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I really don't understand why this is so hard for my fellow hawk fans to comprehend. Cael can out-recruit Morningstar. That is no knock on Morningstar, but the head guy and the face of the program needs to be the guy doing the heavy lifting in recruiting. And he needs to work the recruiting aspect relentlessly. Brooks gave his verbal before we even said hi. I think that's ridiculous.
I don't think there is much whining on this thread by Hawk fans. Some actively engaging in discussion. A couple of jokes, which is all good on the home board. One guy asserting violations who has repeatedly done this in the past without backing it up with even a shred of evidence, or even logic behind his assertions. The gong he loves to bang.Before you even go saying whining on HR, most of our respected posters haven’t said anything on this thread. I don’t recognize half of the posters.
The funny thing to me is how all these star wrestlers are willing to take a scholarship discount because they come from "rich" families, but pro athletes (who are in many cases worth hundreds of millions) won't take a discount to help a teams cap. I'm not saying guys aren't doing this is wrestling, I'm just questioning their judgement.
And the number of "rich" college elite wrestlers apparently does not come close to resembling the general population. Quite a statistical anomaly.
Reaching out early - according to Mr. Brooks, Iowa did not reach out at all, so I guess ANY contact is early over here
Offering them club money on recruiting trips. - not really specific what you are referring to but I'm going with the NLWC after graduation angle that you love. I'll ask for the 30th time (and it will again go unanswered) - exactly which PSU wrestler that is not a multiple time AA has been a paid resident athlete at the NLWC to date? I mean even Jon Gingrich got a RTC gig at Pitt - exactly who is PSU offering these gigs to that aren't going to find a home at multiple RTCs if they want?
Overpaying summer camps with club money. - Please educate yourself on the amount of camps that PSU runs and the amount of expenses that are incurred at them. Fairly simple to do - you could put Vodka on it. And anyone that does this and has more than two brain cells will quickly deduce that nobody is getting rich as a camp counselor in the summer.
Using burner phones to reach out to recruits earlier and more often than they are suppose to. - OK, I'm chalking this one up to a misunderstanding as the Brands might not be aware that there things like cell phones, texts, instagrams, etc., yet. They might be unaware that there ARE allowable times to contact a recruit by something called a "cell phone."
Unwarranted academic scholarships - probably the most laughable one of the bunch, especially when you consider PSU vs. some of their competitors (tOSU for example with their OOS academic scholarship program available to ALL students). Getting academic aid at PSU as a freshman for any student is about as hard as getting into Princeton. Most academic awards are given to students AFTER their freshman year and they are highly competitive. There was exactly ONE PSU wrestler that received academic aid last season. Zain Retherford (3.72gpa, Academic AA), Jason Nolf (Academic AA) would be your guess, right? Incorrect. The only PSU wrestler receiving an academic award last year's name is Devon Van Cura (4.0 student, Chemistry scholarship). You are better off going down the financial aid road with that accusation, although again, the facts won't be on your side as PSU's financial aid grants are among the lowest in the nation as a percentage of need. Most PA residents that are fairly good students are likely to find it as cheap to attend tOSU as OOS students as it is for them to attend PSU in-state. PSU's financial aid office sucks, to be frank.
There are also multiple public examples of PSU wrestlers NOT getting full scholarships (Nevills - top 10 recruit - publicly stating that he gets 60%, Suriano's dad supposedly PO'd because Nick missed out on scholly money because he missed the postseason last year, Megaludis giving up his scholly SR year for the team - his family is well off. Verkleeren publicly stating that he was going as a walk-on because he wanted to be at PSU and earn a scholly). But don't let that stand in the way of your tantrum.
No, there is no "link" to an internet posting stating what PSU counselors are paid. However, since you seem to have a lot of spare time on your hands, you could do what I have done and do a little research.You have a link to the data on PSUs summer camp expenses and how much their camp counselors are paid? I wasn't aware this was public info. Would love a link.
You are forgetting or twisting a number of things here. First, noone goes into wrestling for the money or a chance at professional fame. Second, financial decisions for recruits are usually made by the parents, not by the wrestler. Many wrestling parents have been paying $1000s for camps, tourneys, private coaching. Many just want what is best for their son, and will (continue to) sacrifice for it. Isn't really the same in my opinion as the pro athlete salcap example (which is also influenced by agents, other players who want the salaries to always grow, etc.). Noone is saying that the wrestlers are taking less money for the good of the team. But maybe the parents are taking less money for the good of their son. Huge difference. Related, I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if the family of the average college wrestler is better off than the average college hoops player, for example.The funny thing to me is how all these star wrestlers are willing to take a scholarship discount because they come from "rich" families, but pro athletes (who are in many cases worth hundreds of millions) won't take a discount to help a teams cap. I'm not saying guys aren't doing this is wrestling, I'm just questioning their judgement.
