Can Joe T be our Davion Mitchell?

[BirdistheWord]

Hahaha

Joe T is one of the biggest enigmas on the squad. His J is terrible. He dribbles the air out the ball.

Certainly some truth to what you are saying, but cherry picked as well. He was one of the only main rotation players that could create his own shot or get to the rim on his own and has the ability to create easy buckets for others. Also, his defense was possibly the best, maybe outside of Keegan's. He still has a lot of work to do, primarily on his shooting and game management/judgement.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Doubtful that JoeT will be the willing outside shooter Mitchell became, but I think he has the tools to do the other things. If he gets starter's minutes, JoeT will have a LOT of assists. For him, the assist/turnover number is going to be the key, and I believe it will get much better, with more experience and minutes. What I want most is for JoeT to also become Mitchell's nickname, "off-night", who opposing guards hope won't be guarding them.

 

[Rambler Hawk]

This is what they said about Davion Mitchell when he transferred out of Auburn, following his freshman year:

Davion Mitchell will be transferring away from the program after a freshman season in which he helped Auburn win its first SEC Championship in nineteen years. Mitchell averaged 3.7 ppg and 1.9 apg in just over seventeen minutes of playing time each game. He became one of the first guys off the bench alongside Malik Dunbar when Jared Harper would take an early breather.

Mitchell’s defense was one of of the bright spots for the Tigers, as he usually took on the opposition’s top offensive player when he came onto the floor, and he played tenaciously in his minutes. His offensive game needed work, as he hit double-digits just twice this year (vs George Mason and vs UConn), and he was usually good for a palming turnover or for an inadvertent foot on the end line. Frustrating at times, he provided a good spark for Auburn when he entered the game.

Who does that sound like?

You make a valid point, although DM had a better pedigree/offers coming out of H.S. but Fran has shown that he has a good eye for talent (but can never seem to land the big fish). Also, obviously DM has a better supporting cast, so its really hard (but fun) to try and compare the two players....

 

[WadeWilson]

I remember Joe T. pulling up at the elbow draining some shots. I think if he slows just a little we could have two players who can really drive or pull up with Perkins being the other.

 

[hooper56]

Joey T is going to be All Big Ten his senior year. The problems we saw this year are the product of trying to do too much in limited playing time. Count me as one on the Joey T bandwagon.

And an undisclosed injury

 

[FBletterman]

1. Similar body types
2. Both elite defenders - bring it on defense/both are absolute dogs
3. Both good playmakers

Obviously, the most glaring weakness of Joe T's game is his outside shot - but his form is there. He shot well from the stripe his freshmen year (83%). The kid just needs reps, more minutes, and trust from Fran, in my opinion. Note that Mitchell shot 28% from 3 his freshmen year, 32% his sophomore (redshirt) year, and finally 44% (!) his junior (redshirt) year - so don't give up on Joe T!

2021-2021, you'll see Joe T shoot 35% from 3 (with 3 attempts per game). You'll see the lane open for him. You'll see his turnovers way down! And You'll see him contend for B10 Defensive Player of the Year!

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Wow watched the Mitchell highlights. His stutter stops dribble and step back and passing is Luka Dosic like. That was sick. If I was Joe T. id watch tape of him relentlessly.

 

[Slim45]

And an undisclosed injury

Yes, didn’t fran say he was 1 that had surgery after season?

 

[Hawksfinal4]

Somewhere I heard thumb but where I heard that I can’t recall

 

[ObeseMuffins]

Somewhere I heard thumb but where I heard that I can’t recall

He had foot surgery.

 

[Eternal Return]

I think Joe T will settle into the PG position more comfortably next year. He'll get a lot more minutes more consistently which will help him improve as the season goes on. I'm not worried about comparisons because I think we've all seen what he can do when he's playing crisp and at his best and that's even without a 3-point shot.

The second half against Gonzaga really sticks out as an example incredible of how good Joe can be when he's in a zone. If he can do that more consistently, not every game but maybe more than half the games, the team will be pretty good. Pacing, turnovers, and fouls have been his big problems, but those are problems younger players often have. Time on the court is the best teacher and I expect him to be playing really well by mudseason.

If not, hopefully Ulis makes a jump. He looked lost against Oregon, but everyone but Garza looked lost in that game, so who knows?

