990s are often filed year end following. Could be it’s not up on web yet.
Brooks to PSU
- Thread starter therasslinfan
- Start date
They don't have to be negatively recruited, it's out there for everybody to see.
If you want to turn things around, you need to hit the reset button and can TnT. These guys are holding your program hostage. Anything less than that and you're just going to keep spinning your wheels.
I appreciate your level tone in making your case. I was carefully and patiently following your argument until this last paragraph, and I have to say that it sounded like so many euphemisms. "Branding, culture and value proposition" are amorphous, generalized terms that could just as well be used by some slick salesman. What the heck do they mean? Do you really think some kid is going to go to PSU and tell his parents, "I know there's far better money at XYZ school, but, gee, mom and dad, I'm asking you to foot the tuition bill because the PSU brand rocks, and I was blown away by their value proposition! Those were the criteria I was looking for!"
I reject the conspiracy theories of so many of my fellow frustrated Hawk fans. But I think there is more to what's going on to attract these kids than a slick sales pitch. Let's also remember that some kids will be attracted to alternative schools (i.e., other than the most recently successful ones) because they are motivated to be a part of the school(s) that dethrone the champs. As well, Iowa's last few best recruits chose Iowa specifically because of things you have not listed--fan base, world-class coaching, and camaraderie in the room.
That still leaves open the money question, as I've laid out the argument. What is tipping the scales? You and Diceman are obviously intelligent and respectable people. But I think you are grasping at straws, a bit, when you so strongly underplay the fact that PSU is operating on, what, NINE TIMES the money that Iowa is? I choose to believe that the lure of money is a powerful factor in these recent recruiting trends. I am not willing to go to the extreme of saying that PSU currently has "the best team money can buy." (I still reserve that accusation for the NY Yankees!
) Money is not the only story, here. But it sounds suspiciously like it is a much bigger piece of the puzzle than some of you good PSU wrestling fans are willing to admit.
So you're taking everything you know about TnT based on what you've seen on BTN network
Have kept quite while one after another psu fan has come on to rationalize, verbalize, and theorize the number of top wrestlers who are recruited with little or no scholarship money and why it is not a violation to pay college wrestlers, an inflated amount, from a psu affiliated organization. Maybe it is a violation maybe it isn’t and maybe the NCAA rules and regs need to be made more clear. Doesn’t matter. However, I will tell you how Iowa did it with Gable. You would think that based on the psu rational Gable should have had 10 top 20 rated wrestlers each and every year based on his winning not five but TEN NCAA tounaments in a row. He did not! In fact he had less than a third the number that psu has. Therefore using a psu poster’s assertions here that just does not seem to compute. To answer your question Gable did it with coaching and being able to discern the lower rated wrestlers that he could bring into the room and through hard work make them into potential champions. If we count you championships then let’s count Gable’s.
Last edited:
I have to cordially disagree. Tom and Terry have been great for the sport as wrestlers and coaches. If they are so bad then why has every other wrestling program and coach been chasing our program? Even today, it is a HUGE deal to wrestle Iowa. Did you see the crowd that Ohio State brought last week? Penn State fans will turn up in droves against the Hawkeyes as well... We have won national Championships with the Brands Brothers and remained a consistent top 5 team for over a decade.... How can you say they are so bad and must be canned? I think you are trying too hard to troll.
I'm offering you the #1 reason why you have to overpay for kids to wrestle at Iowa. I've seen so many conspiracy theories here, when the obvious answer is right in front of you.
Iowa is a great wrestling program with ridiculous history. Take your program back from those that are holding it hostage. Demand better!
What makes you think Iowa is overpaying for anyone? Has Tom Brands shared the accounting paperwork with you? Have you seen the Scholarship distribution? Do you know something the rest of us don't?
Bob thanks for your first posts and your contribution here. No reset needed for us, clearly just better money management figuratively and literally. You hit the nail on the head. Better value proposition at PSU, thank you.
You obviously have every right to feel that way. Just don't complain when you finish behind OSU and PSU and wonder why it's happening. If you are satisfied with being a top 5 team, by all means, keep them around. Believe me, your "competitors" are loving it.I have to cordially disagree. Tom and Terry have been great for the sport as wrestlers and coaches. If they are so bad then why has every other wrestling program and coach been chasing our program? Even today, it is a HUGE deal to wrestle Iowa. Did you see the crowd that Ohio State brought last week? Penn State fans will turn up in droves against the Hawkeyes as well... We have won national Championships with the Brands Brothers and remained a consistent top 5 team for over a decade.... How can you say they are so bad and must be canned? I think you are trying too hard to troll.