And the number of "rich" college elite wrestlers apparently does not come close to resembling the general population. Quite a statistical anomaly.
JEEZ, can we all be honest for just a minute!?!?! Diceman, listen guy. no offense, but really??? Please go take this garbage someplace else!!!
We all can clearly see that they are playing games and I am guessing sooner or later it will come crashing down!
They received a large amount of $$$$$ and they are using it to buy Wrestlers PERIOD! Do you honestly think kids who worked most of their lives to achieve greatness and their parents who also must have put in a lot of time and money. They are going to throw away 50+K a year when many other very good programs would be offering full rides?
Minny and Iowa St. are down right now, but both have history and both are trying to build for example. Plus do not forget the matter of pride in getting rewarded for all your work in earning a Full Ride!
IF the NCAA is going to allow it? Then what is stopping others from doing the same? For example. What if there was a Wall Street Tycoon who happened to be a Wrestler and Grad from a school(I will use Hofstra because I am from LI NY)
Say said Billionaire offered 100 Million to build a Wrestling facility with his name(Super Rich guy Jones) on it and build a Dynasty! I say OK. I offer Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, and Zain Retherford 100K ea. to coach on my staff! Free Grad tuition, ALL expenses paid, plus camps, clinics, posters, T-shirts etc...
Bonuses for every championship you win too! Then we offer EVERY P4P top guy a FULL RIDE!!! (we have 9.9 to work with) We then let it be know to guys like Spencer Lee, Gable Stevenson, and the likes. If you would consider transferring here is our offer.
FULL paid college, 5K for making starting line up. Extra 10k for making AA. Extra 25K for NC!!! PLUS camps, Clinics and a club team with same deal as above guys!!!
Far fetched? See SMU Football! Right now it is an un-level playing field. NO different from PED in my opinion! So for everyone else it is. Find away to do the same, or make the NCAA crack down!
Who says they all come from "rich" families? All three of the examples I used above - including the Iowa example - come from families that are at best middle class working families financially. At best.
People don't need to be rich to sacrifice for their children.
With the amount of people that profess to not understand this over here, I would have to say that there are a large number of posters who are not parents, or that a culture of "tough love" must be more prevalent in Iowa than in the rest of the nation.
You are forgetting or twisting a number of things here. First, noone goes into wrestling for the money or a chance at professional fame. Second, financial decisions for recruits are usually made by the parents, not by the wrestler. Many wrestling parents have been paying $1000s for camps, tourneys, private coaching. Many just want what is best for their son, and will (continue to) sacrifice for it. Isn't really the same in my opinion as the pro athlete salcap example (which is also influenced by agents, other players who want the salaries to always grow, etc.). Related, I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if the family of the average college wrestler is better off than the average college hoops player, for example.
Personally, I think this discourse is insulting to the athletes and their families. Many, many parents, perhaps most, especially in the wrestling community, would gladly take a 2nd job if it meant their son could follow their dreams. There were 5 sets of PSU's parents who were not regretting their choice, no matter what it cost them, last March. Maybe it didn't cost them anything because they were compensated by the slush fund. Or maybe they and their sons saw the dozens of PSU team and individual celebrations over the last 10 years and said "we want to be part of that, no matter what it costs".
Maybe PSU is cheating. But the answer above is far more likely in my opinion.
I would think that you can admit that the pro dynamic is very different than a kid selecting a college. Pros are generally adults making decisions about making themselves and their children and grandchildren financially secure in the future in the examples you are talking about.You saw me put "rich" in quotes right? I was pointing out why would all these college wrestlers wrestle below their value and not take guaranteed full rides at other schools? Pro athletes don't take discounts even when many of them are making many millions of dollars.
Yes, I know your answer is going to be they want to wrestle for Cael and winning national team titles.
NCAA recruiting is a nasty slimy business any way you slice it. I truly miss the days when the best coach (Dan Gable) won the most championships. Now its the best recruiter (Carl) winning most frequently.
What really changed is the skill level of high school wrestlers today. I miss guys like Whitmer who sat on the bench for years honing his craft and eventually becoming a champion.
No, there is no "link" to an internet posting stating what PSU counselors are paid. However, since you seem to have a lot of spare time on your hands, you could do what I have done and do a little research.
You could use this thing called google to find the NLWC tax returns and get that camp expense number which is public.
You could use it again to gather all the information about NLWC camps that are being run - where (some are as far as GA, one was in IA last year), the amount of campers, the length, whether room and board was required, etc.
You could make some pretty well educated guesses on the expenses that must be incurred if you are familiar with them like I am, or you could make a phone call to someone who would be able to do this easily. Things like facility fees, housing (if applicable), board (most times applicable), insurance per event, technician fees (not counselor fees), incidentals like camp T-shirts, etc.