 

[sbhawk64]

1. Similar body types
2. Both elite defenders - bring it on defense/both are absolute dogs
3. Both good playmakers

Obviously, the most glaring weakness of Joe T's game is his outside shot - but his form is there. He shot well from the stripe his freshmen year (83%). The kid just needs reps, more minutes, and trust from Fran, in my opinion. Note that Mitchell shot 28% from 3 his freshmen year, 32% his sophomore (redshirt) year, and finally 44% (!) his junior (redshirt) year - so don't give up on Joe T!

2021-2021, you'll see Joe T shoot 35% from 3 (with 3 attempts per game). You'll see the lane open for him. You'll see his turnovers way down! And You'll see him contend for B10 Defensive Player of the Year!

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JT's glaring weaknesses he gives up a turnover 30 percent of the time and he falls down a lot. His strength is he does both of those very fast

 

[Jaycg15]

Mitchell is also a senior and joeT a soph. If we’re going to compare them, go back and compare their seasons by the grade they were in. Going off their frosh yrs, joeT actually had a better season. Can’t compare soph yrs bc mitchell transfered

What stats are you looking at? Do people even fact-check claims like this? Literally the only stat that he's better on is his assist rate, and that's at the expense of a 7% worse TO rate (which is huge).

Player	ORtg	PPG	TS%	AST	A Rate	TOV	TO Rate	Stl%	FC/40	2PM-A	3PM-A	BPM	WS/40
Toussaint	92.4	6.5	47.8	2.9	34.1	2.0	28.3	3.8*	5.5	39-88	3-11	1.4	.077
Mitchell (So)	100.5	9.9	50.3	3.8	22.3	2.2	21.7	2.7	3.4	71-152	34-105	4.6	.129
Mitchell (Sr)	121.9	14.1	61.9	5.5	27.7	2.4	20.2	3.3	2.9	95-168	63-141	10.2	.216

*didn't play enough to be ranked via KenPom for this stat.

The only way that Toussaint becomes Mitchell is if he develops his offense significantly, and I mean an astronomical development. It would be a big step if Toussaint became sophomore Mitchell on offense. Mitchell took an enormous step between his RS SO and RS Jr seasons. Toussaint would have to take a big step and an enormous one after to become that good.

 

[Slim45]

What stats are you looking at? Do people even fact-check claims like this? Literally the only stat that he's better on is his assist rate, and that's at the expense of a 7% worse TO rate (which is huge).

Player	ORtg	PPG	TS%	AST	A Rate	TOV	TO Rate	Stl%	FC/40	2PM-A	3PM-A	BPM	WS/40
Toussaint	92.4	6.5	47.8	2.9	34.1	2.0	28.3	3.8*	5.5	39-88	3-11	1.4	.077
Mitchell (So)	100.5	9.9	50.3	3.8	22.3	2.2	21.7	2.7	3.4	71-152	34-105	4.6	.129
Mitchell (Sr)	121.9	14.1	61.9	5.5	27.7	2.4	20.2	3.3	2.9	95-168	63-141	10.2	.216

*didn't play enough to be ranked via KenPom for this stat.

The only way that Toussaint becomes Mitchell is if he develops his offense significantly, and I mean an astronomical development. It would be a big step if Toussaint became sophomore Mitchell on offense. Mitchell took an enormous step between his RS SO and RS Jr seasons. Toussaint would have to take a big step and an enormous one after to become that good.

Mitchell’s first yr: 2017-2018 MPG:17
Ppg:3.7 ast:1.9 reb:1.1
Fg%:43% 3pt%:28% FT%:67% to’s:1.1

JoeT first yr 2019-2020 MPG:17.9
Ppg:6.5 ast:2.9 reb:2.0
Fg%:38% 3pt%:29.7% FT%:83% to’s:2

so, like I said, joeT’s frosh year statistically was better. And if you...DID YOUR RESEARCH, you’d have noticed that mitchell’s first year was 17-18 and his 2nd yr was 19-20...bc he transferred and didnt play, therefore you cant actually compare their 2nd year stats bc mitchell had an extra year of development where he wasn’t playing in games.
joeT obviously has a long way to go to get on mitchell’s level, but don’t act like mitchell was lightyears ahead of joe at that point in his career!

