Even families making over $240k get some assistance at Stanford.
College Choices - Prestige vs Avoiding Debt??
- Thread starter NDallasRuss
- Start date
IMO, the best gift you can give your child is a debt-free college experience.
My daughter (no pics) graduated in May and just got her first paycheck as a teacher. She gets to keep 100% of it. No student low payment. No car payment.
My daughter (no pics) graduated in May and just got her first paycheck as a teacher. She gets to keep 100% of it. No student low payment. No car payment.
Money aside, you can't go wrong with Georgetown for International Relations. Now, let's talk money. Are the opportunities/internships and advantages of Gtown worth her paying $150k more than attending a good state school for undergrad? Internships are available from any schools. If she goes to a good grad school, those advantages are negligible in the long run. I went to grad school with a lot of students who were Ivy undergrad and several Gtown students. We all ended up with the same opportunities.
Yeah, not sure where the cutoff is though. I looked at the calculator on their site and they asked for income, investments, etc and the answer was we’d get zero aid. Total parental contribution was $78k for tuition, room and board.
Like every one has said it’s the institution that grants the last degree that counts. But im interested in knowing about the conversation with the kid that yes you got into harvard by doing all the right things but lets attend a nice state school instead because it’s the rational thing to do. That’s got to be tough as hell.
Private schools often carry a large sticker price but the actual cost of attendance makes them very competitive with public schools. You also have greater access to faculty and research opportunities that help considerably with graduate school. Nearly ever physician I work with spent time helping faculty with research projects in undergrad.
The cost of medical school varies widely, of course. My cousin went to TCU and A&M for medical school. His parents paid for undergrad and now wished they would've promised his graduate tuition instead...it was a bargain.
The cost of medical school varies widely, of course. My cousin went to TCU and A&M for medical school. His parents paid for undergrad and now wished they would've promised his graduate tuition instead...it was a bargain.
But also, what you should do is go the local JUCO route for a year or two and guarantee that you accrue zero debt, that way if you do go to a spendy-er university, it's only for a couple years. And grad school is still grad school regardless.
Not to mention getting your required classes out of the way early so that your sole focus is on your major(s).
(unless, of course, your HS was progressive enough to offer these classes and you got them done before you graduated........)
Not to mention getting your required classes out of the way early so that your sole focus is on your major(s).
(unless, of course, your HS was progressive enough to offer these classes and you got them done before you graduated........)
yes if you compare out of state tuition for state schools versus out of pocket for private. but i suspect a kid capable of getting into ivy will have a completely paid for in-state option.
I googled this because I've never been to med school and all the sources seem to agree that GPA and MCAT is going to matter the most when it comes to med school. You should google it yourself but here are a few links I found.
They did indicate that research opportunities that she can get into and put on her application might be important so the school might have an indirect effect on things because it would hurt her if those opportunities don't exist.
https://www.prospectivedoctor.com/does-undergraduate-reputation-matter-for-admissions/
https://medschoolinsiders.com/pre-med/college-prestige-for-medical-school-ivy-league/
So I guess I would discourage her from worrying too greatly about prestige of the school.
Don’t automatically assume out of state tuition is automatically more expensive than an instate school. That was not true for our 2 oldest. They both found leaving the state to be a better bargain. Having said that, for Boy #3 who is headed to UF (virtuallly) this fall, the instate package was the best offer. Adding in all his AP/Cambridge credits, at the end of his freshman year he will be a junior and have zero debt. In fact he will be putting somewhere near $10-12,000 in his pocket this year.
My best friend’s daughter went to Stanford and graduated last year. He said that you really don’t know the all-in tuition and fees, the school just send a letter saying you owe this much (his was around 17k). It was the living expenses that were a killer.
Guessing with the schools on the list Community College is not in the future. In today's day and age I certainly don't disagree that it's a great option, especially w/the whole Covid thing going on and not really getting the whole college experience. Have a friend whose son was signed up to go instate at KU this year and had his dorm assignment and such but opted out for the first year to go to Community College. His dad basically told him for the 23-24K vs 4K to go to community college he would give him that money when he graduates. So even if it's 1 year at the community college he'll have 20K in his pocket and no debt coming out of college. That's a pretty good head start.
