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Countries that initially handled COVID well...

Not bad, mine’s even simpler.

2. If you own a bar, restaurant or any other business then YOU decide when it should be open and what rules apply.

LOL. Simple is as simple does.

Does this apply to owners who don't want to pay minimum wage, or want to discriminate, or keep their refrigerators above 40, or don't have their employees vaccinated for the Hep?

Which rules are rules and which are just friendly suggestions?
 
Employment
  • In 2015, 33 million Americans aged 55+ were employed, and 1.3 million were actively seeking work. (Bureau of Labor Statistics [BLS]
  • Nearly twice as many older workers aged 65+ were employed in 2015 than teenage workers (8.4 million vs 4.7 million). (BLS)
You want to minimize the importance of the older workforce but they are significant. And expecting these people to just quit their jobs so younger people can go without masks, go to concerts, not isolate when exposed, eat at restaurants is absurdly unfair and inhumane.

And few are calling for everyone to SIP, rather we are calling for mandatory masks, social distancing and much, much better testing/tracing/isolation plans. Stop misrepresenting.
This is the biggest issue that people are forgetting. Assuming we go with 55+ as the "at risk" group this represents 24% of our current active workforce (at least as of 2019) and an even larger percentage of the per capita consumption in this country.

Unless we take serious measures to halt the spread of the virus the fact is that a good portion of this group will, in part, depress any economic recovery. If we ask them to stay home while the rest of us work more of them will become or stay unemployed and they will spend less.

We will not have the economic recovery we need unless we all work together to reverse the spread of the disease. This is job 1. We have a blueprint for how to do it from other countries. Let's follow it.
 
Yes, technically he did, but it needs to be publicly called out or the protest will continue. Hell, they'll continue anyway, so how do we handle that?

Police not murdering civilians would be a good place to start in preventing protests.

Realistically, you can't control it. Anytime something egregious happens people are going to gather to voice their displeasure. The BLM protests did show though that if most people wear masks the virus spread can be mitigated.
 
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Sure. It’s a question of degree.

In Germany the active infection rate is something like 70x less than the active rate in the United States. Because they did the sensible measures early on and because they did not open up too soon they are now eating out at restaurants MORE per capita than they were last year at this time.

Wouldn’t that be nice? So wear a mask, socially distance and let’s get our country back on track.
What is the testing rate compared to the US? I love when people make these kinds of statements about numbers and rates and yet when we look at who is actually testing to gain a full understanding of how infection rates and deaths the US leafs be a huge margin. Pretty sure we are double the testing of all the EU. It isn't close.
 
Police not murdering civilians would be a good place to start in preventing protests.

Realistically, you can't control it. Anytime something egregious happens people are going to gather to voice their displeasure. The BLM protests did show though that if most people wear masks the virus spread can be mitigated.

Do we have real provable data that the protests did not contribute to the spikes in cases, or are we just listening to certain media outlets?
 
I won’t argue the details of your plan, for the most part it’s reasonable. Thanks for the reply.

The best thing we can do for the vulnerable is keep the virus spread low and in control so they can participate in society and the economy. A plan that requires the majority of vulnerable to shelter in place is unworkable and counterproductive. Just as we need to keep schools open for the mental well-being of children, we need to what’s required for the elderly as well.

Your comment regarding those over sixty not being productive is not true. Ask Florida how they would be doing without those over sixty. They have a lot of disposable income that helps drive the economy.
I’m not saying that The at risk individual shouldn’t have free will. They can do whatever they like. But that free will comes with risk just like to the rest of us, unfortunately their risk is much higher.
 
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Aside from that you’ve been demonizing my approach all along. What say you now? This is my plan. It’s easy to criticize what you think is my plan, or imply what my plan is. Which is what you’ve done prior. How is this plan wrong?
Oh my god. You have absolutely zero, and I mean zero, self-awareness. You are such a joke. And a coward, of course.
 
What is the testing rate compared to the US? I love when people make these kinds of statements about numbers and rates and yet when we look at who is actually testing to gain a full understanding of how infection rates and deaths the US leafs be a huge margin. Pretty sure we are double the testing of all the EU. It isn't close.
Let's assume that some cases are going undiagnosed in Germany compared to the US due to testing. We are not testing 70X more than Germany.

Plus, the current positive rate on tests in Germany is 0.7%. To assume they have some massively undocumented spread and that is the reason for the difference is laughable.

I love when people IGNORE actual data to try to fit a forced narrative.
 
What a stupid, stupid comment. Community is what is spreading this virus. I stay away from the elderly in case I happen to be infected somehow. The elderly need to keep their distance - even you propose that.

Likewise your assumption that people have these resources available to them is completely ignorant of what many have to deal with. I'm confident all you know about are the well enough to do and that's all you care about. And that's a problem this country has that goes far beyond the pandemic.
You’re a dope. I talk about community and talking about those individuals in those particular communities helping the elderly with the process. It doesn’t mean putting yourself in groups of family or groups at the gym or groups at church. I’m pointing out that those people are individuals it could be called on to assist. Call your pastor tell them you’re having trouble ordering your meds. Tell your neighbor you need help. Ask your family if there is a grandson that can put in your order for groceries. None of this implies that they’re out in the community is asking the community for help. Good Lord, open your eyes. You’re the one that suggested that at risk groups were in capable of helping themselves. I made no such implication.
 
