Interesting article from Andy Hamilton:
http://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/Po...&twSessionId=tyekmddhzmngpef&postId=600555009
http://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/Po...&twSessionId=tyekmddhzmngpef&postId=600555009
Could college wrestling be on the verge of monumental changes?
- Thread starter DirtyJohns
- Start date
Like the one semester, don't like the dual championship stuff. Just let that idea die already. It won't work.
Nickerson said. “...We’ve proven that the individual championship makes money, it’s very successful for the NCAA and why wouldn’t a dual meet championship be just as successful?”
Because fans don't have unlimited money and vacation time. They have to make choices. I don't think you pick up casual fans, who "can conceptualize that a little bit easier" a dual better than a tournament, to make both sucessful.
Because fans don't have unlimited money and vacation time. They have to make choices. I don't think you pick up casual fans, who "can conceptualize that a little bit easier" a dual better than a tournament, to make both sucessful.
1 weekend in late January in CedarFalls at the UniDome. Done deal for the duals. Big crowds and it would make money.
Horrible idea now folkstyle season will interfere even more with freestyle season.Plus you go win a national title and now you gotta cut weight again for 2 more weigh ins
Hate 1 semester. Hate taking attention away from the individual tournament format.
NCAA should just ask Iowa high school association how having dual championships worked after the individual tournament.
I don't mind the 1 semester season. For me the season never really gets going until Midlands anyway.
I always wonder why wrestling wasnt in late March or first weekend in April. Why compete w basketball tourney at same time. Might be opportunity an for increase tv coverage-exposure to nonwrestling fans.
Dual championships just doesn't matter if your scoring team scores at an individual tournament imo
I don't mind the 1 semester season. For me the season never really gets going until Midlands anyway.
I always wonder why wrestling wasnt in late March or first weekend in April. Why compete w basketball tourney at same time. Might be opportunity an for increase tv coverage-exposure to nonwrestling fans.
Dual championships just doesn't matter if your scoring team scores at an individual tournament imo
I don't like either way I suppose, when still scoring individual tournament for a team race
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Just addressing a 1 semester sport:
Dropping to a 1 semester sport would be and most likely considered "intramural" status by NCAA. The $$ responsibilities lean on the school, the schools and programs would need help for athletes support such as:
When's the wrestling room gonna open up?
And why do we not have year round funding?
And Why am I not having help with my tuition?
Want to revolutionize Wrestling? Let our athletes compete outside during the school year.
Trucking idiot....
Jmo imo if you want to keep a full time job you do Not go spouting off about benefits of a part-time job and than try to talk your bosses into it.
Dropping to a 1 semester sport would be and most likely considered "intramural" status by NCAA. The $$ responsibilities lean on the school, the schools and programs would need help for athletes support such as:
When's the wrestling room gonna open up?
And why do we not have year round funding?
And Why am I not having help with my tuition?
Want to revolutionize Wrestling? Let our athletes compete outside during the school year.
Trucking idiot....
Jmo imo if you want to keep a full time job you do Not go spouting off about benefits of a part-time job and than try to talk your bosses into it.
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Imagine that, Ryan is on the committee and says there is lots enthusiasm. Is he a used car salesman too?
I can't believe they keep coming up with the same crap every few years. What's wrong with these people?
My initial thought is I prefer the one semester season. But I'd want this to result in Nationals moving to April, away from basketball.
I also like the idea of trying to add meaning to dual meets. I know die-hard fans only care about the individual tournament, which is a great event, but this mindset has rendered dual meets meaningless, which I believe is the biggest thing killing the sport -- you can't expect a sport to thrive when it's a few months of practice culminating with a single profitable tournament. You need casual fans attending dual meets. Currently dual meets are just depressing to watch, with coaches more interested in protecting their top wrestlers, and teams competing in empty gyms.
In addition, I hate hate hate that the national champion "team" is determined primarily by who has a few studs that can score big points, as opposed to a balanced team with good wrestlers at every weight class. IMO the team that wins in a dual meet is the superior team -- not the one who wins in an individual tournament.
That said, having a dual team tournament a month after individuals seems like a losing idea.
I also like the idea of trying to add meaning to dual meets. I know die-hard fans only care about the individual tournament, which is a great event, but this mindset has rendered dual meets meaningless, which I believe is the biggest thing killing the sport -- you can't expect a sport to thrive when it's a few months of practice culminating with a single profitable tournament. You need casual fans attending dual meets. Currently dual meets are just depressing to watch, with coaches more interested in protecting their top wrestlers, and teams competing in empty gyms.
In addition, I hate hate hate that the national champion "team" is determined primarily by who has a few studs that can score big points, as opposed to a balanced team with good wrestlers at every weight class. IMO the team that wins in a dual meet is the superior team -- not the one who wins in an individual tournament.
That said, having a dual team tournament a month after individuals seems like a losing idea.
