Brands displayed a can of worms, let's open it

[artradley]

In the thread about holding duals in front of minor bowl games, Brands suggested that rule changes need to be made before wrestling can attract a larger audience. So while we wait for the weekend, here are my thoughts on rule changes that will accomplish the following:

* Retain the integrity of the existing sport (control and mat wrestling matter)
* Encourage aggressiveness
* Discourage passiveness
* Create more scoring opportunities

Those are what need to be done to make the sport more exciting. Any rule change should clearly be designed to meet one of those goals. So here goes:

1. Push-out rule. Obvious. Current rule is an improvement, but it is horribly flawed.

2. No score at the end of the first period, referee has to charge one of the wrestlers with stalling. Note, I don't like charging them both with stalling, because a clearly passive guy is not punished. Three minutes on your feet? Somebody must pay the price.

3. An offensive takedown is 3 points. A defensive (counter) takedown is 2 points. This involves some judgement from the official but I think most cases are pretty clear.

4. Any back exposure while in control is one point. This rewards guys who are constantly trying to turn their opponent more than guys who just throw in a leg or a spiral and aren't really working for a turn.

5. Get rid of a fall without control. It's always been a stupid rule completely at odds with the idea that control matters, and more importantly it discourages the top man from taking chances. We'd see a lot more suicide tilt attempts if we got rid of this absurd rule; especially with a one-point exposure available. IMO implement 4 and 5 would have a huge impact.

6. I would like to see is a single point awarded if you ever capture your opponent's leg with both arms even if it doesn't result in a TD. If you get the TD it's an additional two points. So an inside trip is a 3-point move. Capture a single leg is 1-point, finish the TD is another two. Blast double but you don't convert? Still one point. Note only the man who initiates the attack scores. If you give up your leg then drape yourself over the attacker and grab an ankle, you still lose that point regardless of how it plays out.

7. If the bottom man gets to his feet and both wrestlers go OB, award an escape and go back on your feet. One of the crappiest things in wrestling is the bottom man getting up having the top guy ride him out of bounds for a fresh start. If you're going to get your 1-point riding time, you should earn it by completely controlling your opponent.

That's my list. I have a lot to say about riding with a leg it (which imo is parallel riding) but that's an even bigger can of worms.

 

[UndercoverHawk]

Pretty minor rule change that's a pet peeve of mine. If you secure a tf with rt you should only get 4 team points. It's so annoying watching somebody ride for 30 seconds to secure a tf. Cut him and end it before the 7:00. I prefer tf be a match termination. You can still have your stats say you got the tech but only 4 team points.

1. It's slowly improving give it another year.
2. Sounds great in theory but you know there would be some controversy in some matches about who was the passive wrestler and I see there being problems.
3. Honestly don't know how I feel about it. Pass for now.
4. Just a roll through I don't like but a solid 1 count should so maybe a point per second from 1-4.
5. Yes
6. Very interesting I had never thought about it.
7. Yes that's the most aggravating thing in wrestling. Maybe you give 1 freebie to the top and give him a chance to control but after that it's an escape. That would've changed a lot of tony Nelson matches.

 

[crablegs1]

7 is a great idea. Never thought about it, but wrestlers take advantage of that position and it slows down matches a ton.

Not a fan of all the changes you proposed, but let's start with 1 and 7.

 

[championhawk]

Pretty minor rule change that's a pet peeve of mine. If you secure a tf with rt you should only get 4 team points. It's so annoying watching somebody ride for 30 seconds to secure a tf. Cut him and end it before the 7:00. I prefer tf be a match termination. You can still have your stats say you got the tech but only 4 team points.

1. It's slowly improving give it another year. No it isn't. It is as inconsistent as ever. Push out is the only way to go.

 

[UndercoverHawk]

It works until it's a marquee matchup or its nationals and the refs don't wanna intervene. That's the problem. They just need to have no fear in calling it.

 

[crablegs1]

It works until it's a marquee matchup or its nationals and the refs don't wanna intervene. That's the problem. They just need to have no fear in calling it.