You’re a dope. I talk about community and talking about those individuals in those particular communities helping the elderly with the process. It doesn’t mean putting yourself in groups of family or groups at the gym or groups at church. I’m pointing out that those people are individuals it could be called on to assist. Call your pastor tell them you’re having trouble ordering your meds. Tell your neighbor you need help. Ask your family if there is a grandson that can put in your order for groceries. None of this implies that they’re out in the community is asking the community for help. Good Lord, open your eyes. You’re the one that suggested that at risk groups were in capable of helping themselves. I made no such implication.
Your narrow mindedness assumes those things are available to everyone. They aren't. Broaden your horizons.
 
You do the same. Your BS on the contribution level of the elderly (I believe you said 60) was asinine at best.

Wear a mask, social distance, and STFU
The poster that relied said 60 million at risk by virtue of age. That works out to be the exact portion of our population above age 60. So I presume that’s the age group he was referring to. But as a group the societal contribution to our work product of that quintile is much less than the 20-40 age group. That’s all I am saying. I won’t be all that long until I’m 60 for gods sake. Spare me the righteous indignation.
 
Your narrow mindedness assumes those things are available to everyone. They aren't. Broaden your horizons.
They are available to everyone. We all have at least one of those things. Church, family, community, neighbor, social services. All of us. Help is out there. One just needs to ask.

Fact is, to the problem you proposed, Help would be readily available. I get that our social safety net isn’t perfect. The people fall through the cracks. But you were suggesting that people couldn’t stay home and get help with groceries and their pharmaceuticals. This is crap. I’m sure one could call the neighborhood Publix or Walgreens talk to the manager and most businesses would be happy to assist. This leaves out all the other things that I talked about above as far as resources. Start looking for solutions and stop looking at barriers.
 
Sure. It’s a question of degree.

In Germany the active infection rate is something like 70x less than the active rate in the United States. Because they did the sensible measures early on and because they did not open up too soon they are now eating out at restaurants MORE per capita than they were last year at this time.

Wouldn’t that be nice? So wear a mask, socially distance and let’s get our country back on track.
What are you telling me for?.....
 
Let's assume that some cases are going undiagnosed in Germany compared to the US due to testing. We are not testing 70X more than Germany.

Plus, the current positive rate on tests in Germany is 0.7%. To assume they have some massively undocumented spread and that is the reason for the difference is laughable.

I love when people IGNORE actual data to try to fit a forced narrative.

What is the current positive rate on tests in the U.S.? Comparing that number to Germany's 0.7% seems more relevant to normalize for how much testing is being conducted in the two countries.
 
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They are available to everyone. We all have at least one of those things. Church, family, community, neighbor, social services. All of us. Help is out there. One just needs to ask.

Fact is, to the problem you proposed, Help would be readily available. I get that our social safety net isn’t perfect. The people fall through the cracks. But you were suggesting that people couldn’t stay home and get help with groceries and their pharmaceuticals. This is crap. I’m sure one could call the neighborhood Publix or Walgreens talk to the manager and most businesses would be happy to assist. This leaves out all the other things that I talked about above as far as resources. Start looking for solutions and stop looking at barriers.
You are very naive. I'll leave it at that for now.
 
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So if wearing a mask COMPLETELY stopped the spread amongst thousands of protestors, why are we doing all these other things everywhere to "stop the spread"? Seems we should be able to wear masks and return to our normal lives? No?

Thousands in the stands at a football game yelling with masks on vs. thousands of protestors yelling with masks on... I'm not seeing the difference
 
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The poster that relied said 60 million at risk by virtue of age. That works out to be the exact portion of our population above age 60.

Something like 80% of our population has known risk factors, such as obesity and hypertension.
 
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What is the current positive rate on tests in the U.S.? Comparing that number to Germany's 0.7% seems more relevant to normalize for how much testing is being conducted in the two countries.

FL is around 20%. So, 30x higher. Many areas of the US are 10x, at 6-8%
 
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Something like 80% of our population has known risk factors, such as obesity and hypertension.
And that my internet friend is the real problem. We have a very unhealthy society and people don’t care. Fat fat fat.
 
So if wearing a mask COMPLETELY stopped the spread amongst thousands of protestors, why are we doing all these other things everywhere to "stop the spread"? Seems we should be able to wear masks and return to our normal lives? No?

Thousands in the stands at a football game yelling with masks on vs. thousands of protestors yelling with masks on... I'm not seeing the difference

Yes, but since we are a nation of children with the emotional maturity of 5 year olds, good luck getting a bunch of drunk people at a football game to leave their masks on. Maybe if half of our population could show even the simplest of maturity about this something like playing football would be possible. But we can't because we have too many whiny babies. If this were our country during WWII Hitler would have kicked our asses. No way people would put up with the inconvience of having sugar rationed.
 
