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Ben Carson perfectly explains the Republican position on guns

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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The modern presidential campaign is essentially an endless series of arguments that begin with “He said what???“, as one candidate after another gets his chance to be pilloried for something he said, with feigned outrage and cries of “Gaffe!” reverberating throughout the land. In this week’s installment, Ben Carson is in the hot seat for comments he made about the shooting at Umpqua Community College in Oregon. But the real question is, why is everyone so upset with Carson? What he said is nothing more than the logical outgrowth of what nearly every Republican candidate and officeholder believes about guns. You can say he’s wrong, but you can’t say that his views should be any kind of surprise.

There were two things that Carson said that drew condemnation, one on television and one on his Facebook page:

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson attracted criticism Tuesday for appearing to suggest in an interview that the victims of last week’s tragic school shooting in Oregon should have acted more forcefully to prevent the attack.

“I would not just stand there and let him shoot me,” Carson said on “Fox and Friends” Tuesday morning. “I would say, ‘Hey guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can’t get us all.'” …

Carson on Monday night took to Facebook to denounce calls for increased gun regulation in the wake of another mass shooting, saying that the problem is not caused by Second Amendment protections and accusing gun-control advocates of politicizing the tragedy.

“As a Doctor, I spent many a night pulling bullets out of bodies,” he wrote. “There is no doubt that this senseless violence is breathtaking – but I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away.”

Let’s take these one at a time. Was it unspeakably insulting to the victims of the Oregon shooting and their families to suggest that they were killed or injured because they didn’t have the physical courage and quick thinking that a hero like Carson would have displayed had he been in their shoes? Of course. And is it an absurd fantasy that in the instant he was confronted by a gunman, Carson would in the space of seconds organize a bunch of terrified strangers to mount an assault on someone ready to kill them? You bet it is.

But this fantasy is nothing unusual at all. In fact, it lies at the heart of much of the efforts Republicans have made at the behest of the National Rifle Association in recent years to change state laws on guns. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” says the NRA, and Republicans believe it, too. So they push for laws to allow guns to be brought into as many places as possible — schools, government buildings, churches, anywhere and everywhere. They advocate “stand your ground” laws that encourage people to use guns to settle arguments. They seek both open-carry and concealed-carry laws on a “shall issue” basis (meaning the government presumes that you should get the license unless it can prove you fall into certain categories of offenders) to put guns in as many hands as possible.

All of this is driven by the fantasy of the gun owner as action hero. Sure, the world may see you as just a middle-age middle manager with an expanding gut and a retreating hairline, but at any moment you could be transformed into Jack Bauer! Woe be to the the al-Qaeda commando team or deranged shooter who comes to your town, because you’ll be ready for ’em! The world is divided into the sheep who cower while waiting to be killed, and those possessed of the courage and firepower to stand up at those life-and-death moments. This is what the gun industry, the NRA and the Republican Party encourage people to believe. So, of course, Ben Carson believes it, too.

As for Carson’s assertion that “I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away,” that, too, is the natural outgrowth of the contemporary Republican position on guns.

Think for a moment about how we reorganized our government, our airline industry and entire swaths of our society, spending hundreds of billions of dollars, creating a new apparatus of surveillance, all because nearly 3,000 people were killed on Sept. 11, 2001. We didn’t like spending all that money, creating all that fear, compromising our privacy and constitutional principles and making everybody take off their shoes at the airport, but it was a price we had to pay because of those 3,000 deaths, right?

It takes about a month — every month, month after month — for that many Americans to be killed with guns. Just imagine how we would have reacted to an attack 10 or 11 times the scale of 9/11, which is but a single year of the death toll guns place on our country. In 2013, the latest year for which the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has released data, 11,208 Americans were murdered with guns, and 505 Americans died due to accidental firearm discharge. Another 21,175 Americans killed themselves with guns (having a gun in the home dramatically increases one’s risk of suicide), for a total of 32,888 gun deaths.

But unlike their position on terrorism, the position that the entire Republican Party now adopts — not necessarily all its voters, but virtually all its elected representatives — is that a toll that size is simply not meaningful enough to justify any action to not even restrict, but merely to inconvenience Americans’ ability to own as many guns as they want and to get them as easily as they want. Presumably there would be some level of carnage that would make even Republicans sign on to gun restrictions — say if a million Americans every year were being shot down, or 5 million or 10 million. But 33,000 a year? Not a big enough deal.

