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Christian End Times Theology and Unconditional Support of Israel

Oct 20, 2004
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Would the United States be nearly as partisan in favor of Israel if not for some Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends?

I say no. That's that aspect of Christianity we don't pay attention to when we act like all the problems in the Middle East are just because of the Muslims. A lot of evangelicals are completely in favor of more Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
 
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Well, let's examine the history to see where we are today...

In the lead up to World War 1, the various ethnicities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and Eastern Europe in general) all wanted autonomy or independence. All of them had a fairly obvious region for a new state to spring up except the Jewish people in the empire. The question of a Jewish homeland arose in the context of European nationalism at that time, and the concept of a Jewish state in Israel/Palestine became popular because it was logical based on history and it appealed to religious fervor. Even many Christians were enthusiastic about the idea because they believed the Jews needed to return to Israel to bring about the End Times and the Second Coming of Christ.

With the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the war, most of the former ethnic minorities got their own state. The Ottoman Empire had also collapsed and been reshaped by France and Britain. The area of Israel/Palestine was under British control, and the Brits promised both the Palestinians and Jews a state there. European Jews had been immigrating to the area for a while, but under British control the immigration increased massively. Obviously, a huge part of the reason was the European anti-Semitism that met its fullest expression in the Holocaust.

The Palestinian Arabs had developed their own national consciencious through their struggles for independence with the Ottomans and British. (Some people try to downplay their distinctions from other Arabs, but if we follow that logic it's hard not to say that Ukrainians are just a kind of Russian). Their society was changing rapidly due to massive immigration of people with a Western lifestyle, and the Palestinians were afraid of losing control of their homeland to the newcomers. One of the major differences of course was religion. Conflict tends to bring those kind of differences to the forefront, and the Palestinians who felt like things were slipping away became more receptive to the extremist interpretations of Islam that were being pushed by the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabi House of Saud had been given control of Arabia for helping to take down the Ottomans.

When the Palestinians were unhappy with the partition plan that created Israel, they fought back with the help of other Arab nations and were crushed. The entire Middle East knew it was under the thumb of the West, and so for a lot of people, appealing to Allah began to seem like the only way out. Wahabbism, extremist Shiism in Iran, etc. all became powerful forces in that environment, and the West's game (including the Russians) of arming various groups and playing them off against each other has only served to make an already bad situation worse. Propping up brutal dictators in order to get favorable oil deals has also been influential in turning public perception in the Middle East against the West.

So you may be saying, ok, I knew all that, but why is it important?

The Right insists that the only way to deal with the problem is to call it what it is: Islamic terrorism, radical Islam, extremist Islam, etc. And all of those terms do describe groups like ISIS and al Qaeda. They're right in that regard. But WHY do they insist on using those labels?

The reason is that the Right wants to put the problems with radical Islam today in the same context as historical struggles between the Islamic world and the Christian West from the Middle Ages. In other words, they let the terrorists dictate how we view the context. This allows them to completely dismiss our missteps, continue the same failed policies, and play off people's fears to paint the enemy as the big, bad Islamic bogeyman who has always been trying to get us. End Times theology and other Christian beliefs about God's relationship with the Jews also play a role in how a lot of Christians feel about the situation in the Middle East and what course we should take. And since we only see that THEY attacked US and we don't think they're ever going to stop, why shouldn't Israel just build another settlement in the West Bank? Why should we trust Muslims at all?

Solutions don't come from two sides trying to move to the extremes. Of course we don't want to find common ground with terrorists, but we need to find a way to truly develop a better relationship with the Islamic world and support liberalizing forces in the region. I hope we don't really need the end of the world to make the region stable.
 
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then explain please why the left is obsessed with islam lately under Obama? the arab spring, the fake killing of bin laden, the drone strikes.
 
then explain please why the left is obsessed with islam lately under Obama? the arab spring, the fake killing of bin laden, the drone strikes.