Personally, I think that you've overrated Georgetown. But, that's just me.
Speaking for my daughter (no pics), who graduated 2 + years ago from University of Michigan, the investment for her future has paid giant dividends. Her freaking network as a 24 year old is mind-blowing to me. Michigan alumni hold many positions of influence and incredibly motivated to help each other out. She will be starting a new job in 3 weeks which will be paying her $120K + quarterly bonuses. She was contacted by a fellow UM alum who received her name from another UM alum. She'll be leaving her current job - which pays $90K - but has been hit hard by COVID . . . a job she applied for after being recruited by, you've got it, a UM alum.
Well worth the cost.
That written, we covered most of the cost for her. Forced her to take on some loans to understand that there were consequences for picking the more expensive school. She incurred about $17K in student debt. She now owes about $2,500.
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I've heard University of Michigan referred to as "Public Harvard."
UM, UNC, UVA and UT are what I generally regard as public schools that stand well above the rest.
A buddy of mine followed same track. Full ride at Iowa; law school at Georgetown. I'm a double Hawkeye (B.S. / J.D.) and had to take loans all 7 years. He not only caught me in debt but passed me when we were both done. And both started with similar salaries (me in Chicago; him in Indianapolis)
I usually get asked this question about law schools, but my basic answer would be the same. And that is go to the cheapest school in the best grouping you can get into.
So for law schools, I would rank them as:
-Premier Schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, NYU and Columbia),
-Elite Schools (essentially 7-15 on US News so Penn, UVA, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan ET al),
-Regional Schools (essentially 16-37 on the US News so schools like my William & Mary, Iowa, BYU, Boston College, Emory, George Washington, Notre Dame, etc...)
-State Schools (essentially 38-70 on US News so schools like FSU, Miami, Tennessee, Ohio State, Ped State, Tulane, Baylor, George Mason, the UCs other than LA and Berkeley, etc..)
-“Metro” or Small State Schools (essentially 71-110 in the US News so schools like St Johns, Nebraska, Rutgers, Oklahoma, Pitt, Oregon, FIU, Michigan State, Stetson, Ole Miss, Syracuse, Louisville, etc...)
-Crap Schools (everything I didn’t name).
And here’s the reason for the breakdown. For Premier Schools if you graduate top 10% you will have your pick of jobs anywhere in the country and beat anyone from any college below you. Your only competition is other 10% in Premier Schools. If you’re top 10% at an Elite School, you will lose any job you’re up for against a Top 10% Premier School grad but can probably beat out the other 90% and other than that can find really good placement anywhere in the country.
If you’re top 10% in a Regional School, you’re going to find quite a few states receptive to bringing you in other than jobs taken by the top 10% of Premier and Elite School but you’re probably not going to get a great job flying across the country (meaning William and Mary gets you lots of good jobs in the South East and MidAtlantic but not a lot of options on the Left Coast, meanwhile California-Hastings grads will get some good jobs in California, Oregon and Washington but have to take a lower quality job if they tried to move to Florida or Iowa). Once you dip to Regional Schools, overall cost is no longer the sole factor. It’s also what region do you want to settle in. For example, if the Hastings costs $50k for all three years after scholarships and William and Mary costs $100k after scholarships but you want to work in DC, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, or Nashville instead of LA, San Francisco, Portland, or Seattle then you should still probably choose William and Mary even though it’s pricier.
For State schools, the top 10% are only getting really good jobs within the state or maybe a neighboring state or two. FSU top 10%ers are going to find really good jobs in Florida and Georgia and that’s about it. The jobs elsewhere will not be at the equivalent prestige as those they can get in Florida and Georgia and they’ll likely lose out to top 10% at Premier, Elite, and Regional Schools as well as lose some to nonTop 10% Premier and Elite school grads but probably will beat Regional nontop10%.
For Metro or Small State Schools, your top 10% is probably only getting really excellent job in the greater metro area the school resides in or if it’s a small state like Oklahoma or Mississippi then throughout your small state. Their top 10% are losing jobs to all Premier, Elite, Regional and State top 10% as well as most 11-100% grads from Premier and Elite schools as well as a lot of those nonTop 10 at Regional and State schools. Graduating top 10% at schools like this will still land you some decent jobs but only in a really tight area. Non-top 10%ers will be struggling to find jobs with probably at least 20% having to find nonlegal jobs or really ^+^+ “legal” jobs like being a paralegal for a firm not an attorney.
