our lead.

If no other player comes through at point this recruiting season. Not a one. I'll take Williams and Fleming and I've a feeling we won't skip a beat from Gesell and Clemmons.

 

[DanL53]

Dan, I like you, but I think you're just off here. You've used his offer list as not an impressive list, but you also don't seem to recognize that this is one of the strongest PG classes in the last 5 years. There are 4 PGs ranked in the ESPN top 15, and many of the higher programs like Michigan, Michigan State, UNC, Syracuse, Kentucky, etc. are going after the higher-ranked guys. Due to the strength of the PG class, this should have been one of Iowa's better shots at signing a top 100 PG. Additionally, I know you like Williams, but based off your offer list argument, he doesn't really fit the bill either, and before college he didn't really play against the level of competition Moore did.

I think Iowa will be fine if they don't land him, and I will be more than ecstatic with the class if Tyler Cook signs. Maybe Williams would be a serviceable PG, maybe not. But, Moore would be a huge difference maker, and him + Connor in the next few years would give defenses nightmares. Any fan should be happy if we land him.

I get that. Good post. I've probably got visions of outside shots being blocked or caught in midair by a 6'6"/6'5" guard court stuck in my head. I appreciate your kind words while disagreeing and won't mind it at all if I end up being wrong, if it means the Hawkeyes are better still.

 

[nu2u]

DanL, on a couple occasions now you have also made the point that Moore's offer list did not amount to much until he recently exploded in AAU summer ball. Couldn't the same thing be said about Kreiner? As far as I know, you're pretty confident about Kreiner's potential.

This may all be a mute point soon anyway. I get a pretty strong vibe that Moore has formed a real close bond with Cal coach Cuonzo Martin.

 

[DanL53]

DanL, on a couple occasions now you have also made the point that Moore's offer list did not amount to much until he recently exploded in AAU summer ball. Couldn't the same thing be said about Kreiner? As far as I know, you're pretty confident about Kreiner's potential.

Good point. Dang good point. Uh oh....... So the neat thing about Kriener is he blew up this summer and we got him, and it appears he's willing to come in and take coaching. I don't get the vibe that he'd transfer if he ends up in the second unit.

 

[hawkfan1963]

. If you redshirt Clemmons then you may as well pull Moore's offer

Remember I said IF Moore doesn't come here.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Remember I said IF Moore doesn't come here.

Unfortunately, we likely won't have the benefit of knowing whether or not Moore is coming to Iowa until (like I said) after the season starts

 

[DanL53]

Unfortunately, we likely won't have the benefit of knowing whether or not Moore is coming to Iowa until (like I said) after the season starts

Actually we'll have until November to decide if Clemmons would redshirt or not. He can even play in the exhibition games. So Moore will likely have announced by then. But I still don't think we should redshirt Clemmons.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I don't think that Charlie Moore is the be all, end all PG that people are making him out to be. I would love him to choose Iowa but if he chooses to go elsewhere then I think that Fran's B and C plan is just fine in Jordan Bohannon. Jordan may not be as quick as Moore but he is a shooter that has great range and will fit in well at Iowa. If Fran wants him, then I want him as well.

If we lose Moore, I don't believe that we have lost an elite guard. Loving Ulis was tough but this is not the same thing IMHO.

as far as Moore...you may be right you may be wrong...its all speculation (aka opinion) as to what impact Moore could have on any team of the school he decides on. We do know this...Fran has not offered Bohannon..he has offered Moore...seems to me that says something.

we all would love to see recruits do exactly what we want them to do...but it doesn't always work that way in the real world of college recruiting. If anyone gets frustrated with that...imagine how the coaches feel.

I believe Fran is holding off offering Bohannon because he feels Moore has better potential & feels he has a shot with the kid. I also don't think its impossible that Fran is working on other PG's that he feels are better than Bohannon. I do appreciate Bohannon being patient and have to believe that Fran has given him the exact scenario.

If Moore goes to another school...so be it.
If its Bohannon...so be it...I hope the kid comes in & does a bang up job....I'd be speculating if I said he would...or wouldn't for that matter.

 

[regibson1]

as far as Moore...you may be right you may be wrong...its all speculation (aka opinion) as to what impact Moore could have on any team of the school he decides on. We do know this...Fran has not offered Bohannon..he has offered Moore...seems to me that says something.

we all would love to see recruits do exactly what we want them to do...but it doesn't always work that way in the real world of college recruiting. If anyone gets frustrated with that...imagine how the coaches feel.

I believe Fran is holding off offering Bohannon because he feels Moore has better potential & feels he has a shot with the kid. I also don't think its impossible that Fran is working on other PG's that he feels are better than Bohannon. I do appreciate Bohannon being patient and have to believe that Fran has given him the exact scenario.

If Moore goes to another school...so be it.
If its Bohannon...so be it...I hope the kid comes in & does a bang up job....I'd be speculating if I said he would...or wouldn't for that matter.

 

[regibson1]

I can't argue with that. I believe that Fran indicated to Moore that he would wait for him to make his choice. Kriener was not offered either until it became apparent I believe that Fran was not going to get plan A. Bohannon is not plan A and won't get his offer until Moore has made his decision IMHO. However, Jordan is not chopped liver and has received a couple of good offers and interest from some other good schools. If Moore chooses to go elsewhere then I believe that Jordan will get the offer that he is hopefully looking for from Iowa and select us.

IMHO I think that he would be a great fit and would open up a great program at Linn-Mar to future recruits that we have previously lost to Wisconsin and NC.

 

[buttermypancakes]

A guy can pay point and still guard someone else. Let Hutton cover the other team's point guard.

This is ridiculous. If you watched any Oak Hill games when they were pressured Fleming wanted no part of the ball and when he got it, was very uncomfortable going more than one or two dribbles. This sounds like the idiots who thought Ogelsby would be a good PG because he took care of the ball. There is a big difference between making a good pass from the wing and trying to run a team with a much quicker player pressuring you. At least Fleming seems to know his limitations and has a high basketball IQ. I think Fleming will be great in his role but that definitely won't be at PG.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I can't argue with that. I believe that Fran indicated to Moore that he would wait for him to make his choice. Kriener was not offered either until it became apparent I believe that Fran was not going to get plan A. Bohannon is not plan A and won't get his offer until Moore has made his decision IMHO. However, Jordan is not chopped liver and has received a couple of good offers and interest from some other good schools. If Moore chooses to go elsewhere then I believe that Jordan will get the offer that he is hopefully looking for from Iowa and select us.

IMHO I think that he would be a great fit and would open up a great program at Linn-Mar to future recruits that we have previously lost to Wisconsin and NC.

You make a good point if its end up being Bohannon...never hurts to continue to open up those lines with Iowa high schools....which Fran & staff have done. Maybe we get the next Marcus Paige...

I'm not sure about Fran waiting til Moore decides...and I'm not sure the impact of Moore not committing to an official has had with the Iowa staff....because he made an unofficial a few months ago with his family...maybe its OK with Fran he doesn't make an official...

so it will be interesting how it all pans out...but for sure...because we are I O W A ... getting verbals early from Iowa high school kids is a lot easier (Pemsl, Kreiner, Wieskamp).

 

[freemanbrenner]

In 2016, PG is a question mark. Hopefully Christian Willaims can be that guy. There is some Marble in him. A combo guard. In 2017, Connor will be here so it should not be a problem. Not the "quick, get into the lane" PG but can really pass, make teammates better, shot is getting way better.. Similar to the Kendall Marshall/Kyle Anderson type of PG.

 

[jdv77]

Let's be honest, Dan. The real reason why you don't want Moore is because it would make revkev too happy.