You could add all them up and then estimate the number left over against the amount of counselors likely needed to staff these camps.
You are likely to deduce from this that the market rate, even on the high side, for a camp counselor is not something that you want to do for a living. But I'll leave that up to you.
He does seem like a wet napkin, but he has built a machine that is attracting the right type of recruits which in today's top heavy ecosystem is #1 thing you can do as a college coach to have the best team possible.For me looking through (black and gold glasses) this sums it up best in your first paragraph. We got to see Cael first hand as an athlete and a coach. Pretty hard to comprehend him (seeing his personality- which is less than awe inspiring) being on par with Gable the coach, so makes all of this pretty tough to comprehend. Cael is no Dan Gable, John Smith, J Rob or Tom Brands. Maybe more of a Joe Seay...--- couldn't resist there!
All this hate on Penn State because they are bringing in top notch recruits one after another. You guys don't see how smart Carl is lining things up in Happy Valley with having guys take a year to train at RTCs until scholly money opens up and is available. I would be willing to take on an extra 20k a year in debt if it meant contending for 4 team titles on top of my individual goals. The staff at Penn State is top notch (as are a few other institutions, but realistically Penn State has the best college staff there is right now. That will change over time, though) as well so there is almost nothing to detract one from wanting to go there. Don't cry foul just because Iowa isn't competing right now. Even in a "rebuilding year" the Hawks have moved back into team trophy territory. Why don't we celebrate the successes of the programs rather than look enviously at what other teams have going on right now. Green is not a good color for Iowa, so stop wearing it so boastfully.
The skill level of today's blue chippers is off the charts better than they were in the Gable days.NCAA recruiting is a nasty slimy business any way you slice it. I truly miss the days when the best coach (Dan Gable) won the most championships. Now its the best recruiter (Carl) winning most frequently.
What really changed is the skill level of high school wrestlers today. I miss guys like Whitmer who sat on the bench for years honing his craft and eventually becoming a champion.
He does seem like a wet napkin, but he has built a machine that is attracting the right type of recruits which in today's ecosystem is #1 thing you can do as a college coach to have the best team possible.
What's to like about Penn State? I can't stand them.
Are you really going to go at me from the arrogant and condescending tone? Not sure you want to use PSU's 990 as evidence that they're not paying excessively for camps. I've looked at both Iowa's and PSU's and compared last summer. Their 990 is one of the reasons people are making accusations regarding camp pay to begin with.
Here's the raw data that is publicly available:
Nittany Lion Wrestling Club:
Organization's Mission: SUPPORT & PROMOTE AMATEUR WRESTLING BY CONDUCTING WRESTLING CAMPS, TOURNAMENTS AND CLINICS.
Purpose of Expenses: SKILLED WRESTLING INSTRUCTIONS PROVIDED AT THE CAMPS, CLINICS AND TOURNAMENTS CONDUCTED BY THE CLUB.
(Notice it says nothing about athletes competing internationally or supporting their freestyle/greco athletes. It explicitly says this money if for camps, clinics and tournaments CONDUCTED by the club).
Expenses: $613,867
Revenue: $0 ($0 revenue for wrestling camps?)
Hawkeye Wrestling Club:
Organization's Mission: SINCE ITS INCEPTION IN 1973 THE FOCUS OF HAWKEYE WRESTLING CLUB HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO PROVIDE THE TRAINING, COACHING AND RESOURCES NECESSARY TO HELP OUR ATHLETES PURSUE THEIR DREAMS OF BECOMING WORLD AND OLYMPIC CHAMPIONS THE MONEY RAISED GOES DIRECTLY TO BENEFIT THE ATHLETES HELPING WITH LIVING EXPENSES, TRAINING, AND TRAVELING NEEDS.
Purpose of Expenses: THE ORGANIZATION SUPPORTED TEN WORLD CLASS WRESTLERS DURING THEIR TRAINING IN PURSUIT OF OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALS AND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Expenses: $384,487
Revenue: $255,661
Now, again, I'm not making any claims that his is evidence that PSU is cheating. However, the raw data in the only public info I can find on PSU camp pay is very questionable.
I like our coaches I love living in Iowa. No way would I live in PA and no way would I wear those really ugly singlets and I am not even fashion conscience. Why do we need this long discussion. ☺It seems like people are not grateful for what they have, but instead like to complain about what they do not have.
Iowa has a great program. Iowa has great coaches who mold young boys into fine men. Iowa has great fans who love wrestling. It would be so wonderful to live in a place around people who like wrestling and want to talk wrestling. Iowa is the bench mark of wrestling.
Iowa doesn't have the financial backing some other schools have. They are not the heavily favored team every year.
