One thing I have noticed this year is that we don't push people out of bounds at the edge of the mat anymore a la Metcalf. That has always been kind of an Iowa thing. Has there been a coaching philosophy change or is it just that this group of wrestler's have a slightly different mentality?
Coaching Philosophy Change?
- Thread starter Wink8
- Start date
Adopt freestyle pushout rule & problem solved. Single best, objective rule that could be added to folkstyle.
I am not naive & think this would soley favor us. It would bring more action & favor better conditioned athletes. Both huge pluses in my book.
I am not naive & think this would soley favor us. It would bring more action & favor better conditioned athletes. Both huge pluses in my book.
My issue with this rule is that, correct me if I am wrong, in FS the first foot out is a point against and usually results in a restart, currently in folk, some of the best action occurs at or near the edge. The current rules allow a guy to play the edge, which results in opponents taking more chances on the edge, which results is some of the best action during matches.
I like the OOB rules how they are currently.
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They changed the rule to stalling if you push someone out of bounds, unless you make a futile attempt at the leg and then apparently it is stalling on the defensive wrestler backing straight oob. I swear wrestling is almost like basketball anymore with the particular style of the ref having a huge effect on the game/match. I coached wrestling and football until my girls started competing, and now I coach softball and basketball. I have been coaching basketball for 6 years and I still don't understand what a foul is and isn't and I don't think the refs do either. This is where wrestling seems to be going. No one seems to be able to make a decision on what a takedown, stalling, or defensive fall is?
The push or step out rule is long over due. Here's the NCAA wrestling rules committee members - don't expect much from this crew:
These are the current rules which are needlessly complicated and read exactly like they were written as a compromise by a weak-kneed committee members:
Rule 5.9.2
Each wrestler must attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match. When wrestling is stopped in the neutral standing position for going out of bounds, one of the following three calls shall be made:a) stalling on one or both wrestlers for leaving the wrestling area; b) stalling for pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds; or c) wrestling action is taking place.
Rule 5.9.2.5
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds is stalling.
I'd just go with a step out rule in neutral position. The current rules allows the refs to do nothing, something they're very good at.
Mark Branch, University of Wyoming
Kevin Jackson, Iowa State University
Matt Valenti, University of Pennsylvania Senior Associate Athletics Director
Jason Coomer, Southern Illinois University Edwardsville
Jason Warthan, University of Indianapolis Great Lakes Valley Conference AUG 2019
Lars Jensen, San Francisco State University
Brad Bruhn, State University of New York at Cortland Empire Collegiate Wrestling
Lonnie Morris, Johnson & Wales University (RI)
Kevin Jackson, Iowa State University
Matt Valenti, University of Pennsylvania Senior Associate Athletics Director
Jason Coomer, Southern Illinois University Edwardsville
Jason Warthan, University of Indianapolis Great Lakes Valley Conference AUG 2019
Lars Jensen, San Francisco State University
Brad Bruhn, State University of New York at Cortland Empire Collegiate Wrestling
Lonnie Morris, Johnson & Wales University (RI)
Rule 5.9.2
Each wrestler must attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match. When wrestling is stopped in the neutral standing position for going out of bounds, one of the following three calls shall be made:a) stalling on one or both wrestlers for leaving the wrestling area; b) stalling for pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds; or c) wrestling action is taking place.
Rule 5.9.2.5
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds is stalling.
I'd just go with a step out rule in neutral position. The current rules allows the refs to do nothing, something they're very good at.
I wonder sometimes if REF'S even understand what stalling is.
Good find on the rules committee. I had no idea half those schools even had wrestling teams.
This makes no sense. Put somebody on the rules committee that is actually in the top 10 in the wrestling world. We are allowing coaches that are not even in the mix or at the level that the top teams are making the rules. It should be guys like Brands, Sanderson, Smith, Davis, etc.
Good point. This is the only argument for not adopting the step out rule. But I still think overall, thecurrent freestyle rules have it right.
To be fair, Iowa State doesn't seem to know they have one either.
Only in an Okie State envisioned dystopia should pushing someone out of bounds be considered stalling. But there is no doubt instantly backing to the edge so the other guy even has a chance of pushing you out is stalling 100% of the time. (cough cough) Mark Branch & Kevin Jackson (cough cough)
They call one of these nowadays and not the other.
They call one of these nowadays and not the other.
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I agree that is where a lot of the best action happens now, but it doesn't have to be that way. That happens because the rules reward it. Guys avoid taking risks until they are close to OOB in case something goes wrong, or they wrestle the whole match close to the OOB so they can scoot out.
Adding a push out rule won't get rid of the action, it pushes it towards the middle. If any thing it increases action because if you give up a push out and are now down 1, you have to actually start to wrestle.
