Diner owner refuses SHS service on moral grounds

[TJ8869]

But can they eat cake?

You sure have a wierd way at looking at things. You’re ok with not serving two gay people but are ok with serving the KKK.

I would be perfectly fine with a baker refusing to create a cake for a KKK event and I would not be okay at all with the Red Hen or any other restaurant refusing to seat a gay couple.

If you weren’t such a goddamn idiot you might be capable of comparing apples to apples.

 

[SB_SB]

As I have stated many times here and in the past, the gay couple has every right to buy anything that’s for sale in his display case. And he did in fact offer to sell them anything they wanted out of the display case. In fact, if I’m not mistaken he had actually sold products to them in the past and has created custom cakes for gay customers for birthdays and other special events. He simply declined to create a cake specifically for their wedding.

you’re back to making up the rules again. If you and the baker can make up the rules then why can’t the restaurant make their own rules. I don’t care if someone is selling lemonade on the corner, if the baker doesn’t have to sell to tye gay people then the lemonade salesman shouldn’t have to sell to everyone. It’s that simple.

 

[SB_SB]

I would be perfectly fine with a baker refusing to create a cake for a KKK event and I would not be okay at all with the Red Hen or any other restaurant refusing to seat a gay couple.

If you weren’t such a goddamn idiot you might be capable of comparing apples to apples.

Back to name calling. You need to start a web site with all your rules. www.TJ8869.rules.for.discrimination.com

 

[BelemNole]

WTF are you even talking about? You keep trying to conflate two situations that absolutely are not the same and expect people to apply the same standards to each situation.

I’m telling you exactly what I think the standard should be in each situation and how it should be applied regardless of who is involved.

Yeah, when you set standards for when discrimination is acceptable you’re doing something wrong.

 

[The Tradition]

Yeah, when you set standards for when discrimination is acceptable you’re doing something wrong.

So, no dress codes? That's discriminating against people who don't have nice clothes.

 

[gusto79]

As I have stated many times here and in the past, the gay couple has every right to buy anything that’s for sale in his display case. And he did in fact offer to sell them anything they wanted out of the display case. In fact, if I’m not mistaken he had actually sold products to them in the past and has created custom cakes for gay customers for birthdays and other special events. He simply declined to create a cake specifically for their wedding.

Yeah I agree with you on this part.

 

[DrVenkman]

Almost 5 pages because that fat bitch had to miss a meal ?

You all are sad. Maybe she should just go get a custom cake like she normally does.

 

[TJ8869]

Yeah, when you set standards for when discrimination is acceptable you’re doing something wrong.

Fair enough. No more rules. No standards. No discrimination of any kind.

Every business owner has to serve every customer who walks through his door, no matter the circumstances.

That should be a lot of fun.

 

[BrianNole09]

I always do my best to treat people, including those I disagree with, respectfully and will continue to do so

If you have ever watched a couple of her press briefings you would know this is a flat out lie

This.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders is just trash. Pure and simple.

 

[Joes Place]

A restaurant can certainly enforce an anti-bigot code as long as the anti-bigotry code is enforced equally for every customer.

FIFY

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Good for them.

As bad or worse as the "no cake for gays" idiots.

 

[Joes Place]

 

[tumorboy]

 

[herk90]

Good for them.

So you agree that a business owner can refuse to serve someone because of who they are? So theynguy who chose not to bake a cake?

 

[Raglefant]

TJ, I'm interested in your take in this thread and have clarification questions.

You equate baking a wedding cake to a restaurant catering a wedding, as opposed to cooking a burger off the menu. Why? If the Baker is not asked to attend or even deliver the cake to the gay wedding, and therefore is not participating in the same way the preacher, pianist, or photographer is, then how is the baker similar to them? The baker is simply creating food in his place of business for pickup by a customer. I don't know why in the world the time it takes to make it would constitute an important difference? Can you explain why you think time is relevant?