For Crap schools only the top 10% and maybe the nexts 20-30% are even going to get passable legal jobs. The top 10% here are not getting elite firm positions or clerkships at anywhere other than your local court and they lose to every school ranked higher than them. The others will be fighting tooth and nail to get employed with maybe 50-60% taking nonlegal jobs or jobs like “contract reviewer” that are basically low paying white collar jobs that they can fudge to tell US News and WR that their graduate landed a “law job” while really it’s not a job that requires a law degree.
So with that breakdown with schools explained, it makes no sense to overpay to go to Stanford if Yale is half the price or vice versa. Both are giving you the same opportunity so you want to go cheap. If Columbia offers you a full ride and Harvard wants you to pay half, you go to Columbia no further questions asked. BUT...if the choice is Harvard at full cost or UVA or Duke for half price, the no brainer is to go to Harvard, you’re essentially paying money to be guaranteed to win head to head interviews against the lesser schools (someone might pipe in and say “Yeah well I graduated top in my class with moot court and law review and beat Harvard grads” and to that my answer is that sure you might have but number 2-30 from your school didn’t and there’s WAY more than one great job). And then you just keep going down the list of schools by Grouping until you hit the schools you’re getting into. In other words you should always choose an Elite School like Vandy over a Regional School like William and Mary; you should always choose a Regional School like William and Mary over a State School like FSU; you should always choose a State School like FSU over a Metro/Small State School like Oklahoma, Louisville or Stetson. And you should always choose the Metro/Small State school like Stetson and Louisville over crap schools like Barry, Florida Coastal, Akron or Dayton. Within the groupings, you want to choose the cheapest school in the area you want to work.
I’m sure there’s similar breakdowns for undergrad schools, but the caveat is you do really have to look at the individual program. For example, Harvard over FSU for undergrad is a nobrainer...unless you are getting into FSU’s film school where there’s only 5 or so better schools in the country all in Cali and Harvard is NOT one of them. So if your daughter isn’t looking for a standard business degree or a science degree that’s based on overall school reputation but is going into something like Music, Film, or a really specialized sub field (for example FSU’s meteorology program is second only to a tiny handful of schools even though our overall rep is only in the 70s or so) then the groupings would matter. But for those unique sub specialties you want to look at the sub specialty ranking to find out where to go and not the overall undergrad score.
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One thing that I think is underrated is finding the right fit. I’ve known kids that went to a more prestigious school but were miserable socially. They will be in that town/campus for four years, so they better feel safe.
Also, my friend’s son was valedictorian, Class president, very high ACT (Very large NW suburb) and was looking at Duke, G’Town, NC, Michigan. Didn’t get in or was ‘wait-listed’. Have heard stories more stories like this.
When my son was looking at schools, we compared it to buying a house, you just kind of know when you get to the school that’s right for you.
Apply with a wide net and enjoy the ride...it can be stressful if you make it that way, so try to enjoy it.
Also, my friend’s son was valedictorian, Class president, very high ACT (Very large NW suburb) and was looking at Duke, G’Town, NC, Michigan. Didn’t get in or was ‘wait-listed’. Have heard stories more stories like this.
When my son was looking at schools, we compared it to buying a house, you just kind of know when you get to the school that’s right for you.
Apply with a wide net and enjoy the ride...it can be stressful if you make it that way, so try to enjoy it.
Your "Match" schools comprise a good list by themselves.
Cal (where I went to grad school) always shows up in the top 5-10 in the International rankings. Iowa usually shows in the top 200, not bad when the list is 10,000 schools long.
So ... make sure she applies at Cal. My tuition was $340 a quarter (instate).
It's a hell of a value or at least it was in the 1970's.
Speaking as a college grad, a parent of 3 college grads and someone that recruited people for a job at my company, I suggest public in-state school for undergrad. Kids change majors, often several times, so it's hard to plan too far ahead. Also, why pay a high $ for rhetoric, PE, math, science, foreign language etc.