I don’t know if the thought he describes actually ran through Ben Carson’s head when he was on his E.R. rotation — I doubt that the young doctor said to himself, “Wow, that’s a tragedy that we saw three people shot to death this week, but it sure would be a bigger tragedy if people had to get background checks at gun shows” — but it is indeed the position of his party. The fact that it sounds crazy when he speaks it out loud doesn’t mean it’s not what they believe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...tly-explains-the-republican-position-on-guns/
 
He's not exactly wrong. There are documented reports of people rushing a gunman to stop a mass shooting. It's happened many times, and just happened recently.

Do you ever post anything but opinion pieces?

Government or the NRA don't know which probably needs to introduce a class on mass rushing mass murderers don't you think? It has gotten out of hand.
 
As I see it, there are really only two answers to this problem. First, repeal the second amendment. This is probably not possible. The only other thing that might help, is to make open to background checks people's mental history in medical records. I'm not sure I trust our government to safeguard the information adequately. Everything else in the discussion is weak sauce.
 
As I see it, there are really only two answers to this problem. First, repeal the second amendment. This is probably not possible. The only other thing that might help, is to make open to background checks people's mental history in medical records. I'm not sure I trust our government to safeguard the information adequately. Everything else in the discussion is weak sauce.


So those are the only solutions you can think of, where you might think it would actually work....but neither are realistic........then you say any other suggestions or solutions are weak?

If you truly think that.....you're not listening or reading what people are suggesting.
 
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The modern presidential campaign is essentially an endless series of arguments that begin with “He said what???“, as one candidate after another gets his chance to be pilloried for something he said, with feigned outrage and cries of “Gaffe!” reverberating throughout the land. In this week’s installment, Ben Carson is in the hot seat for comments he made about the shooting at Umpqua Community College in Oregon. But the real question is, why is everyone so upset with Carson? What he said is nothing more than the logical outgrowth of what nearly every Republican candidate and officeholder believes about guns. You can say he’s wrong, but you can’t say that his views should be any kind of surprise.

There were two things that Carson said that drew condemnation, one on television and one on his Facebook page:

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson attracted criticism Tuesday for appearing to suggest in an interview that the victims of last week’s tragic school shooting in Oregon should have acted more forcefully to prevent the attack.

“I would not just stand there and let him shoot me,” Carson said on “Fox and Friends” Tuesday morning. “I would say, ‘Hey guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can’t get us all.'” …

Carson on Monday night took to Facebook to denounce calls for increased gun regulation in the wake of another mass shooting, saying that the problem is not caused by Second Amendment protections and accusing gun-control advocates of politicizing the tragedy.

“As a Doctor, I spent many a night pulling bullets out of bodies,” he wrote. “There is no doubt that this senseless violence is breathtaking – but I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away.”

Let’s take these one at a time. Was it unspeakably insulting to the victims of the Oregon shooting and their families to suggest that they were killed or injured because they didn’t have the physical courage and quick thinking that a hero like Carson would have displayed had he been in their shoes? Of course. And is it an absurd fantasy that in the instant he was confronted by a gunman, Carson would in the space of seconds organize a bunch of terrified strangers to mount an assault on someone ready to kill them? You bet it is.

But this fantasy is nothing unusual at all. In fact, it lies at the heart of much of the efforts Republicans have made at the behest of the National Rifle Association in recent years to change state laws on guns. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” says the NRA, and Republicans believe it, too. So they push for laws to allow guns to be brought into as many places as possible — schools, government buildings, churches, anywhere and everywhere. They advocate “stand your ground” laws that encourage people to use guns to settle arguments. They seek both open-carry and concealed-carry laws on a “shall issue” basis (meaning the government presumes that you should get the license unless it can prove you fall into certain categories of offenders) to put guns in as many hands as possible.

All of this is driven by the fantasy of the gun owner as action hero. Sure, the world may see you as just a middle-age middle manager with an expanding gut and a retreating hairline, but at any moment you could be transformed into Jack Bauer! Woe be to the the al-Qaeda commando team or deranged shooter who comes to your town, because you’ll be ready for ’em! The world is divided into the sheep who cower while waiting to be killed, and those possessed of the courage and firepower to stand up at those life-and-death moments. This is what the gun industry, the NRA and the Republican Party encourage people to believe. So, of course, Ben Carson believes it, too.

As for Carson’s assertion that “I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away,” that, too, is the natural outgrowth of the contemporary Republican position on guns.

Think for a moment about how we reorganized our government, our airline industry and entire swaths of our society, spending hundreds of billions of dollars, creating a new apparatus of surveillance, all because nearly 3,000 people were killed on Sept. 11, 2001. We didn’t like spending all that money, creating all that fear, compromising our privacy and constitutional principles and making everybody take off their shoes at the airport, but it was a price we had to pay because of those 3,000 deaths, right?