 

[Jaycg15]

Mitchell’s first yr: 2017-2018 MPG:17
Ppg:3.7 ast:1.9 reb:1.1
Fg%:43% 3pt%:28% FT%:67% to’s:1.1

JoeT first yr 2019-2020 MPG:17.9
Ppg:6.5 ast:2.9 reb:2.0
Fg%:38% 3pt%:29.7% FT%:83% to’s:2

so, like I said, joeT’s frosh year statistically was better. And if you...DID YOUR RESEARCH, you’d have noticed that mitchell’s first year was 17-18 and his 2nd yr was 19-20...bc he transferred and didnt play, therefore you cant actually compare their 2nd year stats bc mitchell had an extra year of development where he wasn’t playing in games.
joeT obviously has a long way to go to get on mitchell’s level, but don’t act like mitchell was lightyears ahead of joe at that point in his career!

Ah, you did say frosh. I’d argue going back a year to compare stats is maybe dumber. In any event, the analytics still prefer Mitchell. Toussaint is bad on offense.

And if you did your research, you’d see I said RS Sophomore. It’s about a completely moronic exercise since everyone here knows Joe T is not becoming Mitchell, but I understand why the fantasy exists with this roster.

 

[Slim45]

Ah, you did say frosh. I’d argue going back a year to compare stats is maybe dumber. In any event, the analytics still prefer Mitchell. Toussaint is bad on offense.

And if you did your research, you’d see I said RS Sophomore. It’s about a completely moronic exercise since everyone here knows Joe T is not becoming Mitchell, but I understand why the fantasy exists with this roster.

Id imagine if you went back to mitchell’s frosh year at auburn everyone was saying he wouldn’t become this good either. Players get better! “The analytics still prefer mitchell, toussaint is bad on offense”? See, thats just a stupid statement because you aren’t comparing each at the same points in their careers! Mitchell was garbage on offense his first year too!

 

[Jaycg15]

Id imagine if you went back to mitchell’s frosh year at auburn everyone was saying he wouldn’t become this good either. Players get better! “The analytics still prefer mitchell, toussaint is bad on offense”? See, thats just a stupid statement because you aren’t comparing each at the same points in their careers! Mitchell was garbage on offense his first year too!

The analytics offer Mitchell freshman year vs freshman year. Mitchell was more efficient offensively across the board outside of turnovers. His Orating is significantly higher. Toussaint’s counting stats are a product of higher volume at lower efficiency.

 

[Slim45]

The analytics offer Mitchell freshman year vs freshman year. Mitchell was more efficient offensively across the board outside of turnovers. His Orating is significantly higher. Toussaint’s counting stats are a product of higher volume at lower efficiency.

The analytics you put in your first post are not Mitchell’s frosh yr. i posted mitchell’s stats from his frosh yr, strait off espn. JoeT avg’d more in every category in only .9mpg more. Idk why you keep beating this drum like joeT was so much worse offensively his frosh yr when the stats obviously don’t back that up.

 

[Jaycg15]

The analytics you put in your first post are not Mitchell’s frosh yr. i posted mitchell’s stats from his frosh yr, strait off espn. JoeT avg’d more in every category in only .9mpg more. Idk why you keep beating this drum like joeT was so much worse offensively his frosh yr when the stats obviously don’t back that up.

Yes, I’m not sure how many times I need to mention that I'm referencing freshman stats for you to understand that I'm comparing their freshman stats. And just so we're clear here, minutes isn't volume. Here you go to end this ignorance:

Player	ORtg	%Poss	eFG%	TS%	A Rate	TO Rate	2PM-A	3PM-A
Mitchell	99.5	13.5	50.0	52.6	18.4	26.3	30-53	15-52
Toussaint	93.5	25.3	40.8	47.7	29.3	25.2	57-143	11-37

Their playstyles were completely different. Toussaint dominated the ball, couldn't shoot from 3 efficiently, couldn't score at the rim efficiently, and couldn't take care of the ball. Mitchell shot the ball from 3 twice as frequently at a comparable percentage, couldn't take care of the ball, wasn't a primary ballhandler, but was much more efficient in his role. They're not similar except for their builds, and Mitchell is significantly longer, 2 in taller, and 20 lb heavier.