So if wearing a mask COMPLETELY stopped the spread amongst thousands of protestors, why are we doing all these other things everywhere to "stop the spread"? Seems we should be able to wear masks and return to our normal lives? No?

Thousands in the stands at a football game yelling with masks on vs. thousands of protestors yelling with masks on... I'm not seeing the difference

Masks + Distance

Masks give you a mulligan on the 6ft apart.
 
What is the current positive rate on tests in the U.S.? Comparing that number to Germany's 0.7% seems more relevant to normalize for how much testing is being conducted in the two countries.
I believe the USA average is 8.2%.

Here is the link to postivity rate data for all countries.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavi...ries-testing-enough-to-monitor-their-outbreak

So to summarize:

The USA is testing 1.9x more per capita than Germany. Yet the active infection rate is 68x more than Germany's. Plus, in Germany less than 1 in 100 people tested are positive for Covid 19 compared to 8.2% in the United States. So the rate of undocumented spread in Germany will be far less than in the United States.

Net net...we are WAY off track when compared to Germany.
 
And that my internet friend is the real problem. We have a very unhealthy society and people don’t care. Fat fat fat.
And yet our average lifespan continues to get longer.

There is a problem with obesity but it isn't THE problem. There are many non-obese people with conditions that put them at risk. But you're right about people not caring - too many care only for themselves and not others. That is a lot closer to THE problem than obesity.
 
Yes, but since we are a nation of children with the emotional maturity of 5 year olds, good luck getting a bunch of drunk people at a football game to leave their masks on. Maybe if half of our population could show even the simplest of maturity about this something like playing football would be possible. But we can't because we have too many whiny babies. If this were our country during WWII Hitler would have kicked our asses. No way people would put up with the inconvience of having sugar rationed.
And the comparison is not accurate. People crammed in shoulder-to-should vs. those walking with at least a few feet between them. A more accurate comparison would be tailgating and protesting. My thinking is both would be relatively safe if everyone wore a mask. But everyone won't, so....
 
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I believe the USA average is 8.2%.

Here is the link to postivity rate data for all countries.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavi...ries-testing-enough-to-monitor-their-outbreak

So to summarize:

The USA is testing 1.9x more per capita than Germany. Yet the active infection rate is 68x more than Germany's. Plus, in Germany less than 1 in 100 people tested are positive for Covid 19 compared to 8.2% in the United States. So the rate of undocumented spread in Germany will be far less than in the United States.

Net net...we are WAY off track when compared to Germany.

Thanks for that. I hadn't been able to find the US positivity rate data. I might be wrong, but that seems like we are currently around 12x that of Germany (8.2/0.7) instead of 68x. I'm no statistician though. Either way, we aren't doing great.
 
Let's assume that some cases are going undiagnosed in Germany compared to the US due to testing. We are not testing 70X more than Germany.

Plus, the current positive rate on tests in Germany is 0.7%. To assume they have some massively undocumented spread and that is the reason for the difference is laughable.

I love when people IGNORE actual data to try to fit a forced narrative.

We are testing around 2.28 per thousand. Germany is testing at 0.96 per thousand. We are testing at two and a third higher rate than them.

Yes it matters. Especially when one wants to compare infection rates
 
Not bad, mine’s even simpler.

1. If you’re sick stay home.

2. If you own a bar, restaurant or any other business then YOU decide when it should be open and what rules apply.

And, 3. If you feel vulnerable then stay home and if you must venture out feel free to wear a mask: no one will judge you.

If you own a bar, I would be looking for a way to sell it immediately. There will be hardly any that survive in the new normal. If you own a restaurant, your business plan needs to be centered around take out and delivery. Restaurants that depend on indoor dining will not survive in the new normal.
 
We are testing around 2.28 per thousand. Germany is testing at 0.96 per thousand. We are testing at two and a third higher rate than them.

Yes it matters. Especially when one wants to compare infection rates
I never said it did not matter. If you look above the test rates I found show a USA testing about 1.9x, but no problem let's go with your numbers. They are both in the same ballpark anyway.

Again, from my post above, Germany has a 0.7% positivity rate on tests. We have over 8%. So their undocumented cases circulating in the population are almost certainly WAY under ours on a per capita basis. So if anything, the undocumented spread would add to our rate more than it adds to Germany's.

In any event, 2x testing does not cancel out a 68x active case rate.
 
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I believe the USA average is 8.2%.

Here is the link to postivity rate data for all countries.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavi...ries-testing-enough-to-monitor-their-outbreak

So to summarize:

The USA is testing 1.9x more per capita than Germany. Yet the active infection rate is 68x more than Germany's. Plus, in Germany less than 1 in 100 people tested are positive for Covid 19 compared to 8.2% in the United States. So the rate of undocumented spread in Germany will be far less than in the United States.

Net net...we are WAY off track when compared to Germany.

I have no idea where these different sites get their data or if they are accurate, but this one is interesting. It shows similar current R values between the U.S. individual states and much of Europe, but predicts a much larger percentage in the U.S. having been infected previously (like 20.5% in New York, 15% in Texas, etc.) than in Europe (like 2.2% in Germany).

https://covid19-projections.com/maps/

https://covid19-projections.com/maps-europe/
 
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