It takes about a month — every month, month after month — for that many Americans to be killed with guns. Just imagine how we would have reacted to an attack 10 or 11 times the scale of 9/11, which is but a single year of the death toll guns place on our country. In 2013, the latest year for which the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has released data, 11,208 Americans were murdered with guns, and 505 Americans died due to accidental firearm discharge. Another 21,175 Americans killed themselves with guns (having a gun in the home dramatically increases one’s risk of suicide), for a total of 32,888 gun deaths.

But unlike their position on terrorism, the position that the entire Republican Party now adopts — not necessarily all its voters, but virtually all its elected representatives — is that a toll that size is simply not meaningful enough to justify any action to not even restrict, but merely to inconvenience Americans’ ability to own as many guns as they want and to get them as easily as they want. Presumably there would be some level of carnage that would make even Republicans sign on to gun restrictions — say if a million Americans every year were being shot down, or 5 million or 10 million. But 33,000 a year? Not a big enough deal.

I don’t know if the thought he describes actually ran through Ben Carson’s head when he was on his E.R. rotation — I doubt that the young doctor said to himself, “Wow, that’s a tragedy that we saw three people shot to death this week, but it sure would be a bigger tragedy if people had to get background checks at gun shows” — but it is indeed the position of his party. The fact that it sounds crazy when he speaks it out loud doesn’t mean it’s not what they believe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...tly-explains-the-republican-position-on-guns/

So what is your new magic law that is going to bring us Nirvana?
 
Government or the NRA don't know which probably needs to introduce a class on mass rushing mass murderers don't you think? It has gotten out of hand.


Self preservation is something that can't be taught. Do you want to TRY to live? OR are you going to sit and take it like a helpless slug?
I might die in the process, but I'm going down swinging over being slaughtered.
 
As I see it, there are really only two answers to this problem. First, repeal the second amendment. This is probably not possible. The only other thing that might help, is to make open to background checks people's mental history in medical records. I'm not sure I trust our government to safeguard the information adequately. Everything else in the discussion is weak sauce.

There is another option. Warning - this one is going to be hard to swallow. Just continue to live with it, like we do with traffic deaths.

I am pretty sure the answer is not to take guns away from good citizens and violate or repeal the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.

More people die in traffic accidents each week in this country than the sum of these mass murder incidents combined over the last 5 years. Ask any of their remaining family members if their loss is any less tragic than the families of young, innocent people being hunted down like animals in a classroom by a nutbag. There is no difference. Tragedy is tragedy.

One could chalk it up to the abrasions of 300+ million people interacting with each other in a society filled with violent images and messages everywhere we go.
 
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There is another option. Warning - this one is going to be hard to swallow. Just continue to live with it, like we do with traffic deaths.

I am pretty sure the answer is not to take guns away from good citizens and violate or repeal the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.

More people die in traffic accidents each week in this country than the sum of these mass murder incidents combined over the last 5 years. Ask any of their remaining family members if their loss is any less tragic than the families of young, innocent people being hunted down like animals in a classroom by a nutbag. There is no difference. Tragedy is tragedy.

One could chalk it up to the abrasions of 300+ million people interacting with each other in a society filled with violent images and messages everywhere we go.

I think you are mostly correct in that these events will reoccur despite our best efforts. However, we as a society recognize that driving a car represents a danger to the individual and others. We regulate safety standards for vehicles, require seatbelts, headlights, airbags, have traffic laws and require drivers be trained in order to obtain a license, etc. If we are willing to regulate driving for safety reasons than we should also be willing to regulate gun ownership. To me that may require taking guns away from good citizens or at least restricting the access good citizens have to guns. It may not eliminate these mass slaughters but it may reduce them.
 
He's not exactly wrong. There are documented reports of people rushing a gunman to stop a mass shooting. It's happened many times, and just happened recently.

Do you ever post anything but opinion pieces?

This is correct, but getting a large group of people to rush the gunman at the same time would be impossible. It would be hard to coordinate under fire and quite simply people are not drones. Most would react in a panic to try to exit a building rather then join a part of a group to charge a gunman.
 
Self preservation is something that can't be taught. Do you want to TRY to live? OR are you going to sit and take it like a helpless slug?
I might die in the process, but I'm going down swinging over being slaughtered.
Speaking from a teachers point of view. This is something we have been taught in our training on this topic. It is something that we are supposed to tell our students. When the sh!t hits the fan and you are out of options you find whatever weapon you can and you fight. I would say that's pretty logical in today's day and age.
 
This is correct, but getting a large group of people to rush the gunman at the same time would be impossible. It would be hard to coordinate under fire and quite simply people are not drones. Most would react in a panic to try to exit a building rather then join a part of a group to charge a gunman.