After say, 3 years of undergrad, when the path has been chosen - you can transfer to a better school. Or finish undergrad and go to a better school for your Masters.
After say, 3 years of undergrad, when the path has been chosen - you can transfer to a better school. Or finish undergrad and go to a better school for your Masters.
If the kid is certain to attend grad school in the future, does your prescription change for choice of undergrad school?
Has she considered joining the military? My wife, no pic, signed up for the Air Force in her second year of dental school and had years three and four paid. After graduating she did a one year residency and had two years payback for the two years of paid tuition. Thirteen years later she is still in.
That would be a hard conversation to have - how do you do it in a way that doesn't come across as "the last 4 years were a waste of energy!"
I guess it's framing that the hard work led to getting money from the state/lower-tier schools, so that's the reward. Whether that's comparable will be up to interpretation.
I tried to talk to my son about one of the academies but he scoffed at me. This wee the Navy recruiter called and asked for an interview and he agreed, we'll see what they have to say. My dad will have another stroke if he ended up at Annapolis instead of the AFA. But I don't see it happening.
Thanks for that!
One thing that I had heard was that sometimes going to a lower tier school means that professors come to the higher achieving students about research opportunities, compared to higher tier schools where all the students are high-achieving and are fighting over the same opportunities.
This is what I talked to her HS counselor to clarify this morning. I've had no idea what that looks like - if you get accepted, do you know right away what the cost is, what the scholarships would total, etc. It's a lot of learning for me!
That makes sense, the tier of the school usually seems to be associated with how academically competitive it is and how good the student's academic and testing history is. So it makes sense at a lower tier school she might be able to stand out more.
The other thing is that at a higher tier school you probably have a greater percentage of the students there aiming for grad school/law school/med school not only because they are better students but also because they are wealthier and going to grad school doesn't represent as big of a risk to them.
For International Relations it's top 2-3. If that's the direction she wants to go, I think it's right. If she majors in something else, I think you're probably right.
I fully agree with this. If she wants to study International Relations, Georgetown is definitely elite.
I have talked to her a little about it - especially with having the USNA so close to us. It's not something she's interested yet, but it
s something for us to keep bringing up to her.
I had a friend in HS whose dad did that - he joined the army, who put him through medical school. Once he was done, he did his time in the army to pay it back, and then he was done, debt free.
One thing that I think we've done well, is that we've take the kid to see probably 14 different campuses. She's had the chance to get a pretty good cross-section of schools.
The plan this summer was to go out to CA to show her UCAL, USC, Cal, and Stanford. Unfortunately the COVIDs screwed that all up. All the schools have "virtual tours", so that's helped her a lot.
Indian Hills CC in Ottumwa, Ia. is an OUTSTANDING school. Hope this helps!
You did better than us. We saw two. Were going to see more this summer.....
He's interested in CS so most of the best programs are out here on the west coast, but with all the interest from the ivies (even if it's just for the application fees) has got us thinking.
He has friends that are going to a local CC to start and he asked us about that. I told him if he thought he was bored in HS taking AP classes he'd lose his mind taking CC classes. We're actually going to sign him up for some classes there now as his senior year is so light.
What you do is make it like she came up short and failed to get a scholly. “You tried really hard. You gave it your all. But you always knew that if you wanted to go to Harvard, you’d have to get an academic scholarship. If they’re not offering, we have to remove them from contention. You’ll have to give a top 5 public University consideration.”
Man, I'm going to have a real hard time having a conversation with her that includes anything about her failing! That dang kid has put a ton of effort into the last several years.
The whole reach/match/safety paradigm is a trap set up by the middle-upper tier private schools. Can't get into the Ivy schools, how bout you pay the same price for a Georgetown. Can't get into Duke, how about William & Mary for the same price.
I was obviously joking. It sounds like she’s busted her ass to get to this point; I couldn’t tell her she came up short.
Honestly, I’d have the financial conversation with her though. Show her this thread. Many of us have incurred the debt and regret it. I’ve been paying my student loans for 17 years!! Every month I cut that check. I so wish I would have known the consequences.
I have a son who is a senior now and we are going through the same dilemma. COVID has made it more likely now that he may skip a year and just work and take come core classes staying at home.
I want him to go where he wants, but to understand the tradeoffs.
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