Dual meets aren't any more meaningless than regular season baseball, basketball, or football games. These games set the stage for their respective championships. It's the prelude. If Tom Ryan and Rob Koll can't get their fans to the dual meets, that's their problem. These morons are going to ruin the sport.
I am not surprised that the most successful programs and their fanbases are strongly against it. However, for every other school besides Iowa and PSU, nearly the whole season is a cost drain with very limited fan support.
The dual concept isn't some guaranteed incredible fix. However, staying the same isn't helping. Only a handful of teams are safe under the current landscape and you will continue to see teams drop off. The dual concept is an attempt to make televising duals easier with duals actually meaning something. It isn't so much about getting fans in the seats(although the hope is for that to come later on).
I understand why you like the way it is. You already have phenomenal dual attendance and show up in droves in March. This attempt isn't for you. It is an attempt to strengthen DI as a whole. Again, it isn't the cure for cancer, but at least it is a well thought out attempt. If you honestly don't think DI needs a major adrenaline boost, you are too insulated by being solely/mostly and Iowa fan.
The dual concept isn't some guaranteed incredible fix. However, staying the same isn't helping. Only a handful of teams are safe under the current landscape and you will continue to see teams drop off. The dual concept is an attempt to make televising duals easier with duals actually meaning something. It isn't so much about getting fans in the seats(although the hope is for that to come later on).
I understand why you like the way it is. You already have phenomenal dual attendance and show up in droves in March. This attempt isn't for you. It is an attempt to strengthen DI as a whole. Again, it isn't the cure for cancer, but at least it is a well thought out attempt. If you honestly don't think DI needs a major adrenaline boost, you are too insulated by being solely/mostly and Iowa fan.
Basketball and football games are huge -- particularly football games. They go a long way towards deciding the team's standings in playoffs, and in football's case they decide whether or not you're even in a playoff. A wrestling dual meet means zero for the team. The individual wrestlers need to establish their NCAA seed, but for the team dual meets are completely meaningless. If you have five potential national champions you could forfeit the other weight classes, lose every single dual meet, and be the national champion.
I will add that the sport is already in its death throes at the D1 level. Status quo isn't an option.
I love the one semester plan but think individual NCAA's should be in April. Have 'National Duals' in late February and then let guys focus on individual success two months later.
A great point. A 2-14 Football team is not making the playoffs. A 2-14 dual record DI team could end up taking top 10 or even top5 at NCAA's. As long as that can happen, there is no reason for a DI coach to truly focus on putting his best product on the mat each dual.
Now I have been spoiled at the High School level in Michigan being able to participate in both the Team State and Individuals. Both are great draws and both are run smoothly. I know it is exceptionally hard to compare High School events to a National one, but I could honestly see the Individual Tournament still being what it is and even if it dropped 10%, if that 10% drop allows for another slightly less successful Dual format, I am all for it. Having multiple successful events is a good thing and the hope is that it trickles back to the regular season duals helping in a multitude of ways.
Again, I am not saying it is a guarantee. But, it is truly worth a try. Because, SOMETHING needs to be done. Do you really want it to be Iowa vs PSU 20 years from now, with maybe another handful of teams that have missed the chopping block or have somehow become self endowed?
The individuals are the team - your distinction is meaningless . Your argument make sense only if your proposing a team championship - and the NCAA won't sponsor a dual championship. However, if we go to a strictly dual format, than only 5 or 6 D1 programs will be relevant. That will destroy the sport. As things stand now fans from South Dakota State, Campbell, North Carolina State, Edinboro, and Rider have something to cheer about at the national tournament. Taking that away is flat stupid and will kill the sport.
The only sensible moves to grow the sport are promoting high school (particularly Texas)and women's wrestling and fighting for greater wrestling prominence at the Olympics. Trying to grow the sport with models that work for football and basketball is crazy because our sport has a limited fan base - it's a niche sport [casual sports fans find it boring]. Traditionally niche sports are best marketed through the Olympics or through women.
Not being argumentative but isn't football a one semester sport to all but 4 teams?
It's not meaningless, at all. It's the primary difference between wrestling and team sports -- and despite platitudes to the contrary wrestling is not a team sport, especially not in its current format. So long as the team's record has zero bearing on individual seeding at the NCAA tournament you can't call it a team sport.
Yes, I love the fact that lots of schools have somebody to cheer for at the individual tournament. It's a great event. Which is why I've never argued against it. What I argue is that we should try to find a way to make dual meets meaningful, so that the fans from SDSU, Rider, etc have something to cheer about outside of one weekend in March. And so fans from Iowa, PSU, etc have something to cheer about outside of one weekend in March.
Most of those teams (SDSU, Rider, Edinboro, etc.) will never see the dual event. Conference champs and wild cards based on some ranking.
So the casual fan "damn, we didn't even make it to the nationals" so why support the team the rest of the season?