 

[Slim45]

Yes, I’m not sure how many times I need to mention that I'm referencing freshman stats for you to understand that I'm comparing their freshman stats. And just so we're clear here, minutes isn't volume. Here you go to end this ignorance:

Player	ORtg	%Poss	eFG%	TS%	A Rate	TO Rate	2PM-A	3PM-A
Mitchell	99.5	13.5	50.0	52.6	18.4	26.3	30-53	15-52
Toussaint	93.5	25.3	40.8	47.7	29.3	25.2	57-143	11-37

Their playstyles were completely different. Toussaint dominated the ball, couldn't shoot from 3 efficiently, couldn't score at the rim efficiently, and couldn't take care of the ball. Mitchell shot the ball from 3 twice as frequently at a comparable percentage, couldn't take care of the ball, wasn't a primary ballhandler, but was much more efficient in his role. They're not similar except for their builds, and Mitchell is significantly longer, 2 in taller, and 20 lb heavier.

Your first post is quite different than this one. I mean it actually says (rs soph) under his name in post 1. Idk i guess i would rather look at actual production, joeT scored more points, created more points for others, got more rebounds, more steals, turned it over less. But i guess if it says he wasn’t as efficient in doing so then idk what to say.

 

[Jaycg15]

Your first post is quite different than this one. I mean it actually says (rs soph) under his name in post 1. Idk i guess i would rather look at actual production, joeT scored more points, created more points for others, got more rebounds, more steals, turned it over less. But i guess if it says he wasn’t as efficient in doing so then idk what to say.

"Actual production"? So you're telling me if a guy shot the ball 100 times and scored 10 times, you'd rather have that than a guy that shot 10 times and scored 9? I think that says everything we need to know about your grasp on stats.

Iowa was scoring at 117 points per 100 possessions and Toussaint drug the team down to 94 points per 100 possessions. Meanwhile, Mitchell was at 100 points per 100 possessions while his team scored at 115 per 100 possessions. Toussaint's offense was worse. It's glaringly obvious.

 

[Slim45]

"Actual production"? So you're telling me if a guy shot the ball 100 times and scored 10 times, you'd rather have that than a guy that shot 10 times and scored 9? I think that says everything we need to know about your grasp on stats.

Iowa was scoring at 117 points per 100 possessions and Toussaint drug the team down to 94 points per 100 possessions. Meanwhile, Mitchell was at 100 points per 100 possessions while his team scored at 115 per 100 possessions. Toussaint's offense was worse. It's glaringly obvious.

Lol, what?! What im saying is, joeT avg’d more ppg, more apg, more rpg, less to’s, in the same minutes with very similar fg%‘s. You go ahead and look at the analytics, ill look at the “old-fahsioned” stats. I really don’t understand how you say his offense was glaringly worse when he avg’d more in literally every category.

 

[ObeseMuffins]

I love where this thread has been taken.

 

[Jaycg15]

Lol, what?! What im saying is, joeT avg’d more ppg, more apg, more rpg, less to’s, in the same minutes with very similar fg%‘s. You go ahead and look at the analytics, ill look at the “old-fahsioned” stats. I really don’t understand how you say his offense was glaringly worse when he avg’d more in literally every category.

Lol I'm pissing into the wind trying to explain stats to you apparently. I'll try a few different methods. Maybe one will make sense.

You're looking at a per game basis. They played a different amount of possessions in those games. They also actively participated in a different amount of possessions. Joe T used more possession, but if we look at how they performed at a similar amount of possessions, Joe T was worse. It took Joe T more shots to score his points. The offense was astronomically worse with Joe T in the game.

Answer this question, would you rather score 100 points if I told you that you only got 100 possessions or 94 points with those 100 possessions? If you want to be 6 points worse, you'd choose Joe T. Or how about your team will score 117+ points on 100 possessions, but if you put in Joe T, you'll only score 94. That's the reality. Your team was >23 points per 100 possessions worse with Joe T on the court. We can do the same for Davion Mitchell. He was worth 100 points per 100 possessions while his team averaged 115 points per 100 possessions. 15 points worse with him on the court.

The per game stat is useless. Coaches don't use them anymore for good reason. They don't account for how efficient someone is. Joe T dominated the ball which is why his per game stats are higher, and he did so more inefficiently. Mitchell played off the ball and converted more efficiently when given the chance. That's the difference.

Your argument is akin to asking which vehicle is more efficient an F150 with a 50 gallon gas tank that can go 600 miles vs a Camry with a 15 gallon tank that can go 450. You're saying, "The truck drove 600 miles. It's obviously superior to the Camry." Well yeah, it drove further, but it took 50 gallons to get there while the Camry could do that with 20 gallons.