No offense but the push out rule creates way more action than what we currently have. I question if you watch much freestyle? Probably the most action in the match occurs on the edge. The current rules are terrible. No official calls it the same and it is almost always ruled as action at nationals.
Personally I would not mind seeing a step out rule or at least an automatic stall call if you are the one being pushed out. People bagged on Stoll for pushing his opponent out of bounds and wasn't really trying to score. Eh Stoll is a huge greco guy and he is trying to set up a throw. If you cannot circle in, regardless of whether Stoll is stepping to the side with you, and you go out of bounds you are stalling trying to avoid the throw. Of course people will choose to do this instead of stepping into his over under and that is avoiding action to an opponent because they have superior positioning. That is stalling in my point of view.
Refs just need to call stalling more period. If you are being pushed around the mat and not making an effort to fight in=stalling. Conversely, if all you are doing is pushing and not really creating offense=stalling.
I agree with the poster that some of the most exciting action takes place on the edge. I would hate to see an exciting scramble (Nolf/Imar last year) blown dead because a guy stepped out. Also I hate how in freestyle you will see a guy get a leg up and make no attempt to finish, just "settle" for the 1 by running a guy out of bounds. Freestyle has come a long way, and the current rules are the best we've had in sometime....but not a fan of the push out rule.
I agree with the poster that some of the most exciting action takes place on the edge. I would hate to see an exciting scramble (Nolf/Imar last year) blown dead because a guy stepped out. Also I hate how in freestyle you will see a guy get a leg up and make no attempt to finish, just "settle" for the 1 by running a guy out of bounds. Freestyle has come a long way, and the current rules are the best we've had in sometime....but not a fan of the push out rule.
They aren't going to call stalling more often. That is the whole point of this conversation.
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I watch as much freestyle as is available to watch and to be honest, while I like some aspects, I much prefer folk style. I think we can find a happy medium to the push out rule if needed and if we went to a straight up push out rule I would learn to accept it but there is a lot about free style that I don't like at all.
I like the control of Folk. A good ride is part of wrestling and controlled back points show me way more about a wrestlers talents than the ability to get a take down and use momentum to roll your opponent 5 times.
Give me a rematch of Ramos v Dennis in folk any day over what we saw in free. Results are probably the same, but we get to see a greater display of talent that just showing the guy with a killer gut wrench. What Clark did last week to get back points is one of the greatest examples of 'dominance by skill set' that we have in wrestling, something Free does not even give us the chance to see.
I don't like freestyle at all. I just hate the current OOB rule. None of the officials call it the same. They rarely call it at all at nationals. The rules have to be simplified. They have to take the guess work out of the rules so there can be some consistency with calls.
I don't dislike this any more than the current situation of guys rolling around after a leg is passed, and the resulting stalemate that occurs 90% of the time.
So many rules. I'm not as smart as I think I am, but I understand that. That separates me from a lot of guys that know/make the rules.
Two heavy weights grunting and pushing? Or laying on top of one another. Which is better? Not many Snyders around.
Two heavy weights grunting and pushing? Or laying on top of one another. Which is better? Not many Snyders around.
Are you serious? The "extra push after the whistle" really isn't a technique that gets taught. That's just how Metcalf wrestled, he wrestled with an attitude.
Shoving kids off the mat isn't going to help us score points against PSU.
That is pretty short sighted since the majority of times the guy backed up to the OOB circle before the push out. It's a big mat and a guy can keep in the middle if he chooses to put out the effort.
When you're close enough to the mat, you can hear some coaches and a lot of teammates yelling "shoot him out" as if to make a statement and avoid the stall call.
While I loved Metcalfs intensity, I'd rather be known for breaking a guy on top and not just cheap shots when clearly OOB.
While I loved Metcalfs intensity, I'd rather be known for breaking a guy on top and not just cheap shots when clearly OOB.
Eliminate the stalemate call totally. If you need to stalemate a guy to stop him from scoring, then someone is stalling.
That presents a problem when a counter is a real option. How do you necessarily know the original initiator isn't causing the stalemate to avoid a counter?
Look - the answer that "Refs just need to actually call stalling" is so old and stale. It's not going to happen. Stalling is a discretion call, and in big matches refs just aren't going to make it. And I'm not sure you want them deciding NCAA finals matches late in the 3rd period based on their interpretation of a stall call.
Push out is simple and clear. It makes it easy on the refs. It results in points on the board. When your opponent has points on the board you have to open up to get some yourself. It increases action.
I can't recall a Sorenson/Collica type of snorefest in freestyle under the new rules. Guys have to score points to win matches. Not win by 2 seconds of riding time.
Push out is simple and clear. It makes it easy on the refs. It results in points on the board. When your opponent has points on the board you have to open up to get some yourself. It increases action.
I can't recall a Sorenson/Collica type of snorefest in freestyle under the new rules. Guys have to score points to win matches. Not win by 2 seconds of riding time.