Middle of the season format for dual championship, maybe-end of season, NO
This topic is DI's equivalent to politics. You have 2 vastly differing viewpoints and it is nearly impossible for either side to change their minds. Meanwhile the National Debt(DI's stability) is soaring ridiculously out of control. Something has to be done. If this isn't the idea, so be it. But saying the NCAA Tournament is so good, so don't change anything isn't getting it done.
Just like many of you on here tell people to put their money where their mouth is when criticizing the Iowa program, the same thing needs to be done for DI as a whole. Regardless of your take on any Dual Concept, it IS a good thing that coaches are getting together to try to put something new and exciting together.
Finally, how many people do you think go to the NCAA Tournament soley to cheer for SDSU due to their team chances? Of those, how many are related to the wrestler that qualified or are former(wrestler)/alumni? Honestly, those that attend the Individual Tournament are nearly all going to attend it regardless of whether or not their team still has a chance to finish 8th if they get one more win in the consolation bracket..........
Just like many of you on here tell people to put their money where their mouth is when criticizing the Iowa program, the same thing needs to be done for DI as a whole. Regardless of your take on any Dual Concept, it IS a good thing that coaches are getting together to try to put something new and exciting together.
Finally, how many people do you think go to the NCAA Tournament soley to cheer for SDSU due to their team chances? Of those, how many are related to the wrestler that qualified or are former(wrestler)/alumni? Honestly, those that attend the Individual Tournament are nearly all going to attend it regardless of whether or not their team still has a chance to finish 8th if they get one more win in the consolation bracket..........
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I couldn't agree more. And what really steams me is the dual proposal always comes from some coach with questionable motives - e.g. Rob Koll, Tom Ryan, . . . The D1 NCAA wrestling championship has more schools and more fan bases involved than any other NCAA sport - and it's not even close. Why kill it just so fOSU can get a trophy.
Former alum...perhaps this poor chap is now deceased??
Has nothing to do with football Cumberland
It's ok to be confused we differ there Art. I see disaster you may see progress.
They're trying to fix something that isn't broke....The dual tournament was never better than when they wrestled the whole thing at one site in one weekend....it was well attended and its timing didnt screw up the national individual tournament....who the hell says duals arent exciting? They should come to Carver for Iowa/Okie st. sometime or Iowa/Minnesota Psu tosu etc. not sure what these clowns are trying to accomplish.....wrestling will always have its core fan base and none of these measures will change that....I agree if you want to grow the sport start at the high school level thats the best opportunity to grow new fans
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I'm fine with the basic desire to push wrestling to a one semester collegiate sport and have the final event in April, deconflicted from March Madness; however, the final event should be the individual championship NOT the dual championship.
If they want to make the sport more exciting...."fun to watch"... they should be looking at rule changes similar to what freestyle did to encourage more aggressive action and less stalling....seems like there are more and more defensive wrestlers and with the current rules they are successful with a boring style....personally I would like to see freestyle adopted from high school on up so our wrestlers are more experienced in it when they move on to international competition... since the rule changes freestyle is more exciting to watch in my opinion
I know that the idea of a "hybrid" tournament has been discussed in the past in which the teams that qualify and participate in National Duals would get some sort of carry over points to the Traditional Tournament. That has been popular to some, but usually is shot down because not everyone gets the opportunity to participate in the Dual Tournament.
What if they did something similar, but required every team to schedule a set amount of duals each season. No more, no less. A team gets a set amount of points per dual win with some weighted factor for "strength of schedule". It could be similar to how the old BCS was determined (I know, many hated that, but it wouldn't actually determine the NCAA champ here). Carry those points over to the National Tournament.
This way, every team is on an even playing field to start the season, every dual matters.
Similarly, you could get 0.1 points per each point scored in the dual to carry over to Nationals. This way every individual match in a dual matters, and so do bonus points. Though, perhaps this would lead to some schools padding their schedule with cupcakes just so they can win 60-0 and get 6 points.
What if they did something similar, but required every team to schedule a set amount of duals each season. No more, no less. A team gets a set amount of points per dual win with some weighted factor for "strength of schedule". It could be similar to how the old BCS was determined (I know, many hated that, but it wouldn't actually determine the NCAA champ here). Carry those points over to the National Tournament.
This way, every team is on an even playing field to start the season, every dual matters.
Similarly, you could get 0.1 points per each point scored in the dual to carry over to Nationals. This way every individual match in a dual matters, and so do bonus points. Though, perhaps this would lead to some schools padding their schedule with cupcakes just so they can win 60-0 and get 6 points.
This is complete nonsense. The regular season basketball, baseball and football games (especially football, are you serious?) have direct effects on the championships of their seasons.
I did. It was nonsensical. Comparing a dual meet, the results of which have no bearing on anything, to a college football game, where one loss can mean you're not eligible to compete for the national championship, is ridiculous.