You seem to suggest that it being "custom" has significance? Why? For a custom cake baker, baking a custom cake is a standard menu item. Regular customers walk in and order custom cakes all day every day. They probably even look thru a book of options and often choose an existing design just like from a "menu." I might understand if the baker was asked to create a pornographic scene or something, but if it's simply a wedding cake, not unlike the ones made for any other customer, AND the customer is going to come pick it up, isn't that more like a customer ordering a burger, or let's say 25 burgers, ordered a few days in advance for pick up, each with customized toppings and ingredients?

I would agree that a baker should not be forced to attend or participate in the wedding if it's against their beliefs, but if they're being asked to bake a cake for pick up exactly like they do for anyone else, then I am of the opinion they should have to make the cake. What am I missing?

 

[swagsurfer02]

I wouldn’t eat there.

 

[EasyHawk]

I wouldn’t eat there.

 

[Franisdaman]

Cons: DISCRIMINATION IS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT!

Also Cons: YOU CAN’T DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ME!

My God. Seriously?

 

[hawkcub]

I probably won't be going to Lexington VA anytime soon.

 

[hawkcub]

Thinking the waiter probably had to be kind of pissed. The owners attitude just cost him a good tip since we are talking 7 people.

 

[TJ8869]

TJ, I'm interested in your take in this thread and have clarification questions.

You equate baking a wedding cake to a restaurant catering a wedding, as opposed to cooking a burger off the menu. Why? If the Baker is not asked to attend or even deliver the cake to the gay wedding, and therefore is not participating in the same way the preacher, pianist, or photographer is, then how is the baker similar to them? The baker is simply creating food in his place of business for pickup by a customer. I don't know why in the world the time it takes to make it would constitute an important difference? Can you explain why you think time is relevant?

You seem to suggest that it being "custom" has significance? Why? For a custom cake baker, baking a custom cake is a standard menu item. Regular customers walk in and order custom cakes all day every day. They probably even look thru a book of options and often choose an existing design just like from a "menu." I might understand if the baker was asked to create a pornographic scene or something, but if it's simply a wedding cake, not unlike the ones made for any other customer, AND the customer is going to come pick it up, isn't that more like a customer ordering a burger, or let's say 25 burgers, ordered a few days in advance for pick up, each with customized toppings and ingredients?

I would agree that a baker should not be forced to attend or participate in the wedding if it's against their beliefs, but if they're being asked to bake a cake for pick up exactly like they do for anyone else, then I am of the opinion they should have to make the cake. What am I missing?

I think it really boils down to the definition of what constitutes a business of "public accommodation".

If you run a restaurant or a hotel or a grocery store then your business is one of public accommodation. People can come in and eat a meal or rent a room for the night or purchase groceries. I don't believe that designing, baking, and decorating a custom wedding is a public accommodation. Each one of his cakes is a unique expression of his artistic talent. They take hours to create. They are a direct reflection of him and his business.

If he puts a product in the display case for sale then anyone should be able to walk in and buy it. But asking him to spend hours using his artistic talent to create a custom product is different and he should have some control over what he chooses to do.

I don't condone him turning gay customers away, but I think he should have a right to do it without having the government stepping in and forcing him to do it or else close his business.

 

[Raglefant]

I think it really boils down to the definition of what constitutes a business of "public accommodation".

If you run a restaurant or a hotel or a grocery store then your business is one of public accommodation. People can come in and eat a meal or rent a room for the night or purchase groceries. I don't believe that designing, baking, and decorating a custom wedding is a public accommodation. Each one of his cakes is a unique expression of his artistic talent. They take hours to create. They are a direct reflection of him and his business.

If he puts a product in the display case for sale then anyone should be able to walk in and buy it. But asking him to spend hours using his artistic talent to create a custom product is different and he should have some control over what he chooses to do.

I don't condone him turning gay customers away, but I think he should have a right to do it without having the government stepping in and forcing him to do it or else close his business.

A bakery is a public accommodation. I think you're dramatically over hyping the baking of a cake. Often customers walk in and pick a cake from pictures in a book. How is a bakery, that is open to the public, not a public accommodation? Can you find a source that says otherwise? I found many that specifically list bakery as subject to public accommodation. Do you really believe it's the time required to make it? It's the second time you've mentioned it, but do you genuinely believe that is important? There are definitely other examples we could find where food preparation takes a long time... smoking meats? Duck confit? How long does it need to take in order to refuse to serve homosexuals?