The overarching issue isn't really Islam. It's political violence with a religious coloring that's attractive to true believer types. That's not to say they don't actually believe it, but their motives are political.

We can't keep framing it like they represent Islam. If both the West and terrorists define Islam the same extremist way, normal Muslims don't have a lot of allies and the chaos is bound to continue.
 
The overarching issue isn't really Islam. It's political violence with a religious coloring that's attractive to true believer types. That's not to say they don't actually believe it, but their motives are political.

We can't keep framing it like they represent Islam. If both the West and terrorists define Islam the same extremist way, normal Muslims don't have a lot of allies and the chaos is bound to continue.
ohhh, I agree. but when Obama overthrew Egypt and Libya and installed radical types who were political monsters who were muslims, muslim brotherhood, then the people threw those types out basically, then Obama invented isis to come over here and be a boogey man and shoot up san Bernardino, so we would surrender our guns, then we still have politicians hiding behind islam. look, you are on the right track here, but it's not about Christians and Israel as much as it's about the takeover of the world, one world government. mostly that is a leftist thing. it's more about leftism and communism, hiding behind islam. the right, by nature, is supposed to want left government. I know they don't show it always.
 
this is not a conspiracy theory: "Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends"

this is a conspiracy theory: " it's not about Christians and Israel as much as it's about the takeover of the world, one world government"

see, we are both talking about a one world deal, just one group wants commies and mankind to rule over it, the other group wants god to do it
 
this is not a conspiracy theory: "Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends"

this is a conspiracy theory: " it's not about Christians and Israel as much as it's about the takeover of the world, one world government"

see, we are both talking about a one world deal, just one group wants commies and mankind to rule over it, the other group wants god to do it

The terrorists have a lot of people that sympathize with their general principles. You are the Western equivalent to that.

The Left wants humanity to try to solve problems on its own without trying to force God's hand.
 
The terrorists have a lot of people that sympathize with their general principles. You are the Western equivalent to that.

The Left wants humanity to try to solve problems on its own without trying to force God's hand.
you think the right is arrogant enough to think they can force god's hand? I guess the left and the media thinks man can change the climate, so I guess maybe they think man can force god's hand.
 
I'm talking about Christians who had a specific goal to support a Jewish state in Israel/Palestine based on an interpretation of the Bible where the Jews need to return in order to bring about the end of the world.

You're talking about people who are concerned about not being good stewards of the environment.
 
Would the United States be nearly as partisan in favor of Israel if not for some Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends?

I say no. That's that aspect of Christianity we don't pay attention to when we act like all the problems in the Middle East are just because of the Muslims. A lot of evangelicals are completely in favor of more Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
Some years ago I ran into an argument to the effect that the US has assumed the mantel of being God's Chosen People. Something about unquestionably backing Israel being a necessary ingredient. As if Israel has become part of America, and we all now count as God's Chosen because of that.
 
I'm talking about Christians who had a specific goal to support a Jewish state in Israel/Palestine based on an interpretation of the Bible where the Jews need to return in order to bring about the end of the world.

You're talking about people who are concerned about not being good stewards of the environment.
I thought these were all the same extremist, dangerous people.
 
Some years ago I ran into an argument to the effect that the US has assumed the mantel of being God's Chosen People. Something about unquestionably backing Israel being a necessary ingredient. As if Israel has become part of America, and we all now count as God's Chosen because of that.

It's what I call American Christian Nationalism. We're a "Christian nation" and we have a "Judeo-Christian heritage". The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution are seen almost as appendices to the Bible and are interpreted in the same style. Our national heroes are viewed almost like heroes of the Old Testament. The European takeover of the New World is celebrated like the entry of the Hebrews into the Promised Land in Joshua.
 
