Anyone else sick of the kids and their gun law crap?

[GarryO37]

I don't think arming teachers is a great idea. I'd bet that more harm than good comes from that. Where is the gun stored? How often does the armed teacher have to attend shooting practices? I do like the idea of an armed LEO at each school. That helped in the Maryland shooting. Would have helped at Parkland had the officer actually done his job.

I’ll address this as well.

Your concerns are valid. I don’t believe more harm than good would come of it. The idea behind teachers behind armed is kind of a backup should the LEO fail as in Parkland.

As far as storage the gun the teacher should have access to it at all times. So if the teacher leaves the classroom. The teacher secures it somewhere on him or her.

Teachers should have to qualify their ability to shoot annually before the school year starts. The teacher can practice on their own dime, but would be able to write this off on their taxes or receive a tax credit for up to a certain amount.

I would go a step further and ask for volunteers to put teachers through a shooting stress test. A school district could ask for veteran volunteers to put teachers through it. Personally, I would require that the stress test be administered by veterans who had a combat MOS. If the city of Cedar Rapids asked me, I would do it for free.

If this were implemented, what kind of decrease in school shootings would you need to see for you to deem it a success?

 

[srams21]

If you want to compare data, you need to compare all the data. How did Australia compare to the US before the restrictions? What was their trend 2 decades before the restrictions? What has the trend in the US done in the decades before and after Australia's restrictions? What else has come into play during this time? Has the mass murder rate changed or just the mass murder rate by firearm?

When you start answering these questions, you'll see Australia's restrictions really have had little if any affect.

I linked the article in that very post. It answers many of your questions.

 

[GarryO37]

That’s not enough and you know it

Really? If every parent stressed the value of human life, that wouldn’t be enough?

So just because you don’t think it’s enough, just forget about it?

If that’s what you believe, then you are part of the problem. Society is the problem, not guns.

 

[GarryO37]

Not to mention that it infringes on my god-given parental rights!

So you think it’s ok for parents to abuse their children and put them in the hospital because they have “god-given” parental rights?

In your eyes, it’s perfectly fine for a father to rape his daughter because of parental rights?

Great!

 

[GarryO37]

Your continued assault on logic is incredible. Where did I deny data? Maybe you don't understand what "correlation" and "causation" mean or how they relate to evaluating data? That could explain it I suppose...

I also simply provided you an alternative view and offered no assessment of its veracity. I literally said "for a different take." Your dismissal based on the forum shows your general lack of curiosity or willingness to find truth. Good luck to you. You've continued to offer nothing but empty words. You are what you purport to despise, but you don't realize it.

(As for your source, if you're really worried about vetting your sources of data:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/

View embedded media

https://thinkprogress.org/debunking-john-lott-5456e83cf326/

LOL. Thinkprogress.org. Jesus.

 

[Gimmered]

I linked the article in that very post. It answers many of your questions.

Actually it not only doesn't answer any of the questions, it is loaded with falsehoods, just scanning through it it makes the claim there has been no mass killings since. That is a lie.

I know very well what the answers are to the questions. I also know you won't learn for yourself, because you don't want the truth.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

So you think it’s ok for parents to abuse their children and put them in the hospital because they have “god-given” parental rights?

In your eyes, it’s perfectly fine for a father to rape his daughter because of parental rights?

Great!

Holy sh*t

 

[GarryO37]

Holy sh*t

Let him answer the question. He’s the one that believes in a parent’s right to do what they want with their children and that society stressing more importance on the value of human life is a violation of that right.

 

[srams21]

Your concerns are valid. I don’t believe more harm than good would come of it. The idea behind teachers behind armed is kind of a backup should the LEO fail as in Parkland.

As far as storage the gun the teacher should have access to it at all times. So if the teacher leaves the classroom. The teacher secures it somewhere on him or her.

Teachers should have to qualify their ability to shoot annually before the school year starts. The teacher can practice on their own dime, but would be able to write this off on their taxes or receive a tax credit for up to a certain amount.

I don't think there are many teachers out there who would be able to take out an active shooter with a handgun in an actual situation. I don't think a couple training classes is going to change that. Full time LEO prepare for situations like that their entire career and sometimes fail. See Parkland.

Are you saying the teacher should carry the gun on their person all day long? I can't imagine what might go wrong there.What if a rogue student tries to grab the gun? What if there is an accidental discharge? Much more harm than good imo.

I'd rather train specific LEO's for this type of role.