Old-fashioned stats are worthless outside of fantasy leagues and conversations for those who don't know any better.

 

[Slim45]

Lol I'm pissing into the wind trying to explain stats to you apparently. I'll try a few different methods. Maybe one will make sense.

You're looking at a per game basis. They played a different amount of possessions in those games. They also actively participated in a different amount of possessions. Joe T used more possession, but if we look at how they performed at a similar amount of possessions, Joe T was worse. It took Joe T more shots to score his points. The offense was astronomically worse with Joe T in the game.

Answer this question, would you rather score 100 points if I told you that you only got 100 possessions or 94 points with those 100 possessions? If you want to be 6 points worse, you'd choose Joe T. Or how about your team will score 117+ points on 100 possessions, but if you put in Joe T, you'll only score 94. That's the reality. Your team was >23 points per 100 possessions worse with Joe T on the court. We can do the same for Davion Mitchell. He was worth 100 points per 100 possessions while his team averaged 115 points per 100 possessions. 15 points worse with him on the court.

The per game stat is useless. Coaches don't use them anymore for good reason. They don't account for how efficient someone is. Joe T dominated the ball which is why his per game stats are higher, and he did so more inefficiently. Mitchell played off the ball and converted more efficiently when given the chance. That's the difference.

Your argument is akin to asking which vehicle is more efficient an F150 with a 50 gallon gas tank that can go 600 miles vs a Camry with a 15 gallon tank that can go 450. You're saying, "The truck drove 600 miles. It's obviously superior to the Camry." Well yeah, it drove further, but it took 50 gallons to get there while the Camry could do that with 20 gallons.

Old-fashioned stats are worthless outside of fantasy leagues and conversations for those who don't know any better.

use your analytics, idgaf. But to say joeT’s offense was glaringly worse compared to Mitchell’s frosh yr is just wrong. Idc how you spin it.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Lol I'm pissing into the wind trying to explain stats to you apparently. I'll try a few different methods. Maybe one will make sense.

You're looking at a per game basis. They played a different amount of possessions in those games. They also actively participated in a different amount of possessions. Joe T used more possession, but if we look at how they performed at a similar amount of possessions, Joe T was worse. It took Joe T more shots to score his points. The offense was astronomically worse with Joe T in the game.

Answer this question, would you rather score 100 points if I told you that you only got 100 possessions or 94 points with those 100 possessions? If you want to be 6 points worse, you'd choose Joe T. Or how about your team will score 117+ points on 100 possessions, but if you put in Joe T, you'll only score 94. That's the reality. Your team was >23 points per 100 possessions worse with Joe T on the court. We can do the same for Davion Mitchell. He was worth 100 points per 100 possessions while his team averaged 115 points per 100 possessions. 15 points worse with him on the court.

The per game stat is useless. Coaches don't use them anymore for good reason. They don't account for how efficient someone is. Joe T dominated the ball which is why his per game stats are higher, and he did so more inefficiently. Mitchell played off the ball and converted more efficiently when given the chance. That's the difference.

Your argument is akin to asking which vehicle is more efficient an F150 with a 50 gallon gas tank that can go 600 miles vs a Camry with a 15 gallon tank that can go 450. You're saying, "The truck drove 600 miles. It's obviously superior to the Camry." Well yeah, it drove further, but it took 50 gallons to get there while the Camry could do that with 20 gallons.

Old-fashioned stats are worthless outside of fantasy leagues and conversations for those who don't know any better.

You must be really bored to care this much about a silly comparison made on another team’s fan site

 

[Jaycg15]

use your analytics, idgaf. But to say joeT’s offense was glaringly worse compared to Mitchell’s frosh yr is just wrong. Idc how you spin it.

"Use facts. Idgaf. I've got my feelings."

 

[Jaycg15]

You must be really bored to care this much about a silly comparison made on another team’s fan site

Me posting here over inane sports discussion is different from you replying to my post with inane discussion how?

 

[Booty Maximus]

I was told he's the next Ayo Dosunmu, now I find out instead he's the next Davion Mitchell? I'd like the request a refund, please.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Me posting here over inane sports discussion is different from you replying to my post with inane discussion how?

Well for starters, my post wasn’t attempted discussion

 

[Jaycg15]

Well for starters, my post wasn’t attempted discussion

Yet here we are. How's your day going?