breaking Supreme Court sides with coach who sought to pray after games

[Colonoscopy]

Climate advocacy - despite the unhinged claims of the right - isn't a religion.

Sure. I'm saying religion isn't unique, so it's not uniquely rejected and doesn't get any special rights.

In the scenario I outlined above it's cultural/political/advocacy -- they all get thrown in the same bin in this scenario -- and it's a school official.

It's a "special interest" that may or may not be held by students. To me you're stuck basically accepting it all, or rejecting it all.

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

That said, the dissent isn't helped by being so incredibly poor. They start of by saying the majority ignored the facts, then made statements that clearly mischaracterized facts.

Link to the statements you believe are mischaracterizations and the record?

 

[doughuddl2]

Most religious court in 70 years according to NPR. I'm sure that makes about 35% of you very happy.

And another 35% get triggered and the remaining watching the blowback.

 

[BelemNole]

This study was done LAST YEAR.

The U.S. Supreme Court has supported religion in 81.3% of the religious cases under the leadership of Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., a big jump from prior years.

The study, set to be published in the Supreme Court Review, has the statistics: The Supreme Court supported a religious outcome in 45.5% of the religion cases under Chief Justice Earl Warren, in 51.4% of the cases under Chief Justice Warren Burger, and 58.1% of the cases under Chief Justice William H. Rehnquis

Supreme Court's most pro-religion justices since WWII sit on the current court, new study says

The U.S. Supreme Court has supported religion in 81.3% of the religious cases under the leadership of Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., a big jump from prior years.

www.abajournal.com

 

[Colonoscopy]

This study was done LAST YEAR.

The U.S. Supreme Court has supported religion in 81.3% of the religious cases under the leadership of Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., a big jump from prior years.

Is that because of the makeup of the court?

 

[DooBii]

You're a kid on a HS football team and you want to play. How coercive is it for your coach to announce that he's going to create a public spectacle in support of his faith but you're more than welcome to sit it out?

Did he announce it? Or did he just go out by himself and started praying?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Sure. I'm saying religion isn't unique, so it's not uniquely rejected and doesn't get any special rights.

Religious freedom is codified in the Constitution. That makes it different. Very different.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Sure. I'm saying religion isn't unique, so it's not uniquely rejected and doesn't get any special rights.

In the scenario I outlined above it's cultural/political/advocacy -- they all get thrown in the same bin in this scenario -- and it's a school official.

It's a "special interest" that may or may not be held by students. To me you're stuck basically accepting it all, or rejecting it all.

Another solution might be to allow gatherings/information about gatherings in the school, but to have it be completely student controlled.

The science teacher couldn't talk about the climate advocacy group, however.

A teacher/coach could lead a prayer gathering after a game.

That's probably not unreasonable.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Religious freedom is codified in the Constitution. That makes it different. Very different.

How? Your right to gather over climate advocacy would also be constitutionally supported. How are they different in the context I'm speaking of?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Did he announce it? Or did he just go out by himself and started praying?

I have no idea how it started. The last instance resulted in a mob storming the field and students were knocked down. The coach likened it to his time as a Marine and stated he couldn't leave the "field of battle" without a public display of his faith. That good old "football is war" metaphor.

BTW, parents testified in the lower courts that their children felt compelled to participate.

 

[ConvenientParking]

Did he announce it? Or did he just go out by himself and started praying?

We knelt and bowed in a large circle in a darkened gymnasium next to the locker room and it was the last thing we did before we lined up to take the field. There was no announcement as it were, it was unofficially expected as part of the program. There was no option presented. I have little reason to doubt this isn't the case at different places all over Iowa and elsewhere in the country still.

 

[Colonoscopy]

We knelt and bowed in a large circle in a darkened gymnasium next to the locker room and it was the last thing we did before we lined up to take the field. There was no announcement as it were, it was unofficially expected as part of the program. There was no option presented. I have little reason to doubt this isn't the case at different places all over Iowa and elsewhere in the country still.

I don't support that. If you're going to do this it has to be well established as an optional thing.

 

[Aardvark86]

It matters not what his "record" is. He is an authority figure under contract to the state. Until he is on his own time...which isn't until all of his players are beyond his supervision...his actions have a coercive, compulsory effect. Period. That's not even arguable to a rational person. Hell, he could have ordered players to not accompany him specifically to establish his "record of noncoercion". Seeking to be a test case would logically follow from his "march to midfield" conceit.

To the contrary, the record before the court is precisely what matters.

now of course had he ordered the players one way or the other he would be an actual public authority figure, actually exercising it, to restrict individual players free exercise.

 

[Aardvark86]

Just out of curiousity, why is it that you think the first amendment contains an establishment and free exercise clause?

 

[hwk23]

This cuts both ways it seems. The 1st amendment is clear that the legislative body should not make any law or rule prohibiting or favoring religion. The emphasis is "no rule or law" by the legistlative body but what about school districts making rules regarding their employees. That's tricky. If you allow one district to specifically prohibit religion, as a rule, it seems you have to allow another district to include religion.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Next up: Mandatory prayer in school.

Hey, if you don't want to pray along with us, that's OK.

Just don't you dare do anything else, while we're praying.

And maybe you should go stand in the corner, so we can all keep an eye on you.

But . . . no pressure.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I don't support that. If you're going to do this it has to be well established as an optional thing.

Good Christians gather here with me to pray to the one, true God.

Heathens, apostates, and Satan's minions stand over there. You know who you are . . . and so do we.