 

[srams21]

Actually it not only doesn't answer any of the questions, it is loaded with falsehoods, just scanning through it it makes the claim there has been no mass killings since. That is a lie.

I know very well what the answers are to the questions. I also know you won't learn for yourself, because you don't want the truth.

If it is loaded with falsehoods please point them out. I'm willing to learn. What I'm not willing to do is put up with pretentious snarky comments.

I'm willing to have a conversation. What mass shootings have happened in Australia since the date of that article?

 

[Hawkeye009]

So you think it’s ok for parents to abuse their children and put them in the hospital because they have “god-given” parental rights?

In your eyes, it’s perfectly fine for a father to rape his daughter because of parental rights?

Great!

*facepalm.gif

 

[GarryO37]

I don't think there are many teachers out there who would be able to take out an active shooter with a handgun in an actual situation. I don't think a couple training classes is going to change that. Full time LEO prepare for situations like that their entire career and sometimes fail. See Parkland.

Are you saying the teacher should carry the gun on their person all day long? I can't imagine what might go wrong there.What if a rogue student tries to grab the gun? What if there is an accidental discharge? Much more harm than good imo.

I'd rather train specific LEO's for this type of role.

I really disagree. The would definitely be able to stop an active shooter, especially several armed teachers.

Yes all day long. That is considered secure. You are thinking about a one off situation that would rarely, if ever, happen.

If there’s an accidental discharge, then obviously that teacher should be held liable and have their ability to carry in school taken away.

 

[GarryO37]

*facepalm.gif

I agree. Your comment was stupid, wasn’t it?

 

[Gimmered]

If it is loaded with falsehoods please point them out. I'm willing to learn. What I'm not willing to do is put up with pretentious snarky comments.

I'm willing to have a conversation. What mass shootings have happened in Australia since the date of that article?

The answer is easy to find, but what the opinion piece claimed was no more mass killings. There has actually been several, mostly by arson. It also claimed that suicide rate suddenly dropped, suicide by hanging rose at the same rate that suicide by gunshot fell. It also compares the homicide rate with the US as one fifth that of the US, but leaves out that it had a lower rate compared to the US before the restrictions. The homicide rate in Australia was falling at the the same trend before the restrictions as after, and has fallen much, much faster in the US. New Zealand's rate has followed Australia's both before and after the restrictions without any change.

 

[Hawkeye009]

I agree. Your comment was stupid, wasn’t it?

Sure, sport, that's it...

 

[GarryO37]

Sure, sport, that's it...

Yeah... That’s what I thought.

 

[srams21]

The answer is easy to find, but what the opinion piece claimed was no more mass killings. There has actually been several, mostly by arson.

I found there have been 2 shootings. Linked here

Arson wouldn't count as a shooting because it's not gun related. So, I think that in a perspective of whether the changes in gun laws has helped, one would need to look at mass shootings.

Looks like since the law was passed, there were a total of 2 shootings, one of which was a man who killed his family. While tragic, I'm not sure that's a mass shooting via the public variety.

 

[srams21]

It also compares the homicide rate with the US as one fifth that of the US, but leaves out that it had a lower rate compared to the US before the restrictions.

So why does the US have such a high gun violence rate compared with other countries? I'm sure there is much more to it than just guns but I think it plays a role. I don't think it's video games or cell phones (other countries have those).

What are your thoughts?

 

[Gimmered]

I found there have been 2 shootings. Linked here

Arson wouldn't count as a shooting because it's not gun related. So, I think that in a perspective of whether the changes in gun laws has helped, one would need to look at mass shootings.

Looks like since the law was passed, there were a total of 2 shootings, one of which was a man who killed his family. While tragic, I'm not sure that's a mass shooting via the public variety.

There have been several more than that actually. There were zero shooting in 2 years straight prior to Port Arthur. Australia like the UK enjoys a low homicide rate. The last time we we even close to them was around 1900.

The piece you linked specifically claimed there were no more mass killing since. This is a lie.

There are actually more guns in Australia now than before the restrictions, no State has ever completed the requirements, there isn't even background checks after the first purchase there. Things in Australia just aren't what some would want you to believe.

 

[Gimmered]

So why does the US have such a high gun violence rate compared with other countries? I'm sure there is much more to it than just guns but I think it plays a role. I don't think it's video games or cell phones (other countries have those).

What are your thoughts?

Of course guns play a big part in it. Did you know there's a lot more skiing accidents in Colorado than Nebraska? (Thank you @Lone Clone )

Why is there twice as many sexual assaults in Australia than in the US? Guns may play a part in that too.