Some years ago I ran into an argument to the effect that the US has assumed the mantel of being God's Chosen People. Something about unquestionably backing Israel being a necessary ingredient. As if Israel has become part of America, and we all now count as God's Chosen because of that.
I run into that argument daily. I make it, and hagee makes it, and Hannity , and so on. beck. a lot of people, alex jones.

most patriots truly believe that when the founders made the construct of these several states - that it was with god's blessing

I've heard people state that god had a hand in killing off "the evils" in WW2, to let godly America and the west survive and thrive
 
It's what I call American Christian Nationalism. We're a "Christian nation" and we have a "Judeo-Christian heritage". The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution are seen almost as appendices to the Bible and are interpreted in the same style. Our national heroes are viewed almost like heroes of the Old Testament.
this. and what is wrong with it? this is truth
 
End Times beliefs are among the most dangerous religious delusions.
of course it's dangerous because it's true, it's dangerous to life as we know it because look around you , it's happening, it's very dangerous to this current state of statism, because it will be destroyed
 
I want anybody to please tell me why, in WW2, the WW2 cemetaries in france have unknown soldiers' graves marked with a cross? please explain it?? how do the frogs know they were not atheists that they buried? why not just do a standard memorial, no cross?

image.jpg
 
Well, let's examine the history to see where we are today...

In the lead up to World War 1, the various ethnicities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and Eastern Europe in general) all wanted autonomy or independence. All of them had a fairly obvious region for a new state to spring up except the Jewish people in the empire. The question of a Jewish homeland arose in the context of European nationalism at that time, and the concept of a Jewish state in Israel/Palestine became popular because it was logical based on history and it appealed to religious fervor. Even many Christians were enthusiastic about the idea because they believed the Jews needed to return to Israel to bring about the End Times and the Second Coming of Christ.

With the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the war, most of the former ethnic minorities got their own state. The Ottoman Empire had also collapsed and been reshaped by France and Britain. The area of Israel/Palestine was under British control, and the Brits promised both the Palestinians and Jews a state there. European Jews had been immigrating to the area for a while, but under British control the immigration increased massively. Obviously, a huge part of the reason was the European anti-Semitism that met its fullest expression in the Holocaust.

The Palestinian Arabs had developed their own national consciencious through their struggles for independence with the Ottomans and British. (Some people try to downplay their distinctions from other Arabs, but if we follow that logic it's hard not to say that Ukrainians are just a kind of Russian). Their society was changing rapidly due to massive immigration of people with a Western lifestyle, and the Palestinians were afraid of losing control of their homeland to the newcomers. One of the major differences of course was religion. Conflict tends to bring those kind of differences to the forefront, and the Palestinians who felt like things were slipping away became more receptive to the extremist interpretations of Islam that were being pushed by the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabi House of Saud had been given control of Arabia for helping to take down the Ottomans.

When the Palestinians were unhappy with the partition plan that created Israel, they fought back with the help of other Arab nations and were crushed. The entire Middle East knew it was under the thumb of the West, and so for a lot of people, appealing to Allah began to seem like the only way out. Wahabbism, extremist Shiism in Iran, etc. all became powerful forces in that environment, and the West's game (including the Russians) of arming various groups and playing them off against each other has only served to make an already bad situation worse. Propping up brutal dictators in order to get favorable oil deals has also been influential in turning public perception in the Middle East against the West.

So you may be saying, ok, I knew all that, but why is it important?

The Right insists that the only way to deal with the problem is to call it what it is: Islamic terrorism, radical Islam, extremist Islam, etc. And all of those terms do describe groups like ISIS and al Qaeda. They're right in that regard. But WHY do they insist on using those labels?

The reason is that the Right wants to put the problems with radical Islam today in the same context as historical struggles between the Islamic world and the Christian West from the Middle Ages. In other words, they let the terrorists dictate how we view the context. This allows them to completely dismiss our missteps, continue the same failed policies, and play off people's fears to paint the enemy as the big, bad Islamic bogeyman who has always been trying to get us. End Times theology and other Christian beliefs about God's relationship with the Jews also play a role in how a lot of Christians feel about the situation in the Middle East and what course we should take. And since we only see that THEY attacked US and we don't think they're ever going to stop, why shouldn't Israel just build another settlement in the West Bank? Why should we trust Muslims at all?