Your name suites you as you are really reaching here. Hawks had a third as many top 20-25 rated wrestlers as psu does now and they won a lot more national chapionships than psu.
Last edited:
Hey look, it's Bob Anderson, another guy making his 4th post ever over here.....See what I mean GoldBanger? Not referring to you, but look at your fans come out of the woodwork to take a shot.
Wait, let me guess Bob, your not a psu fan? Sure, sure, oh and such hurtful comments.
Can discuss this for ever and not accomplish anything.
Only thing I can not understand is why it took so many years for Penn State to finally get where they are.
They have for many decades have the best high school wrestling but not much to show for it.
Just can't understand why all the fans of Penn State claim this and that they fully supported a
program for years that was so so...
Then a big money donor comes along and the Savior Cael and gosh now everyone wants to go to Penn State...
Also I don't know all the rules . Does a ROTC student time starts when they enrow? Just curious Manavile has been there 2 years is he still in redshirt or just waiting to wrestle with his brother in 3 years, and be a 23 year old freshman with his brother who will be 18?
Also doesn't a ROTC student have to serve so many years in the military after graduation?
Only thing I can not understand is why it took so many years for Penn State to finally get where they are.
They have for many decades have the best high school wrestling but not much to show for it.
Just can't understand why all the fans of Penn State claim this and that they fully supported a
program for years that was so so...
Then a big money donor comes along and the Savior Cael and gosh now everyone wants to go to Penn State...
Also I don't know all the rules . Does a ROTC student time starts when they enrow? Just curious Manavile has been there 2 years is he still in redshirt or just waiting to wrestle with his brother in 3 years, and be a 23 year old freshman with his brother who will be 18?
Also doesn't a ROTC student have to serve so many years in the military after graduation?
you would think recruits would go to where their chances of getting world medals.who was the last penn st wrestler to get a senior level medal( olympics or world champs) honestly can not remember now tost and nebby. one more thing just because someone claiming to be brooks dad says iowa never contacted him does not make that a fact.you pissants can comee over with the who me routine over and over it does not matter no one believes you, you are cheating.
The want to be part of something special! nothing wrong with that
Do you people work? 6 pages of back and forth, pretty embarrassing for both sides of the argument. I’m amazed at the number of new posters that I see in this thread. I’m just going to sit back and enjoy Iowa wrestling whether we get back to the top or not. I have to say that this is the most fun I’ve had in the past 6 years watching Iowa wrestling and am looking forward to the studs that we have in the near future. I suggest the PSU faithful do the same with their team.
How do they know they couldn’t afford him??? I think his dad posts from time to time on here and has stated not even a phone call was made to the young man
Ok I have to step to the aid of TnT here (not that they need it). Anyone who thinks they are holding a program back, or hostage as you put it, is delusional.
They are doing a great job. They may not be winning titles, but they run a classy operation and have their hearts n the right place. They are developing kids and have a ton of loyalty from their wrestlers. You don't get that from kids unless you are doing right by them.
There is no "1 simple reason" that PSU is on top and tOSU are on top and the Hawks aren't right now, but you can bet your house that the Brands bros are not part of the problem.
IMHO
You guys are intense! First off, if you are a true wrestling fan? You have to love and appreciate the history of Iowa wrestling! The passion and fan base is awesome. I can tell you PSU is also an outstanding program as is tOSU and Michigan. I think any parent would be pleased if their child could compete on either of those teams. We did hear from an Iowa coach after this board expressed it’s surprise that we did not hear from one, but Aaron really was not recruited by Iowa. What I have learned from this process is that kids are all different and each have different needs. They are going to choose the school they feel the most comfortable with and there are lots of variables that determine that. I have not heard or seen anyone or coach do anything that didn’t follow the NCAA guidelines. Best of luck to the Hawks! Love Spencer Lee! Great kid and wrestler. Keep up the banter! The Iowa and PSU boards are great!!
Thanks for posting and clearing things up. Best of luck to your boy as well.
Do you mean 'you're trying 'too' hard, and 'you're' cheating?