Gun deaths in children include gang members, which is by far the leading victims. We have a crime problem, we have a drug problem, we have a gang problem. Guns play a part in all of this, they also offer protection from these.

My guess is suicides are also included in these stats. Suicide by gun is the leading method in the US, Suicide by hanging is in Australia, Japan has a much higher suicide rate than either country but has very few guns. What you are looking at is cherry picked stats that point to a predetermined conclusion.

 

[dirtypool]

I am not going to take the time to go through this thread tonite, so some things might have been touched on.

1) how many mass shooters have been outcasted and bullied in their schools? What are these students doing to stop bullying in their schools?

2) put pressure on doctors and the pharmaceutical companies for throwing kids on meds for things like hyperactivity when their issues could likely be contained with getting outside and playing/running. don't drug up your kids because you are too tired after your workday to interact with them.

3) weren't we talking about kids eating Tide Pods just a month or so prior to this? you don't have the sense to not eat Tide Pods, but you think people should take you seriously about guns

4) When I go drop off the baby momma check at the clerk of court office at the courthouse, i have to take my belt off, empty pockets, put my stuff to be scanned and go through metal detectors. I had to go through metal detectors at a MLB baseball game last year. banks have armed guards (is money more important than kids). TSA is a pain in the ass to get through at an airport. lets start doing these checks in our schools.

 

[Joes Place]

Hell, there was schooling shootings when I was in high school, and we didn't act like we knew what was best.

How about embracing the kids on the fringe instead of looking for the Gov to solve it for you?


I blame their parents. This generation is soft because of their parents. The crazy thing is, we didn't grow up soft.

No...but I am sick of little internet jockey douchebag pussies who take potshots at them from behind the safety of their keyboards.

Pussy.

 

[Joes Place]

Who is shooting up these schools?

People who shouldn't own guns.

 

[srams21]

There have been several more than that actually.

I'm sure you have a link, right?

 

[Joes Place]

So why does the US have such a high gun violence rate compared with other countries? I'm sure there is much more to it than just guns but I think it plays a role. I don't think it's video games or cell phones (other countries have those).

What are your thoughts?

None of those countries have 'free' citizens - they have no guns, and therefore have no rights, bro.....

 

[srams21]

Why is there twice as many sexual assaults in Australia than in the US? Guns may play a part in that too.

Did not know this. Surely you have a link.

Gun deaths in children include gang members, which is by far the leading victims. We have a crime problem, we have a drug problem, we have a gang problem. Guns play a part in all of this, they also offer protection from these.

So, why does America have such a gang problem then?

It seems like you are taking the "fake news" route here Gimmered. I'm not sure how these stats are that misleading. They are gun deaths per 100k teens and children.

Seems like you are misleading me when making accusations without any links to support your statements.

 

[Joes Place]

I'm sure you have a link, right?

(Frantic Google search.........
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[srams21]

None of those countries have 'free' citizens - they have no guns, and therefore have no right, bro.....

Oh that's right. Poor countries.

 

[Gimmered]

Did not know this. Surely you have a link.



So, why does America have such a gang problem then?

It seems like you are taking the "fake news" route here Gimmered. I'm not sure how these stats are that misleading. They are gun deaths per 100k teens and children.

Seems like you are misleading me when making accusations without any links to support your statements.

I have no agenda here, and have been nothing but civil. You chose to be a dick on your first exchange, even then I've kept it civil. So, here is a couple of links right off the bat. I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's ass here, I've spent a lot of time in the past looking deeper into the numbers, even though they are pretty irrelevant to the US.

http://extranosalley.com/violent-crime-rates-u-s-vs-australia/

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012...duce-violent-crime-ask-the-aussies-and-brits/

I never claimed anything to be misleading, only selective in what it is displaying. The US will have more gun deaths per capita without a doubt. We will have more deaths overall because of gang violence. These numbers add to the overall homicide rate without a doubt. I would love to see us attack this problem. I don't see restricting my rights as a solution to this problem, but that is what we are discussing here.

 

[Gimmered]

(Frantic Google search.........
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-01/australia-has-a-sexual-assault-problem-we-cant-ignore/8764220
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-suffer-physical-or-sexual-abuse-from-partner
https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2...-numbers-highest-in-seven-years-a_a_23018421/
http://www.casa.org.au/casa_pdf.php?document=statistics

 

[Joes Place]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-01/australia-has-a-sexual-assault-problem-we-cant-ignore/8764220
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-suffer-physical-or-sexual-abuse-from-partner
https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2...-numbers-highest-in-seven-years-a_a_23018421/
http://www.casa.org.au/casa_pdf.php?document=statistics

Those seem to, indeed, show Australia (like any populated country) has sexual assault problems and statistics. What I fail to see in those links is what you actually claimed.