The only way to get that is with a push out. Right now there is too much discretion, and a ref knows they will get killed for calling a stalling either way in that situation in a big match.

 

[rustynailhawk]

I really enjoy 3 and 7. If a person is indeed a counter wrestler than they still get their points ..I'm assuming if all were in play that if a guy was in on a Shot with both legs and there was a counter td it would be scored one for aggressor and 2 for counter..

 

[AFHawk86]

Needs to be simple...pushout, 3 points for ALL takedowns, and eliminate RT.

 

[anon_hc7hkvtk15hp5]

Needs to be simple...pushout, 3 points for ALL takedowns, and eliminate RT.

Yes, especially if your goal is attracting more fans, the scoring needs to be very simple. While some of these would be great for us as very knowledgable fans, it would be hard for the uninformed to understand.

As it currently is, there is too much subjectivity. And some these would give the refs even more control/influence into the outcome of a big match. Unless you end up with multiple refs all having to agree on the calls (who was aggressor on a "half shot" counter).

 

[PrairieHawk1]

The problem with #6 arises if a guy has a few point lead. The guy with the lead can dive in on the legs, secure 1 point, hang on as long as he can, give up 2 points, then earn an escape point, and no change has occurred.

That may also be confusing for the general fan.

I'm also unsure of #4. This would eliminate a lot of the entertaining rolling around and granby/scramble situations. It would make a crotch lift situation a legitimate move for a top guy, and I'm not sure that I'm on board with that.

The rest look pretty good.

 

[artradley]

The problem with #6 arises if a guy has a few point lead. The guy with the lead can dive in on the legs, secure 1 point, hang on as long as he can, give up 2 points, then earn an escape point, and no change has occurred.

That may also be confusing for the general fan.

I'm also unsure of #4. This would eliminate a lot of the entertaining rolling around and granby/scramble situations. It would make a crotch lift situation a legitimate move for a top guy, and I'm not sure that I'm on board with that.

The rest look pretty good.

I hadn't thought about the Granby being back exposure. I suppose the earlier poster's suggestion that it needs to be a one-count would make sense. I definitely feel it would be great if the top guy could more easily score points -- because IMO scoring points is what makes the fans cheer and makes things exciting.

 

[pablow]

1. Modified free style step out rule
2. Riding time point awarded at 30 seconds (just like tie-breaker - you ride you get one, you don't - opponent gets escape)
3. No cumulative riding time clock - every 30 second ride is separate event with no carry over. (this would eliminate wrestler trying to ride opponent's time advantage away)

 

[pablow]

I forgot to add. After 30 second ride you can release opponent without escape point or continue to ride only if you turning opponent.

 

[neversurrender]

So all someone needs to do is grab onto a leg and they get a point? Giving a point on something like that would be saying well I attempted to throw a touchdown pass the receiver had it hit his hands in the end zone but dropped it so we get 2 points instead of 6. A guy like Jesse Delgado who would shoot that low shot then just hang on waiting for stalemates could rack up a lot of points without ever trying to finish anything.

 

[LBlindHawk]

I forgot to add. After 30 second ride you can release opponent without escape point or continue to ride only if you turning opponent.

I like this. Add all periods starting from neutral (because they will anyway).

 

[Big Fall]

I have three that I'd like

1. Offensive takedowns are 2 points, counter takedowns are 1

2. Push out rule

3. On RT, give the 1 point when a wrestler reaches 1:00 of RT and from that point forward, if the wrestler than already has RT is on top and not making progress to turn and the bottom guy can't get an escape, stop action and bring them back to their feet. No more idle mat wrestling time where nothing is happening.

I think these three would be relatively simple to implement and you'd see immediate improvement with more action and an incentive to take risk. Tell a guy like BS he can score an extra point for taking his own shot and I think you'd see a different wrestler. The problem I see most frequently in college wrestling is guys are scared to shoot against a good defensive wrestler because they know if it's not perfect, they're risking giving up a takedown. If there is less risk to taking a shot and more reward for taking your own shot, I think you'd see a lot more offense.

