Decorah trans athlete wants ‘to be part of the team,’ even if Iowa ban won’t let her play

Mar 11, 2020
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That gives me a bit of pause. But. I have a lot of responsibility in my life, and a lot of things I have to take very seriously. I think when it comes to discussing very contentious things that are outside my realm of responsibility and in which I have very little at stake personally; sometimes I relish exercising a potentially irresponsible point of view—especially if I think it has some merit.
Atleast you are real about it. I can respect that.


My vote: let them play JV and only JV or let them play with the biological same sex.
 

artradley

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Whose job is it to verify that the athletes are participating in the sport as the gender they were assigned at birth?

Is there a process for making a complaint or an inquiry regarding a suspicious athlete?

I don’t know, but I assume it is the same entity’s job now that it has been for the previous decades of girls sports.
 

gohawks50

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Those boys played on a co ed field hockey team. They didn't pretend to be girls.

Like Chitkara, Zeke Betancourt was initially concerned about how he would interact and fit in with the team. However, his worries went away as the season started, and he has since bonded with the team as a whole.

“I thought it’d be weird because I didn’t know any of the girls besides [a few], [but] it’s fun getting a different perspective of teams and the difference between guy-sport teams and girl-sport teams,” Zeke said. “I like it a lot. I didn’t think I would, but I like it.”

A co-ed field hockey team is uncommon in the United States, but the varsity field hockey coach, Shelly Fraser, grew up with boys playing the sport and was very supportive of the boys joining the team.


Talk about moving the goal posts, you aren't even playing the same game.
 

gohawks50

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Whose job is it to verify that the athletes are participating in the sport as the gender they were assigned at birth?

Is there a process for making a complaint or an inquiry regarding a suspicious athlete?
I doubt anyone ever checks it, but in Iowa there are copies of each child's birth certificate in their cumulative records. Parents have to present their child's birth certificate in order to start kindergarten. They are used to verify the age of the child. As someone who used to collect these records at kindergarten roundup the only thing I ever looked at carefully was the birthdate. If a parent had dressed a child as the opposite sex and referred to them as the same, I doubt we would have noticed the inconsistency.

As far as verifying an athletes gender I doubt it happens. May be someone who coaches girl's sports can say differently.
 
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Hawkdiver

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About 5 years ago my son and I were talking about this issue (before it was an issue) and my comment was "be careful what you ask for". As I explained to him Title IX does not specifically protect/promote female opportunities but rather equal opportunities. I can see Title IX being brought into this discussion in the near future and it will force changes, just not the changes anyone wants to see.

In the end, the simplest way to comply with Title IX is to make every sport co-ed. Looking at this through a narrow lens would mean every sport essentially becomes male dominated however that would not speak to the equality measure of Title IX. This would then force those co-ed teams to have to have rosters mirroring the overall school enrollment percentages. This could mean 45% male, 50% female, 2% transgendered male, 3% transgendered female or whatever the actual school make up is. This would also force rule changes to ensure playing time, think the co-ed softball rules where you always have to have a certain number of women in the field.

This would result in the loss of opportunities for everyone. Basketball is easy to look at, with a roster of about 15 (including walk ons) you would have a team of at most 7 males and 8 females. Taking this across the NCAA that would cut the number of spots, for both genders in half. I don't think anyone wants to see numbers cut in half (or more) for everyone just because there are a few (very few at this point) people that want to game the system.
 
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Those boys played on a co ed field hockey team. They didn't pretend to be girls.

Like Chitkara, Zeke Betancourt was initially concerned about how he would interact and fit in with the team. However, his worries went away as the season started, and he has since bonded with the team as a whole.

“I thought it’d be weird because I didn’t know any of the girls besides [a few], [but] it’s fun getting a different perspective of teams and the difference between guy-sport teams and girl-sport teams,” Zeke said. “I like it a lot. I didn’t think I would, but I like it.”

A co-ed field hockey team is uncommon in the United States, but the varsity field hockey coach, Shelly Fraser, grew up with boys playing the sport and was very supportive of the boys joining the team.


Talk about moving the goal posts, you aren't even playing the same game.
You have asked for an example of men participating as women, I provided one, you then changed it to "in the US". I then provided one. You then changed it to "in the US in high school" I then provided one where boys played in a female competition and won a state title and now you claim I'm moving the goal post.


Educate yourself on the Irainian team. It was a multi year thing.


You are entrenched. It's unfortunate you don't want females to have a level playing field for competition.