<Resumes frantic Google search>

 

[Joes Place]

I have no agenda here, and have been nothing but civil. You chose to be a dick on your first exchange, even then I've kept it civil. So, here is a couple of links right off the bat. I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's ass here, I've spent a lot of time in the past looking deeper into the numbers, even though they are pretty irrelevant to the US.

http://extranosalley.com/violent-crime-rates-u-s-vs-australia/

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012...duce-violent-crime-ask-the-aussies-and-brits/

I never claimed anything to be misleading, only selective in what it is displaying. The US will have more gun deaths per capita without a doubt. We will have more deaths overall because of gang violence. These numbers add to the overall homicide rate without a doubt. I would love to see us attack this problem. I don't see restricting my rights as a solution to this problem, but that is what we are discussing here.

Linking obscure sites with dubious statistics appears to be an act of desperation (particularly when those statistics are being used to justify a gun debate point).

Here's a link which indicates sexual assault (which I think was the original claim) are quite comparable.
And, remember, many of these statistics are based on REPORTED incidents - statisiticians adjust many of these based on under-reporting, which is actually 'a thing' in many societies.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Rapes-per-million-people

 

[THE_DEVIL]

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

If every parent stressed the value of human life, that wouldn’t be enough?

No, but it would be great.

Unfortunately, it will never happen. We are a nation that loves it's Rambo movies and violent video games, and cheers for our wars, and gives special discounts to vets, and has special holidays to celebrate military actions, and on and on.

In other words, parents might stress the value of human life to their kids - and that would be great - but everywhere those kids turn, they get a different message.

How do you deal with that?

 

[GarryO37]

In other words, parents might stress the value of human life to their kids - and that would be great - but everywhere those kids turn, they get a different message.

You mean abortion?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

LOL. Thinkprogress.org. Jesus.

It's fun to see the right dismissing press groups by name rather than content.

They clearly don't understand how rational thought works.

A group like Fox has lost credibility by years of lying and distortion. So dismissing them by name is based on mountains of evidence that they are bad sources. The only reason to dismiss Think Progress is because you don't like what they say. And even that may not be true. It's just as likely that you haven't even read much from TP but you have been told by your winger information sources to reject them.

Watch how some of us lefties do it right here on HROT. Mos tof the time we point out elements of the right-wing reports that are wrong. And then we dismiss them as bad sources. See the difference?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

You mean abortion?

Good grief. I took you off ignore to see if you might want to engage in a reasonable conversation.

I should have known better.

 

[GarryO37]

Good grief. I took you off ignore to see if you might want to engage in a reasonable conversation.

I should have known better.

You're not engaging in a reasonable discussion either. You were trying to blame movies and soldiers.

 

[GarryO37]

It's fun to see the right dismissing press groups by name rather than content.

They clearly don't understand how rational thought works.

A group like Fox has lost credibility by years of lying and distortion. So dismissing them by name is based on mountains of evidence that they are bad sources. The only reason to dismiss Think Progress is because you don't like what they say. And even that may not be true. It's just as likely that you haven't even read much from TP but you have been told by your winger information sources to reject them.

Watch how some of us lefties do it right here on HROT. Mos tof the time we point out elements of the right-wing reports that are wrong. And then we dismiss them as bad sources. See the difference?

Yeah... Except the article didn't discredit this specific research. It was trying to discredit the research by discrediting the founder of the CPRC.

 

[E.RogerCoswell]

I'm bored, let's play this game.



[1] This assertion is just asinine. Kids and liberals don't care if kids are killed by guns. That is just stupid. Maybe people disagree about the cause, but your statement is just juvenile.

[2] This doesn't logically relate to [1] as stated. The "because" might be kids and liberals "ignoring the data," but it certainly isn't the fact of data. Also, you don't provide the data and you assume a conclusion. You accomplish nothing with this. (Like what you are critiquing.)

[3] How is [2] kind of like [3]? That makes no sense. Also, how is this relevant to the discussion? You make no actual claim. It is a random sentence without any demonstrated relationship to the subject matter.

[4] You've asserted a correlation without showing causation or any underlying data or discussion of data. Again, you've said nothing of any import.

Should we do your other paragraphs?

This is my favorite post in a long time. Well done, 009.