 

[pablow]

So all someone needs to do is grab onto a leg and they get a point? Giving a point on something like that would be saying well I attempted to throw a touchdown pass the receiver had it hit his hands in the end zone but dropped it so we get 2 points instead of 6. A guy like Jesse Delgado who would shoot that low shot then just hang on waiting for stalemates could rack up a lot of points without ever trying to finish anything.

I forgot to add, I got a Jesse Delgado Rule - during the one point 30 second ride period if the top wrestler hangs on below the knee the ref give the scorer's table a hand signal and the ride time clock is reversed to add time. If a wrestler goes into negative territory an escape is awarded.

 

[MVPFAN]

I am torn on the push out rule. I don't like it becoming a pushing contest. Guys are going to back to the edge and bait people near the edge just to use a variety of pushing techniques to get cheap points. I like a step out rule better like what they currently have but instead of giving stall calls if the guy steps out then give the point. They need to clarify if a guy has a throw position locked up and the other guy backs away to get out of the situation the guy backing up is the one at fault all the time. The guy is backing up to avoid getting thrown. Basically if a guy just plain backs off or steps out during scoring action hit him with a point. If it is just a shove then no point.

I like 3 for a TD for sure. Not sure about going into points for the counter vs initiator, could get complicated.

I could go with giving 1 back point per swipe up to 4.

I like getting rid of the neutral fall.

#6 is too complicated IMO, the ref and table would never be able to keep the score right.

#7 is long overdue. Either give the escape or call the top guy for stalling. I hate that crap pushing the bottom guy out to avoid an escape and to make it worse they quit calling stalling for not getting the guy to the mat in 5 seconds.

Get rid of riding time for sure, it encourages stalling. Reward back exposure not just riding. I even like putting them on their feet if no escape or back points are earned in 30 seconds.

Figure 4 on the leg stall ride needs to be banned!

 

[neversurrender]

I forgot to add, I got a Jesse Delgado Rule - during the one point 30 second ride period if the top wrestler hangs on below the knee the ref give the scorer's table a hand signal and the ride time clock is reversed to add time. If a wrestler goes into negative territory an escape is awarded.

Love it.

 

[moosemonster]

Once each meet, one human being must wrestle an animal. Polar bear, crocodile, hippo...

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

While I am not sure about all of your suggested rule changes Art...I would still nominate you to serve on the rules committee to bring change, read offensive moves and action, back to college wrestling. I like your premise and I think several of your ideas would be improvements, with perhaps a couple of modifications.

In general, I am very hesitant about any rule that relies on referee(s)...as in my mind, you have immediate inconsistency due to interpretation, predisposition, differences between individual refs, tendencies to swallow the whistle in tough matches, etc.

We need less ambiguity, and associated potential controversy, and more "up on the wheel" action...which I think is best generated when the contest is as pure as possible between two individuals, with as little 3rd party(referee) oversight/involvement as possible. Personally, I think all of this clock stoppage to review the film, etc, is hogwash. Make the rules as simple as possible and let 'er rip. Stop for blood or serious injury only IMO.

For instance, your #3, awarding 3 points for an offensive takedown could be problematic IMO. Potential scenario...wrestler #1 initiates a TD, #2 counters and scores...but how legit was #1's attempt? Was it a half shot, a fake, etc? I say make all TD's worth 3 points, escapes worth 1 pt. Right there, both wrestlers are more incented to go after TD's.

Good conversation, love the topic.

 

[ping72]

How would 7 work with the pushout rule? Both guys get 1 point, then start neutral?

 

[Gobblin]

Push out is 1 point... Start each period from neutral, so you must earn a TD to ride! No riding time unless you score backs.

 

[lookleft goright]

I forgot to add. After30 second ride you can release opponent without escape point or continue to ride only if you turning opponent.

That would result in guys just hanging on to ride and get riding time and then releasing.. It would take away all motivation to turn.

