Bill Self HOF
- Thread starter Toupee Bill
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So 12 Sweet 16s, 9 Elite Eights (with 3 different programs (Tulsa, Illinois, and Kansas) in 20 years), 2 Championship games and 1 National Title Since 1997/98 is not up to your standard? I wish Iowa had a coach that could get past the 1st weekend of the NCAA Tournament.
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/vahe-gregorian/article140689393.html
"With 623 career wins, 13 straight Big 12 titles, 43 NCAA Tournament victories, a ninth Elite Eight appearance and a national championship on his ledger, Kansas coach Bill Self is destined to be inducted in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame."
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/vahe-gregorian/article140689393.html
"With 623 career wins, 13 straight Big 12 titles, 43 NCAA Tournament victories, a ninth Elite Eight appearance and a national championship on his ledger, Kansas coach Bill Self is destined to be inducted in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame."
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Not arguing that Self is a great coach, and his record is very good, but it does need to be kept in context. Most of that tourney record is as the coach at Kansas. They are one of the top 4 or 5 teams consistantly year in and year out. As such they are an average 1.8 seed in the tourney. Any good coach should get a 1.8 seed out of the first weekend without hardly breaking a sweat, something Self has failed to do on several occasions. I wouldn't say that anyone here in KU country is calling for his head, but the grumbling has started. The Monday after they lost its all that was on 810 am the local sports radio, and on Sunday it was on the front page of the KC Star, and it was the writers comment that Self's tourney record is spotty at best. While Hawk fans would be thrilled with that kind of tourney record, its probably less than what KU expects given their place in the college game.
If I were a Jayhawk fan I'd be ready to move on. I would consider his tourney record unacceptable.
Those Jayhawk fans are tough. Wouldn't surprise me if they had a thread named "Bill Self IHOP".
This. Kansas, much like North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, and the other blue bloods in college basketball, might as well have Ronald McDonald as their team mascot. Only his predecessor, the "Great" Roy Williams, got less from more...
Bill Self is a great coach who belongs in the Hall of
Fame while he is living. Too often a coach is overlooked
and not remembered until 10 years after his funeral.
Coach Self can recruit, relate to his players, and win
games. Kansas was fortunate to get a guy like him
to insure stability and recognition for the basketball
program.
Fame while he is living. Too often a coach is overlooked
and not remembered until 10 years after his funeral.
Coach Self can recruit, relate to his players, and win
games. Kansas was fortunate to get a guy like him
to insure stability and recognition for the basketball
program.
You would expect a team that has won what? 13? straight championships in such a prestigious conference as the the Big 12 would have a little better NCAA tournament record.
Not only that he built the last great team at Illinois. The team Bruce Weber took to the final game was stacked and was all Self's recruits. Illinois hasn't been close to back to that level since.
As I said, I wouldn't argue that he's a very good coach, but lets break your statement down.
1). Self can recruit. What decent coach wouldn't be able to recruit to KU?
2). Relate to his players. Maybe he needs to look at that relationship, since 8 of his players were involved in police reports this year.
3). Win games. Yep most definetly, but this topic is specifically about the tourney, where his record isn't nearly as sterling.
4). KU was fortunate to get a guy like him to ensure stability and recognition for the program. Seriously? This is KU basketball. Would you really expect that they would have to hire some clown? Whenever Self leaves, they'll hire one of the best coaches in all of college or pro basketball. This is not in question. When exactly has KU not had recognition in the college game?
True but that says more to who they've hired since then. Weber, and Groce? I mean WOW! Just a poor job by the AD.
Self definitely has an abnormal amount of early tournament losses for someone who is consistently fielding as good of squads as he is. I couldn't believe that he only has 2 final four appearances, that seems crazy. They are frequently the top overall seed or at least a number 1. Tom Izzo I'd say is a coach of comparable stature, he has the same number of national titles but has 7 final fours.
Part of the reason they are that high of seed all the time is because of superior coaching even when they don't have his best teams he gets them to a #1 seed.
Before Self they hadn't had a title since '88. There are always fans who bitch no matter where you are or what you do. There are Duke fans mad at K, there are Kentucky fans mad at Cal. Doesn't really mean much because most fans are stupid.
1) I would generally agree. Self has been able to recruit anywhere he has been. No different at Kansas. Since Kansas has had only 2 coaches in the last 25+ years (Roy Williams and Self), they've been rolling in great players all the time. This won't be tested if/when they would bring in a guy who wasn't a great recruiter (although it's hard to imagine KU hiring someone who couldn't recruit)
2) In the world of big-time athletics, players running afoul of the law doesn't mean the coach can't relate to his players. If anything, the top-level players will see Self standing up for his guys as a positive. I'm not arguing whether this is the right thing to do, just the way it's seen.