I understand that it "feels" to you like baking a cake is different in some important way, but I'm having a hard time seeing what way specifically. How is asking a baker to spend hours creating a cake different in an important way?

 

[Rudolph]

If this restaurant told Kathy Griffin they would rather not have her business I’m fairly certain of two things: 1) libs wouldn’t care, and 2) libs would not be crying discrimination.

If the baker who denied service to a gay couple whose very public role involved persistent and brazen lying and providing cover for corruption and obstruction (among other things) by the president, then I suspect few people would care.

That said, I would have served her and maybe set a plate down with “why do you lie for a liar?” written in ketchup or something. Or, “you’re aiding and abetting corruption and obstruction.”

 

[hawkssox1]

My God. Seriously?

Lefty's gonna left.

 

[Rudolph]

Lefty's gonna left.

And right’s gonna right. SHS being denied service is not akin to the gay couple being denied service. The right, predictably, is stretching and straining to make it so, but it’s just not.

Bars and restaurants enforce a dress code: not discrimination. Bars don’t let known assholes in, or quickly and expediently remove them: not discrimination. SHS is the known asshole that the restaurant prefers not to serve. That same restaurant, should they choose to deny service to, say, Kathy Griffin would I’m sure be just fine with lefties. This is simply not discrimination in the legal sense.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

She does very well in my opinion. Especially with an unhinged and agenda driven press corp.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

 

[TJ8869]

A bakery is a public accommodation. I think you're dramatically over hyping the baking of a cake. Often customers walk in and pick a cake from pictures in a book. How is a bakery, that is open to the public, not a public accommodation? Can you find a source that says otherwise? I found many that specifically list bakery as subject to public accommodation. Do you really believe it's the time required to make it? It's the second time you've mentioned it, but do you genuinely believe that is important? There are definitely other examples we could find where food preparation takes a long time... smoking meats? Duck confit? How long does it need to take in order to refuse to serve homosexuals?

I understand that it "feels" to you like baking a cake is different in some important way, but I'm having a hard time seeing what way specifically. How is asking a baker to spend hours creating a cake different in an important way?

Selling baked goods out of a display constitutes a public accommodation. Designing, baking, and decorating a custom cake for a specific customer for a specific event does not.

The smoked meat example is yet another false equivalency. When you smoke a brisket you leave it on the smoker for 12 hours and tend to it occasionally while you are doing a hundred other things and then when it’s done you carve it up and sell it to a dozen random people who walk in and order brisket off the menu.

When you create a custom wedding cake you put all your focus and energy into that singular task for the duration.

A better comparison might be the difference
between buying a set of golf clubs versus signing up for a series of golf lessons. Or the difference between handing your camera to someone and asking them to take a picture of you and your friend versus commissioning someone to paint a portrait of you and your friend.

 

[hawkssox1]

View embedded media

Hey I am tickled with this most people will see it as it is and the results will be similar to 2016.Keep up the good work.

 

[Joes Place]

So you agree that a business owner can refuse to serve someone because of who they are?

No. Try again.

 

[hawkssox1]

No. Try again.

You and your ilk keep up the good work.

 

[SB_SB]

Selling baked goods out of a display constitutes a public accommodation. Designing, baking, and decorating a custom cake for a specific customer for a specific event does not.

The smoked meat example is yet another false equivalency. When you smoke a brisket you leave it on the smoker for 12 hours and tend to it occasionally while you are doing a hundred other things and then when it’s done you carve it up and sell it to a dozen random people who walk in and order brisket off the menu.

When you create a custom wedding cake you put all your focus and energy into that singular task for the duration.

A better comparison might be the difference
between buying a set of golf clubs versus signing up for a series of golf lessons. Or the difference between handing your camera to someone and asking them to take a picture of you and your friend versus commissioning someone to paint a portrait of you and your friend.