Let them play JV for funsies, let them play with biological same sex. Your emotions are driving decisions. Can you think of a single athletic competition where a biological female has an advantage over a biological male?
 

gohawks50

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About 5 years ago my son and I were talking about this issue (before it was an issue) and my comment was "be careful what you ask for". As I explained to him Title IX does not specifically protect/promote female opportunities but rather equal opportunities. I can see Title IX being brought into this discussion in the near future and it will force changes, just not the changes anyone wants to see.

In the end, the simplest way to comply with Title IX is to make every sport co-ed. Looking at this through a narrow lens would mean every sport essentially becomes male dominated however that would not speak to the equality measure of Title IX. This would then force those co-ed teams to have to have rosters mirroring the overall school enrollment percentages. This could mean 45% male, 50% female, 2% transgendered male, 3% transgendered female or whatever the actual school make up is. This would also force rule changes to ensure playing time, think the co-ed softball rules where you always have to have a certain number of women in the field.

This would result in the loss of opportunities for everyone. Basketball is easy to look at, with a roster of about 15 (including walk ons) you would have a team of at most 7 males and 8 females. Taking this across the NCAA that would cut the number of spots, for both genders in half. I don't think anyone wants to see numbers cut in half (or more) for everyone just because there are a few (very few at this point) people that want to game the system.
You think Gavy is gaming the system?

4KL6HNEQIBCADBBIOF3JDRSOL4.jpg
 
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gohawks50

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You have asked for an example of men participating as women, I provided one, you then changed it to "in the US". I then provided one. You then changed it to "in the US in high school" I then provided one where boys played in a female competition and won a state title and now you claim I'm moving the goal post.


Educate yourself on the Irainian team. It was a multi year thing.


You are entrenched. It's unfortunate you don't want females to have a level playing field for competition.


Let them play JV for funsies, let them play with biological same sex. Your emotions are driving decisions. Can you think of a single athletic competition where a biological female has an advantage over a biological male?
This is what I asked for:
Well this thread is about a high school athlete, but If that's too difficult for you I will take examples of men living as women just so they can compete in women's athletics.
You provided a link accusing the Irainan women's team of having 8 men. Yes, there were accusations that the team had many male members. That's not proof. There are many people who look at some larger athletic women and assume they must be male. There are several on here that question Brittney Griner's gender.

The second example you provided was one where the boys participated in the open as males on a field hockey team. They weren't hiding or pretending to be women to play. The team became co ed. Iowa's law allows co-ed teams so what these boys did would be legal with or without the law.
 
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This is what I asked for:

You provided a link accusing the Irainan women's team of having 8 men. Yes, there were accusations that the team had many male members. That's not proof. There are many people who look at some larger athletic women and assume they must be male. There are several on here that question Brittney Griner's gender.

The second example you provided was one where the boys participated in the open as males on a field hockey team. They weren't hiding or pretending to be women to play. The team became co ed. Iowa's law allows co-ed teams so what these boys did would be legal with or without the law.
The second time. As I noted.

Can you think of a single example of this working the other way where it would be advantageous foe a female to compete in male athletics? I know females that have played boys sports, when young, but it was to.challenge them not because they had an advantage.
 
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You don't get a pass because you are a bad athlete, you are setting the system up to decide who is and isn't too good. We fight some horribly dumb societal battles because people can't use common sense to say no. Stop thinking with your feelings. There were sports males would have liked to play in school that just were not offered, we got told to find another hobby. Deal with it.
 

gohawks50

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The second time. As I noted.

Can you think of a single example of this working the other way where it would be advantageous foe a female to compete in male athletics? I know females that have played boys sports, when young, but it was to.challenge them not because they had an advantage.
I fail to see why this matters. You haven't proven men are transitioning so that they can win against girls. The boys that chose to play field hockey didn't do it because the would excel, they wanted to play field hockey and there wasn't a boys team.
 

gohawks50

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See, that’s what makes this a little complicated. The young person above could easily pass for a girl IMO. That is definitely not the case with Lia Thomas.
I don't know if Gavy takes puberty blockers, but if she is that would keep her from going through male puberty thus reducing physical advantages. Lia didn't take puberty blockers. It could be they weren't available, her parents wouldn't allow them, or Lia didn't express her gender idenity issues until she was an adult.
 
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I don't know if Gavy takes puberty blockers, but if she is that would keep her from going through male puberty thus reducing physical advantages. Lia didn't take puberty blockers. It could be they weren't available, her parents wouldn't allow them, or Lia didn't express her gender idenity issues until she was an adult.
Do you have any issue with M-F or F-M transgenders only being able to play JV athletics?
 

artradley

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See, that’s what makes this a little complicated. The young person above could easily pass for a girl IMO. That is definitely not the case with Lia Thomas.