3) Win games. Record in the tourney is the only shortcoming. Time will tell if this is how he is viewed long term. If he had won just 1 or 2 of the Elite 8 games he has lost, he would be viewed differently Big if, of course.
4) Yes, KU is a great job. But when Larry Brown left after the NCAA title, KU hired an assistant coach from North Carolina. Many people questioned that at that time, but KU had to deal with 1 season of NCAA trouble left over from Brown. I do think Self is a very, very good coach (especially the recruiting part, which guarantees continued success).
Most of the KU fan base recognizes Self for what he is: a very, very good coach who has likely underperformed in the tournament. Winning the 13 straight conference titles in a P5 conference (and counting) is something that will likely last for a long, long time.
Well his recruiting is weak compared to Cal and Coach K. Those two dominate the 5 stars. Self recruits well but is not elite like K and Cal. There are plenty of other top school that recruit as well as Self and some better. Of course some of those schools have an advantage in terms of location. There aren't many elite recruits in the midwest. Look at their starters compared to UNC, Duke and Kentucky in terms of recruiting rankings. If you look at the team recruiting rankings they aren't usually in the top group. More often than not they aren't in the top ten in class rankings let alone top 5.
Hes a surefire HOF coach by any measure, but I agree with poster who said he would he ready to move on if a Kansas fan.
I can tell you that the fans in KU country would trade a few of those conf titles for a couple more shots in the final four. I'm not arguing that Self is worthy of being in the HOF. What he's done in a major conference is amazing, and who knows how long this run may last. Just think if he doesn't tack on a couple more title runs, even the fans in the Phog will grow restless for more.
Pray tell - who could Kansas get as a coach that would be better than Self. Is Coach K leaving Duke? Maybe that slime Ball Cal? Self is a top 5 coach at a top 5 program. Who are the New England Patriots going to replace Belecheck (spell) with? Vince Lombardi?
The other thing that comes into play in the tourney is this little thing called LUCK. Does anyone think we'll see South Carolina back in the FF next year? Match ups etc. Kansas was also a very Small team. And as some of the previous posters mentioned - they get no where near the recruits that Duke and KY get.
The other thing that comes into play in the tourney is this little thing called LUCK. Does anyone think we'll see South Carolina back in the FF next year? Match ups etc. Kansas was also a very Small team. And as some of the previous posters mentioned - they get no where near the recruits that Duke and KY get.
I'll address your questions. First, as I've stated many times, I'd concur that Self is a top five coach, but your kidding yourself if you don't think whoever they hire,(Self won't be there for ever), won't be a great coach as well, partly because of what he'll have to work with. Second, your telling me a team thats won 13 straight conf titles and is a number one seed needs to be lucky to advance in the tourney. We're not talking about Iowa or Ksu, or Minnesota here. You can't have it both ways here. If KU is all that and a bag of chips and Self is a HOF coach, he shouldn't need luck to get into the elite level games, like a final four, or the Finals. Remember were not talking about this year, or just this roster. Were talking about his 14 years at KU, and the fact that as an average 1.8 seed many people think they've under achieved.
1. Go ask Kentucky, UNC, UCLA, and Indiana that it doesn't matter who you hire.
2. Yes. At some point the teams are pretty even, especially on a neutral court. It takes a certain amount of luck usually to make it to the championship game unless you just crush everyone because teams usually have close games along the way. And by luck, it means, maybe an open 3 point shooter who is lights out shooter on the other team misses a 3. Maybe a call goes your way etc. These matter in late game situations. That is why Ken Pom factors in luck in the ratings. There was some luck involved in UNC beating Oregon. Or take the last two elite eights for example for KU. Bad shooting cost them in each game. Guys were open that didn't knock down shots and Oregon and Nova did. That's just how it goes sometimes in a single elimination. The tournament is not set up to determine the absolute best team.
3. Are you aware that 1 seeds average something like 3.3 wins in the tournament ( I think that is since 2000)? If #1 seeds more often than not made the final four, the tournament wouldn't be as exciting to watch as it is. Who won the tournament last year? a 2 seed. There was another 2 seed and a 10 seed in the final four along with UNC (1). And as I stated previously, there are times when Self gets a higher seed than the team really is because of how good of coach he is.
David,I'm sure by my posts on this topic, most think I'm a KU, and Self Hater. Not true. I'm pretty impartial either way. When a thread is started on KU, I try to give the local perspective from people who are fans of the team, and whats being said by the locals and by the media who cover them on a daily basis.
As too my own feelings, I never once said it doesn't matter who they would hire, I said I doubted they would have any trouble hiring a top notch coach. I'll stand by that. I would add on your statement that #1 seeds average 3.3 wins per tourney. If my math is correct, then that means a #1 seed averages between an elite eight and final four appearance every year! On average. I'd take those odds going in, wouldn't you?
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