All it takes is 2-4 coming from different angles. Unless you're 25ft or more away from the gunman....he simply does not have enough time to be accurate or get more than a shot or two off, when a normal person can close that gap in less than 3 seconds.
 
Speaking from a teachers point of view. This is something we have been taught in our training on this topic. It is something that we are supposed to tell our students. When the sh!t hits the fan and you are out of options you find whatever weapon you can and you fight. I would say that's pretty logical in today's day and age.


I teach rescue diving, which in it's essence is all about self preservation. I do agree that techniques "can" be taught, and are......but you can teach and teach and teach.......the act of self preservation has to come from within. It has to be second nature. You have to want to live, otherwise you will freeze and most likely not make it out.
 
“Wow, that’s a tragedy that we saw three people shot to death this week, but it sure would be a bigger tragedy if people had to get background checks at gun shows” ... is indeed the position of [the GOP]. The fact that it sounds crazy ... doesn’t mean it’s not what they believe.
 
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“Wow, that’s a tragedy that we saw three people shot to death this week, but it sure would be a bigger tragedy if people had to get background checks at gun shows” ... is indeed the position of [the GOP]. The fact that it sounds crazy ... doesn’t mean it’s not what they believe.


That's an opinion. Not a fact.
 
Speaking from a teachers point of view. This is something we have been taught in our training on this topic. It is something that we are supposed to tell our students. When the sh!t hits the fan and you are out of options you find whatever weapon you can and you fight. I would say that's pretty logical in today's day and age.
Wow! We are actually telling our kids this?

If this is actually necessary, WTF does that say about the kind of country we have become?

I'm a well-armed liberal and I like my guns. But if we have become a society where we have to instruct school children on using violence because armed terrorism in schools is a high enough probability to require such instructions, then we need to ban guns and lock away all who even skirt the edge of that ban.

This should not be a hard choice. That's a psychologically damaging environment for children.

When we taught kids to duck and cover in response to possible nuclear Armageddon, that was also psychologically damaging. But the difference is that we didn't have control over Soviet nukes. This is a domestic problem and we CAN control it.
 
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Wow! We are actually telling our kids this?

If this is actually necessary, WTF does that say about the kind of country we have become?

I'm a well-armed liberal and I like my guns. But if we have become a society where we have to instruct school children on using violence because armed terrorism in schools is a high enough probability to require such instructions, then we need to ban guns and lock away all who even skirt the edge of that ban.

This should not be a hard choice. That's a psychologically damaging environment for children.

When we taught kids to duck and cover in response to possible nuclear Armageddon, that was also psychologically damaging. But the difference is that we didn't have control over Soviet nukes. This is a domestic problem and we CAN control it.


You think that by teaching them to be passive and let happen what happens is doing them any favors? You think it's horrific to teach kids how think and fight their way out of a potentially deadly situation? And it's NOT commonplace...although the media wishes you to feel that way so they can push the narrative set by the White House.

Duck and cover was psychologically damaging? Can we get a link to this study?

Once again you push for the banning of weapons. You can say all you want about being an owner, your beliefs and intentions are well documented here.
 
I teach rescue diving, which in it's essence is all about self preservation. I do agree that techniques "can" be taught, and are......but you can teach and teach and teach.......the act of self preservation has to come from within. It has to be second nature. You have to want to live, otherwise you will freeze and most likely not make it out.
I'm grabbing a fire extinguisher off the wall and discharging it at the attacker, or throwing it, throwing a chair at the attacker, and if there's a flag pole in the room I would throw it like a spear at the attacker. Whatever it takes to get out of the room alive.
 
I'm grabbing a fire extinguisher off the wall and discharging it at the attacker, or throwing it, throwing a chair at the attacker, and if there's a flag pole in the room I would throw it like a spear at the attacker. Whatever it takes to get out of the room alive.
That's some of the stuff we talk about. It's the reality of the world we live in.
 
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I think you are mostly correct in that these events will reoccur despite our best efforts. However, we as a society recognize that driving a car represents a danger to the individual and others. We regulate safety standards for vehicles, require seatbelts, headlights, airbags, have traffic laws and require drivers be trained in order to obtain a license, etc. If we are willing to regulate driving for safety reasons than we should also be willing to regulate gun ownership. To me that may require taking guns away from good citizens or at least restricting the access good citizens have to guns. It may not eliminate these mass slaughters but it may reduce them.

We all ready do that.

Took me over 6 months and a background check to get my gun permit. And that's a constitutionally protected right.

I can run over to the DMV and get my license renewed in an hour. And I'm far, far more likely to kill someone with my car than my gun
 
We all ready do that.