 

[sober_teacher]

I’ll be sure to remember that when I care about winning an argument on HORT.

Then why do it?

How well circumscribed was the process? That's where it gets tricky. I could see it being reasonable and respectfully done, or, being pushed upon people.

This is where I come down on this. Easy in theory to say its all completely voluntary, no hard feelings. Harder in practice to not hold against someone ho doesn’t participate.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

How well circumscribed was the process? That's where it gets tricky. I could see it being reasonable and respectfully done, or, being pushed upon people.

Wait, are they checking to see who's circumscribed?

 

[swagsurfer02]

Time for the Satanists and Wiccans to organize some on-field "worship services" at games now...

I’ve played tons of sports with hundreds of kids growing up, I don’t think I ever remembered a Wiccan or Satanists….. probably just not very competitive

 

[Colonoscopy]

Good Christians gather here with me to pray to the one, true God.

Heathens, apostates, and Satan's minions stand over there. You know who you are . . . and so do we.

My point outlined above is that this dynamic can replicate across all kinds of excuses for gathering besides religion.

Maybe the rule, in general, should be that public officials can't lead, design, (participate?) or encourage participating in these sorts of special interest gatherings. (in this scenario, it would have to be something that organically emerges on the basis of student interest)

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

This is where I come down on this. Easy in theory to say its all completely voluntary, no hard feelings. Harder in practice to not hold against someone ho doesn’t participate.

Even easier to hold it against those who complain about it.

It's unlikely to be a problem if no prayer happens.

We used to understand this as a nation. What happened?

 

[BlIIlken2]

 

[Flie]

I agree with the decision...it isn't forcing religion on anyone.

Try to abstain from group prayer at school or work. I mean, you probably won't get beaten or anything like that but people definitely notice and draw attention to it. People will try to shame you into participating and they remember that you didn't and start drawing conclusions about you. You will also have people repeatedly approach you about it over time. Some will take a positive "I need to save this man" approach and others take a more negative approach. It's just easier to fake it and avoid the confrontation.

 

[SI_NYC]

Curious why it offends you?

You would you mind if a coach did a pagan ceremony at the end of the game? How about a satanist?

 

[IamHawkeye]

Oh the humanity that a coach can pray on a football field. Clearly the end of democracy.

Praying to who or what? Are all forms of worship protected?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

To the contrary, the record before the court is precisely what matters.

now of course had he ordered the players one way or the other he would be an actual public authority figure, actually exercising it, to restrict individual players free exercise.

First, he IS an actual public authority figure. Second, as stated earlier, parents testified in court that their children felt compelled to participate. That's not "free exercise". This really should have been an open and shut case.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I agree with the decision...it isn't forcing religion on anyone.

No, the decision isn't forcing religion on anyone. It's just giving permission to various people in positions of authority to force religion on others.

If we were talking about sex, few of us would have any problem seeing this ruling as permission to engage in sexual harassment.

Why aren't people so clear-eyed about religion?

 

[bdcolt45er]

Then why do it?



This is where I come down on this. Easy in theory to say its all completely voluntary, no hard feelings. Harder in practice to not hold against someone ho doesn’t participate.

I wouldn't hold it against you but then again I would never ask my players to pray with me.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

It's just giving permission to various people in positions of authority to force religion on others.

Sorry, I just don't see it that way.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Praying to who or what? Are all forms of worship protected?

Better not hire that Muslim coach. What if he gets everyone to start praying to Allah?

Better not hire that atheist coach. What if he gets everyone to believe in science?

 

[IACub]

Link that proves this

Sure thing, I'll get right on it.

 

[IACub]

You're on your own buddy

Damn, I was hoping for some of those thoughts and prayers that fix everything.

 

[brownd7949hawks]

You would you mind if a coach did a pagan ceremony at the end of the game? How about a satanist?

Nope wouldn’t care. I’m not religious either. I just don’t care what ppl do as long as they aren’t forcing others.

 

[brownd7949hawks]

Praying to who or what? Are all forms of worship protected?

Did the Supreme Court say any religions weren’t protected?

 

[brownd7949hawks]

Go back to Moscow.

Projection

 

[IACub]

I have no idea how it started. The last instance resulted in a mob storming the field and students were knocked down. The coach likened it to his time as a Marine and stated he couldn't leave the "field of battle" without a public display of his faith. That good old "football is war" metaphor.

BTW, parents testified in the lower courts that their children felt compelled to participate.

Not to mention the school tried to accommodate him by giving him and whatever players wanted to a place to pray that wasn't on the 50 yard line. He refused because he had to make it a big scene about showing the world he was praying to Jesus. He's a Jesus Diva.

 

[Caravaggio Hawkeye]

Absolutely within his rights. "Wait, wait! Everyone look at me while I pray! Look how pious I am!" Those types of Christians are the kind that kick their dogs. Absolutely within his rights, though.

Didn't your boy Sosa use to do some sign to God after he hit a homerun. You must have almost committed suicide in '98.

 

[IACub]

Didn't your boy Sosa use to do some sign to God after he hit a homerun. You must have almost committed suicide in '98.

Sosa didn't feel the need to trot out to the pitcher's mound to loudly pray every time he hit a homerun. But yes, thanking the great invisible sky man every time you hit a home run is also very silly.

 

[HawkMachine]

Anyone who feels the need to pray in public is only doing so because they want you to see them praying in public. It has nothing to do with God.

You obviously don't know anyone that has a lot of faith. Because you are 100% ass backwards.