You must be a baker. No one talks about cake makers the way you do. News flash, it’s a cake with decorations on it, not a Monet.

when do you anticipate the web site being live?

 

[The Tradition]

You must be a baker. No one talks about cake makers the way you do. News flash, it’s a cake with decorations on it, not a Monet.

when do you anticipate the web site being live?

You obviously haven't seen the types of cakes that this guy makes.

 

[TJ8869]

You obviously haven't seen the types of cakes that this guy makes.

He’s no Monet, but he’s somewhere north of Betty Crocker.

 

[SB_SB]

You obviously haven't seen the types of cakes that this guy makes.

There’s bakers in every town doing those. You might be fooled but I’m not impressed. Again it’s not a Monet. Do you want me to post pictures of meals that look fancy as well. A cook making a meal can claim their just as creative as a cake maker.

 

[TJ8869]

Do you want me to post pictures of meals that look fancy as well.

Yes, please do.

 

[Joes Place]

You and your ilk keep up the good work.

We will

 

[Rudolph]

Selling baked goods out of a display constitutes a public accommodation. Designing, baking, and decorating a custom cake for a specific customer for a specific event does not.

The smoked meat example is yet another false equivalency. When you smoke a brisket you leave it on the smoker for 12 hours and tend to it occasionally while you are doing a hundred other things and then when it’s done you carve it up and sell it to a dozen random people who walk in and order brisket off the menu.

When you create a custom wedding cake you put all your focus and energy into that singular task for the duration.

A better comparison might be the difference
between buying a set of golf clubs versus signing up for a series of golf lessons. Or the difference between handing your camera to someone and asking them to take a picture of you and your friend versus commissioning someone to paint a portrait of you and your friend.

Look, it's illegal to discriminate based on sexuality, period. It's also illegal to discriminate based on religion, period. There are overlapping interests for which a reasonable line can be drawn. Make the cake, not required to put anything obscene on the cake (straight or otherwise), don't have to be required to directly participate in the ceremony. Easy. Surely there is a middle ground that ensures the rights of each protected class aren't trampled on—this, to me, is the (potential) greatness of a multi-cultural, open, cooperative, collaborative society—this, to me, is my ideal America, one committed to finding middle grounds that ultimately teach us to find our commonness despite our differences.

Unfortunately America seems hellbent on disagreeing and being disagreeable, shunning any and all information that might pierce through whatever safe-space bullshit, contrived ideological bubble in which they've insulated and isolated themselves. Some of this, I believe, is the unintended consequences of social media, some of it is the very intended consequence of a binary, bought political system, some of it is a function of corporate interests taking advantage of a populace that becomes ever-more predictable the more striated and packaged it becomes. In a capitalist, consumerist society, the more micro-targetable the "market" becomes, the more predictable it is. Predictability is gold to marketers.

Anyways, as I said in post 185, SHS was not discriminated against in the legal sense. Her free speech rights are not restricted. She can keep lying all she wants, just as the prick in the bar can keep being a prick, but there are consequences. She may be denied service, just as the prick in the bar may be asked to leave. People are forgetting that SHS is a public servant (in theory). Her job is public, the restaurant is public, her job performance might have public consequences.

 

[SB_SB]

Yes, please do.

Someone already posted a few pictures of cooks. Why do you feel a cook that makes cakes is more creative than a cook who makes dinners. Do you bake cakes for a living?

 

[Rudolph]

You obviously haven't seen the types of cakes that this guy makes.

These are pretty formulaic. Customization is in the superficial stuff. He's good at what he does, but it's not like he's doing the crazy shit on some of these food tv shows. Was he asked to make a cake depicting a sexual act? Sodomy? Handy?

If I was this cake-maker with his ideology/worldview my response would have been, "I'll make the cake, give it a fairly basic, generic treatment, anything beyond that (such as two male figurines on top of the cake) I respectfully ask you do it yourself. I also ask that you please pick up the cake or arrange for a third party to deliver." There is middle ground.

Outright refusal to make a cake due to sexual orientation is illegal discrimination for a reason.