Enjoy your blessings you have or complain about what you don't have - the choice is yours.
I like our coaches I love living in Iowa. No way would I live in PA and no way would I wear those really ugly singlets and I am not even fashion conscience. Why do we need this long discussion. ☺
For me (looking through black and gold glasses) this sums it up best in your first paragraph. We got to see Cael first hand as an athlete and a coach. Pretty hard to comprehend him (seeing his personality- which is less than awe inspiring) being on par with Gable the coach, so makes all of this pretty tough to comprehend. Cael is no Dan Gable, John Smith, J Rob or Tom Brands. Maybe more of a Joe Seay...--- couldn't resist there!
The funny thing to me is how all these star wrestlers are willing to take a scholarship discount because they come from "rich" families, but pro athletes (who are in many cases worth hundreds of millions) won't take a discount to help a teams cap. I'm not saying guys aren't doing this is wrestling, I'm just questioning their judgement.
And the number of "rich" college elite wrestlers apparently does not come close to resembling the general population. Quite a statistical anomaly.
We all can clearly see that they are playing games and I am guessing sooner or later it will come crashing down!
No, "We all" can't. A few guys who have a hard time accepting the fact that they are getting the brakes beat off them in recruiting, branding, marketing, and understanding the importance of these things have come up with a convenient excuse for why they can't land the same amount of blue chip talent.
They received a large amount of $$$$$ and they are using it to buy Wrestlers PERIOD! Do you honestly think kids who worked most of their lives to achieve greatness and their parents who also must have put in a lot of time and money. They are going to throw away 50+K a year when many other very good programs would be offering full rides?
Do you honestly think a difference of 1/2 scholarship (15 grand or so) a year would be the deciding factor to guys like David Taylor or Mark Hall...whose families relocated across the country not once, but twice while they were younger just to further their wrestling career? Think about that.
Minny and Iowa St. are down right now, but both have history and both are trying to build for example. Plus do not forget the matter of pride in getting rewarded for all your work in earning a Full Ride!
Exactly...history. Ask the top 25 p4p kids in the nation who Royce Alger, the Banach Brothers, Jeff McGinnes or TJ WIlliams are...then go ask them who David Taylor, Kyle Dake, Quentin Wright and Tony Ramos are. Since the time this years crop was in Middle School (2010) Iowa has had (I think) 6 individual NCAA Champs. Penn State has had 17. Which of those two programs do you think they equate with success?
IF the NCAA is going to allow it? Then what is stopping others from doing the same? For example. What if there was a Wall Street Tycoon who happened to be a Wrestler and Grad from a school(I will use Hofstra because I am from LI NY)
Say said Billionaire offered 100 Million to build a Wrestling facility with his name(Super Rich guy Jones) on it and build a Dynasty! I say OK. I offer Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, and Zain Retherford 100K ea. to coach on my staff! Free Grad tuition, ALL expenses paid, plus camps, clinics, posters, T-shirts etc...
Bonuses for every championship you win too! Then we offer EVERY P4P top guy a FULL RIDE!!! (we have 9.9 to work with) We then let it be know to guys like Spencer Lee, Gable Stevenson, and the likes. If you would consider transferring here is our offer.
FULL paid college, 5K for making starting line up. Extra 10k for making AA. Extra 25K for NC!!! PLUS camps, Clinics and a club team with same deal as above guys!!!
Exactly...which is why you see this happening all over the country right now....right?
Far fetched? See SMU Football! Right now it is an un-level playing field. NO different from PED in my opinion! So for everyone else it is. Find away to do the same, or make the NCAA crack down!
I like our coaches I love living in Iowa. No way would I live in PA and no way would I wear those really ugly singlets and I am not even fashion conscience. Why do we need this long discussion. ☺
I like our coaches I love living in Iowa. No way would I live in PA and no way would I wear those really ugly singlets and I am not even fashion conscience. Why do we need this long discussion. ☺
Can’t get the guys you dont recruit
I honestly don't care that Brooks is headed to PSU ... it makes sense at this point and best of luck to him. I do care about losing Thomsen and Teske. I will care if we don't get Schriever, and other Iowa studs in the future. I know we get recruits from all over, including PA, but Iowa can't let it's legit HS studs get away.
No but it sure seems like the most likely place these days. Maybe he also liked the international caliber wrestling partners. Maybe he also liked the variety of degrees. Maybe he also liked the dual meet atmosphere. Maybe he also liked the other big game sporting event atmospheres on campus. Maybe he also liked the campus. Maybe he also liked the coaching staff. Or maybe its all about the money *rolls eyes*Yeah b/c PSU is the only place an elite Mark Hall type of athlete can win an NCAA title right? *Rolls eyes*
Don't recruit the guys you know you can afford? At least most of us?