 

[lookleft goright]

How about overtime 2 people yell stalling in the crowd, the ref has to call stalling.
Seriously though, the pushout can work , but what we have now is also working. The refs have been consistent and regular calling stalling on a guy who does not work to get back to the center.

I would like to see stalling called instead of stalemates. Whenever you are riding, every stalemate should be stalling on top. On the feet, if one guy initiates the action and we get to a stalemate position, the defensive wrestler should get hit with stalling. If the only way he can stop the guy from scoring is stalemating the situation, then he should be hit with stalling.

If you put in a leg when the guy stands, that is stalling, not a stalemate first and then stalling the second time. If it is stalling the second time, it is stalling the first time.

 

[AFHawk86]

Push out is 1 point... Start each period from neutral, so you must earn a TD to ride! No riding time unless you score backs.

If you score backs you don't need a riding point

 

[championhawk]

How about overtime 2 people yell stalling in the crowd, the ref has to call stalling.
Seriously though, the pushout can work , but what we have now is also working. The refs have been consistent and regular calling stalling on a guy who does not work to get back to the center.

You haven't watched many matches have you?

 

[pablow]

That would result in guys just hanging on to ride and get riding time and then releasing.. It would take away all motivation to turn.

Don't get your comment. I proposed no riding after 30 seconds unless top man is turning opponent.

 

[Gobblin]

If you score backs you don't need a riding point

True, but it'll prevent the cling riding to try win on RT you silly goose.

 

[lookleft goright]

You haven't watched many matches have you?

Yes I have and I like the way they are calling it. Just my opinion.

 

[pumpdog20]

Needs to be simple...pushout, 3 points for ALL takedowns, and eliminate RT.

Mostly this:

-3 point takedowns
-pushout rule
-freestyle rules on top (after control)

 

[championhawk]

Yes I have and I like the way they are calling it. Just my opinion.

You said the refs have been consistent in how they call it which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[moosemonster]

I sense some of you puny guys are afraid of change. Alright, you can wrestle a koala bear or a bunny.

 

[Mattski]

Push out for 1 point.
No riding time. If you want to ride someone for control that is fine, but you don't deserve a point for it.
First stall is a point, each additional is 2. Enough is enough with stalling time to fix it.
Start at neutral every period.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Push out is 1 point... Start each period from neutral, so you must earn a TD to ride! No riding time unless you score backs.

Of all the good ideas to increase action...I think I like this one the best. It's clean, neat and I think would really change the strategy of those wrestlers that go into a match aiming for 3-2 snorefest, er, I mean, decision.

 

[pablow]

Of all the good ideas to increase action...I think I like this one the best. It's clean, neat and I think would really change the strategy of those wrestlers that go into a match aiming for 3-2 snorefest, er, I mean, decision.

Except a stall ride is still legal. I'd rather the refs just return the wrestlers to neutral if nothing's progressing - just like in free style.

 

[Gobblin]

Except a stall ride is still legal. I'd rather the refs just return the wrestlers to neutral if nothing's progressing - just like in free style.

No doubt... Those rides by Montoya and Jack in back to back matches in the Midlands finals were pathetic and everything that's wrong with what we're discussing. And nary a stall call was made... For the love of Gable at least call a double stall in both those matches!

 

[artradley]

How would 7 work with the pushout rule? Both guys get 1 point, then start neutral?

Push out is only from neutral.

 

[bawlmerhawk]

Don't get your comment. I proposed no riding after 30 seconds unless top man is turning opponent.

Yes! I've suggested this before: a 60 second limit on riding (30 works), then wrestlers up with no escape points.

 

[Azchief32]

I am torn on the push out rule. I don't like it becoming a pushing contest. Guys are going to back to the edge and bait people near the edge just to use a variety of pushing techniques to get cheap points.

It didn't in freestyle. Now, freestyle wrestling tends to stay in the middle. Maybe the bigger guys try this but we see a lot more offense in freestyle.

Also, what happened to the dual stall calls? If nobody was shooting, I remember refs used to call both guys. Now, you never see it.

I also like freestyle giving a passive (stall) on one guy if there isn't any scoring in the first minute.