Plus, this is a child who apparently isn’t any good at any sport. So I’m not really sure why being JV on a boys team is somehow worse than being bench warmer on the girls team - especially if it’s just about being part of a team. There are probably plenty of intramurals available, as well.

Regardless of her situation, the argument here appears to be that this one girl stinks, so biological boys should always be allowed to compete on girls teams. That seems to be a non sequitur.
 

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I thought a transgender person just wanted to be transgender so they could be the sex that they felt like and now days they are given all those opportunities. Now they have been given that opportunity and should feel comfort in their new body.
I just feel like even if you allow them to play a sport that doesn’t align with their biological gender it’s not going to stop there. Next companies will be forced to employ x amount of transgender employees. And so many of them will have to be in management positions. You know that’s gonna be a bigger issues because I’ll start claiming to be an African American woman to get a promotion which will be discrimination to the true transgender African American woman.
 

gohawks50

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Plus, this is a child who apparently isn’t any good at any sport. So I’m not really sure why being JV on a boys team is somehow worse than being bench warmer on the girls team - especially if it’s just about being part of a team. There are probably plenty of intramurals available, as well.

Regardless of her situation, the argument here appears to be that this one girl stinks, so biological boys should always be allowed to compete on girls teams. That seems to be a non sequitur.
How do you think Gavy would be treated in the boys locker room?
 

hawkbirch

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I thought a transgender person just wanted to be transgender so they could be the sex that they felt like and now days they are given all those opportunities. Now they have been given that opportunity and should feel comfort in their new body.
I just feel like even if you allow them to play a sport that doesn’t align with their biological gender it’s not going to stop there. Next companies will be forced to employ x amount of transgender employees. And so many of them will have to be in management positions. You know that’s gonna be a bigger issues because I’ll start claiming to be an African American woman to get a promotion which will be discrimination to the true transgender African American woman.
That sounds like a you problem rather than a transgender problem.
 
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cjr1310

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Plus, this is a child who apparently isn’t any good at any sport. So I’m not really sure why being JV on a boys team is somehow worse than being bench warmer on the girls team - especially if it’s just about being part of a team. There are probably plenty of intramurals available, as well.

Regardless of her situation, the argument here appears to be that this one girl stinks, so biological boys should always be allowed to compete on girls teams. That seems to be a non sequitur.
I think the argument is that trans can mean many things, only some of which would give them an advantage over biological females.

If the issue is fairness how would making Gavy, who is likely physically as developed as a prepubescent boy, play against high school boys be more fair than playing against high school girls?

I have no issue with saying someone like Lea Thomas shouldn’t be competing in women’s sports but this isn’t remotely the same issue.

Below is a link to how Utah had planned to handle the issue, if the issue is truly fairness and not wanting to create a boogeyman out of trans people this seems like an obviously fair solution for everyone.

 
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hawkbirch

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I think the argument is that trans can mean many things, only some of which would give them an advantage over biological females.

If the issue is fairness how would making Gavy, who is likely physically as developed as a prepubescent boy, play against high school boys be more fair than playing against high school girls?

I have no issue with saying someone like Lea Thomas shouldn’t be competing in women’s sports but this isn’t remotely the same issue.

Below is a link to how Utah had planned to handle the issue, if the issue is truly fairness and not wanting to create a boogeyman out of trans people this seems like an obviously fair solution for everyone.

That seems like a much more reasonable way to address the issue.
 

gohawks50

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I bet it is all puppy dogs and rainbows in the girls locker room because girls don’t bully….🙄
From the OP's article:

“The girls were a little bit more supportive,” she said. “Already before that most of my friends were girls. They did have questions and stuff. I do remember sometimes they (boys) were not as supportive and I did get bullied sometimes.”

One advantage Gavy has is that she has been living as a girl since she was in 3rd grade. The kids are probably used to her as a girl by now and don't really think about it, but puberty causes adolescents to behave differently with mood swings and behavior changes. I'm sure there is bullying from both sides, but boys tend to be more physical with their bullying so for that reason I think she is safer with girls.
 
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gohawks50

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Probably...but maybe he is intending to prescribe some medicine to fix the problem. If so, no, not a WOB. If not...a DEFINITE, and these days, quite rare, WOB. :)
I am definitely a bad speller so I rely on spell check. The only problem is when you spell the wrong word correctly. I should have said anecdotally. Maybe it is a WOB!
 
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