Kids are willing to pay to be a part of a winning program. Look at Wartburg and Augsburg. Team titles put kids on the roster.
Iowa is also a winning program with a great RTC and staff. I think it’s more a matter of fit. The styles, the culture. Iowa is only a few guys away and their upper weights have improved every week. Have a little patience fellas.
You've overstated it, but there's a grain of truth there.
PSU fans seem to want to elevate Cael to mythical proportions because PSU has won national championships in recent years.
To downplay the importance of getting top tier recruits is disingenuous and common with PSU fans. Mark Hall was 'developed' into a true fr national champ through Cael's magic coaching ability. Give me a break.
Each year there are some very elite HS wrestlers... some years the top couple of guys or maybe the top 5-10.... guys that realistically could be multiyear AA's and a good chance at being national champion. David Taylor, Metcalf, Retherford, Varner, and Steveson all fit this description. If you can recruit guys like that, you will be successful, with competent coaching.
Here are the facts....
Cael never won a team championship during his time at ISU, either as an asst coach or head coach. The number of top 10 recruits he got was quite small at ISU, certainly nothing like at PSU.
Fast forward to Cael at PSU. For years now, PSU has been getting multiple top 10 guys. No other school comes close. Surprise.... PSU starts winning championships.
Cael is a good coach, but when you're starting with the best of the best, it's a lot easier to bring home team titles.
Cael has recruited like no one else in wrestling history. That much we know. How he does it is something of a mystery to non PSU fans, so questions arise. And how well kids actually develop under him is not so obvious, at least compared to other top d1 schools.
He is not going to come here for free and Brands has stated we don't have $$$ to spend, that seems pretty clear.
...and to think that last year Cael had 2 freshman, 2 sophomore, and a junior national champs. Just think what will happen when he learns to develop his wrestlers!?
I'm a die hard Hawk fan and alum, and I do agree that there are "way too much sour grapes" coming from a fair amount of Hawk fans. Cael is one of the best wrestlers in US history, and I personally feel as if he effectively "took the baton" from Dan Gable. Every DI school in the country that had a wrestling program "hated" Iowa back in the Gable days, and that's simply because Gable always found a way to win via good talent, discipline and great coaching. I personally don't see anything different with PSU right now. There's a 4x champ and Olympic champ who is a great coach and recruiter. It sucks to say it, but "he's winning", and of course I wish the shoe was on the other foot, but it's not.
At some point in the future, if significant NCAA violations are discovered within the program, then of course my opinion would change, but I simply see it as a program that is out achieving the others, and the other programs have to find a way to "better sell" their program. I've seen it shown here and there a few times in this thread and I do believe wrestlers are a different/unique type of athlete and they will go to a school where they believe they can become a national champion and potentially be a part of a NC team. Right now, that team is PSU....no different than it was during the Gable era.
I'll stop here and I may get buried on this by fellow Hawk fans, but this is just the way I see things right now. Everything in life is about sales, no matter what your occupation is, and right now, Cael is simply doing the most effective job of selling his program and the results are there.
If there was a PSU slush fund, don't ya think Lee's father would have made note of it in the three ring binder he gave to Brands?
Iowa had the top ranked recruiting class this year, and NC State was number one the previous year. Just saying
Or... when Cael came to PSU he came (in his own words) because PSU was far more committed to success than ISU was. Maybe that meant "they gave me a slush fund". Or maybe his success vs his track record at ISU was based on any/all of:
1) he already demonstrated he could land some big fish (David Taylor)
2) there was a natural "buzz" of most accomplished American wrestler coming to most fertile high school recruiting ground
3) Better facilities than ISU
4) Maybe more money for assistants
5) Being the big dog in the East without the immediate competition from the sport's most dominant program just down the road
6) David Taylor's and Ed Ruth's early success and style
7) Riding Taylor and Ruth got early team success that got people excited
8) the Olympic regional training center (maybe ISU had similar - no idea)
9) Maturing as a recruiter/coach
Or maybe PSU is simply slushing their way to success. Or using burner phones.
Last edited:
LOL, they are ugly! The look like an old retro batman TV series modification.
Well, given the fact that Penn State won its first national championship about twenty years before Iowa ever won their first, we could have asked the same question.
But, you know the answer. It's simple: You had Gable and we now have Sanderson.
Fact: Nick Saban NEVER won a championship while he was a head coach at Michigan State.
Similar threads