Solutions don't come from two sides trying to move to the extremes. Of course we don't want to find common ground with terrorists, but we need to find a way to truly develop a better relationship with the Islamic world and support liberalizing forces in the region. I hope we don't really need the end of the world to make the region stable.
Would the United States be nearly as partisan in favor of Israel if not for some Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends?

I say no. That's that aspect of Christianity we don't pay attention to when we act like all the problems in the Middle East are just because of the Muslims. A lot of evangelicals are completely in favor of more Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
Since I lived through the founding of Israel I would argue with your idea that the Evangelicals, End times Theology etc. were prominent in its founding. It was more the idea that after the horror of the Holocaust that the Jews needed a place to call their own if they wanted one . and originally it was proposed by some foreign leaders to be somewhere else. Naturally the Jews wanted to return to the Holy Land. Evangelicals took little notice of Israel until they started to become politicized. Prior to that Evangelicals and conservative Christians thought politics were something not for them. If any part of the Christian world was supportive of the founding of a Jewish state it was the more "liberal" mainstream denominational leaders. Now they offer some criticism of some of Israel's policies, and now the Evangelicals and conservative Christians are claiming to be the the main supporters, but there at the founding, I say no,
You must be new here if you are surprised by a certain poster's conspiracy theories.
 
Because you're blaspheming the Church by putting the nation in its place. The combination of religion and government corrupts both, especially in the hands of man.
what? this is one nation, under god. the left blasphemes the church by putting the government, their religion, the religion of atheists is government, leftist government..... over the one true god. the combination of leftists and government, corrupts nations.
 
Since I lived through the founding of Israel I would argue with your idea that the Evangelicals, End times Theology etc. were prominent in its founding. It was more the idea that after the horror of the Holocaust that the Jews needed a place to call their own if they wanted one . and originally it was proposed by some foreign leaders to be somewhere else. Naturally the Jews wanted to return to the Holy Land. Evangelicals took little notice of Israel until they started to become politicized. Prior to that Evangelicals and conservative Christians thought politics were something not for them. If any part of the Christian world was supportive of the founding of a Jewish state it was the more "liberal" mainstream denominational leaders. Now they offer some criticism of some of Israel's policies, and now the Evangelicals and conservative Christians are claiming to be the the main supporters, but there at the founding, I say no,
You must be new here if you are surprised by a certain poster's conspiracy theories.
yes, and you speak about the founding of the political , physical boundaries of Israel. I think the op might be talking about the biblical outlines, I think I may be talking about both.
 
I want anybody to please tell me why, in WW2, the WW2 cemetaries in france have unknown soldiers' graves marked with a cross? please explain it?? how do the frogs know they were not atheists that they buried? why not just do a standard memorial, no cross?

image.jpg

Do you really not understand why? We all know why.

The point is that we need to quit interpreting current events as a religious war and try to see the broader context.
 
we know why? why was it politically correct in the 1940's and not 2016? to show a dang cross? do we know why?
 
"The point is that we need to quit interpreting current events as a religious war and try to see the broader context."

I agree 100%. And the broader context is a communist leftist takeover of the world, a new world order. Hiding as muslim extremism.
 
Would the United States be nearly as partisan in favor of Israel if not for some Christians believing that the Jews have a special relationship with God and need to return to Israel before the world ends?

I say no. That's that aspect of Christianity we don't pay attention to when we act like all the problems in the Middle East are just because of the Muslims. A lot of evangelicals are completely in favor of more Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Someone needs to do a little (lot) more reading to educate them self on religious beliefs.
 
I don't most people are fully aware of the consequences of their beliefs. If it's from their religion, they see it as obviously good.
we can see the consequences of the beliefs of those who worship the state, over the last decade or so. we can see how it has been destructive to the republic
 
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