Took me over 6 months and a background check to get my gun permit. And that's a constitutionally protected right.

I can run over to the DMV and get my license renewed in an hour. And I'm far, far more likely to kill someone with my car than my gun
We weigh the obvious benefits of having a car in our society against the harm and come up with what we tend to think are suitable restrictions.

It's hard to find obvious benefits of owning guns against which to balance the harm.

Which tends to suggest it's appropriate to have greater restrictions on guns.
 
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When I was younger I, along with about five others, was robbed at gun point [ four robbers with two handguns, two sawed off shotguns and a lot of mother fvcker this and mother fvcker that ]. It was in a small bar and there was no way out. No one was shot but you don't have any idea what going to happen when it's in progress.

I can tell you this, everyone reacted differently. I can't stress this enough. It's great to have a plan, but....... A friend of mine actually hid behind a woman. Some were in hysterics, some weren't. Absolutely unpredictable.

[Note: Nobody got convicted because us witnesses all blew the linup. Later I met one of the guys who robbed me. I asked for my $1.50 back. He laughed. True story.]
 
When I was younger I, along with about five others, was robbed at gun point [ four robbers with two handguns, two sawed off shotguns and a lot of mother fvcker this and mother fvcker that ]. It was in a small bar and there was no way out. No one was shot but you don't have any idea what going to happen when it's in progress.

I can tell you this, everyone reacted differently. I can't stress this enough. It's great to have a plan, but....... A friend of mine actually hid behind a woman. Some were in hysterics, some weren't. Absolutely unpredictable.

[Note: Nobody got convicted because us witnesses all blew the linup. Later I met one of the guys who robbed me. I asked for my $1.50 back. He laughed. True story.]


You should have kicked you're friend's ass afterward for shielding himself behind a woman.
 
Dr. Carson is obviously a very good surgeon, but the guy has no clue in a lot of important areas to be President.

Here is part of an interview about the debt ceiling.

Kai Ryssdal: Dr. Carson, good to have you with us.

Ben Carson: Good to be here….

Ryssdal: As you know, Treasury Secretary Lew has come out in the last couple of days and said, "We're gonna run out of money, we're gonna run out of borrowing authority, on the fifth of November." Should the Congress then and the president not raise the debt limit? Should we default on our debt?

Carson: Let me put it this way: if I were the president, I would not sign an increased budget.

Ryssdal: To be clear, it's increasing the debt limit, not the budget, but I want to make sure I understand you. You'd let the United States default rather than raise the debt limit.

Carson: No, I would provide the kind of leadership that says, "Get on the stick guys, and stop messing around, and cut where you need to cut, because we're not raising any spending limits, period."

Ryssdal: I'm gonna try one more time, sir. This is debt that's already obligated. Would you not favor increasing the debt limit to pay the debts already incurred?

Carson: What I'm saying is what we have to do is restructure the way that we create debt.
 
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When I was younger I, along with about five others, was robbed at gun point [ four robbers with two handguns, two sawed off shotguns and a lot of mother fvcker this and mother fvcker that ]. It was in a small bar and there was no way out. No one was shot but you don't have any idea what going to happen when it's in progress.

I can tell you this, everyone reacted differently. I can't stress this enough. It's great to have a plan, but....... A friend of mine actually hid behind a woman. Some were in hysterics, some weren't. Absolutely unpredictable.

[Note: Nobody got convicted because us witnesses all blew the linup. Later I met one of the guys who robbed me. I asked for my $1.50 back. He laughed. True story.]
I agree with what you're saying in most cases. But I think in the world we live in today if someone is shooting at a school they are there with the purpose to kill and in all likelihood die.
Knowing that I think it's easier (at least for the older kids) to understand: get away first, and in a last resort, fight. Will everyone do that, no, but I think we are getting closer to that type of mentality.
 
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There is another option. Warning - this one is going to be hard to swallow. Just continue to live with it, like we do with traffic deaths.

I am pretty sure the answer is not to take guns away from good citizens and violate or repeal the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.

More people die in traffic accidents each week in this country than the sum of these mass murder incidents combined over the last 5 years. Ask any of their remaining family members if their loss is any less tragic than the families of young, innocent people being hunted down like animals in a classroom by a nutbag. There is no difference. Tragedy is tragedy.

One could chalk it up to the abrasions of 300+ million people interacting with each other in a society filled with violent images and messages everywhere we go.

Yes, and we have lot's of laws to try to reduce those numbers don't we? You have to have training before you can get a license. Then you need insurance and have to register your vehicles. And you need to qualify for different types of licenses for different types of vehicles. Do we have anything similar for weapons?
 
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