Do we need Centers?

[Jizzer]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

 

[ObeseMuffins]

Seems to be a key to doing well in the Big 10 but not in the Big Dance.

 

[Jan Itor]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

Arkansas had a 7'.... And those teams you mention had starters and reserves that were 6-7 to 6-9 and athletic as hell. Quick and could create their own shot when they wanted to. I like PM, KM, & KM, but they, at least now, are not the caliber of players we saw on many of those teams.

 

[BBHawk]

No. Iowa doesn't need a 7 footer but they need players big enough or quick enough to guard a center. They will have them on the roster in 2021-2022.

Whether they actually choose to play defense is another matter. But they will have the potential to do it.

 

[unoHawkeye]

I’m convinced that Iowa could have won a championship with Woodbury at center if guard/wing play was elite. USC probably had the best big man duo in the tournament this year with the Mobley brothers, but when they ran into Gonzaga, lost by 19 despite 19 and 17 points scored by the two. Timme had a great game, but the difference was Suggs, Kispert, and Cook off the bench. Garza dropped 36 and 9 on 70% shooting and we lost by 15...

If your 5 has some defensive versatility, can grab boards, and protect the rim, then that’s all he needs to do to give your team a chance. Guard play needs to be elite, and continues to be the reason why Iowa gets bounced early in March. Unless they are elite at both ends of the floor (think Anthony Davis), centers have never played a smaller factor in how deep a team advances in March as they do today

 

[hooper56]

There are many ways to skin a cat and it is true that several schools will play a lineup of 3 guards and 2 forwards or even 4 guards and a forward. Doing this will be fine until you play a team with a dominant big man. But even so there are ways to play so that the opposing Center can't get the ball in scoring position. The Murray twins are plenty big enough to guard the post area, and we have Josh and Riley off the bench when we need them. Even Patrick is quick enough to front the post and make it difficult. Perkins is a tough little guard who can get you rebounds and steals. I really like our team with or without a transfer Big.

 

[unoHawkeye]

There are many ways to skin a cat and it is true that several schools will play a lineup of 3 guards and 2 forwards or even 4 guards and a forward. Doing this will be fine until you play a team with a dominant big man. But even so there are ways to play so that the opposing Center can't get the ball in scoring position. The Murray twins are plenty big enough to guard the post area, and we have Josh and Riley off the bench when we need them. Even Patrick is quick enough to front the post and make it difficult. Perkins is a tough little guard who can get you rebounds and steals. I really like our team with or without a transfer Big.

Agreed. Robbins would have been great for his rim protection abilities, but I actually really like the idea of the Murray’s putting on a few (like five) pounds of quality weight, getting stronger, and running with a lineup of:

Toussaint/Ulis
Fredrick/Perkins
PMcCaffery
Murray
Murray

There’s enough length there to consistently challenge shots, athleticism/instincts to be fairly successful grabbing rebounds and playing help defense, and offensive ability to generate mismatches against other teams’ big men. As you said regarding Perkins, I kind of get some Joel Ayayi vibes from him in terms of ability to crash the boards (he was the guy who had 18 rebounds against Iowa)

 

[RocknRollface]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

Center doesn't mean back to the basket player.

Its a more generic term.

Do we need back to the basket players? No. This is hardly a revelation since the majority of teams in college and pros don't use back to the basket players.

I think of a center as someone who defends the rim.

Baylor and Gonzaga definitely both had a center. Baylor had 2.

The modern center is a screener, rebounder and rim protector who often now can also shoot a jump shot.

 

[Willin]

I think it really benefits a team when it has a variety of ways it can score, including traditional post moves. These can be performed by any on the team, and really, nearly all players should have post moves for times when they have a mismatch, such as a 5-11 player guarding Perkins. If Perkins has an effective post move or two, take advantage of that mismatch and post him up. Also, when 3s aren't falling, you need other ways to score. Post play is also a way to get an opponent in foul trouble.

 

[CyberJJ]

Center doesn't mean back to the basket player.

Its a more generic term.

Do we need back to the basket players? No. This is hardly a revelation since the majority of teams in college and pros don't use back to the basket players.

I think of a center as someone who defends the rim.

Baylor and Gonzaga definitely both had a center. Baylor had 2.

The modern center is a screener, rebounder and rim protector who often now can also shoot a jump shot.

I think that can be true, when you have elite guards. When you don't and can't play that way, an elite center like Garza is a different way of playing if you surround him with shooters. Put smaller centers/forwards there without improving guard play is not a good recipe. One of the comments Fran made last year was that at times the second unit guys sometimes struggled to score, even when they improved the defense. I was actually pleasantly surprised that Iowa's starting group was able to play more effective man-to-man D at the end of the season (if you forget the Oregon game)

 

[RocknRollface]

I think that can be true, when you have elite guards. When you don't and can't play that way, an elite center like Garza is a different way of playing if you surround him with shooters. Put smaller centers/forwards there without improving guard play is not a good recipe. One of the comments Fran made last year was that at times the second unit guys sometimes struggled to score, even when they improved the defense. I was actually pleasantly surprised that Iowa's starting group was able to play more effective man-to-man D at the end of the season (if you forget the Oregon game)

I agree.

I was just saying a certain height or skill set doesn't necessarily make a player a center or not one.

 

[CyberJJ]

I agree.

I was just saying a certain height or skill set doesn't necessarily make a player a center or not one.

True. One of the things I love about watching March Madness is that you get to see how different coaching philosophies and game plans play out. Fran has always seemed to like to have lots of height, even if he gave up a bit of athleticism to get it. The questions becomes does he play a given style because of the talent he is able to land, or is he landing the talent that fits his system?

 

[Hawk68]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

I believe this is the wish of every coach in every conference.

 

[33hawkfan]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

We should get a team full of really athletic 6’6 - 6’9 guys who can all handle, shoot, and guard all five positions. This would make us really tough to play.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

I think we should get 7 - 8 foot basketball players that can run , like Usain Bolt ,pass like Jason Kidd,, dribble like kyrie Irving drive like Zack Levine ,defend like Hakeem Olajuwon and shoot like Steph Currey. Maybe then we could win a B1G championship and get a good seed in the tourney , maybe even make a sweet sixteen . Nah but we’d still have soft serve ice cream.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

I would have loved to get Robbins, but there aren't very many true centers with that level of skill. With Mulvey and Big O, we already have two really large guys. They just aren't experienced/skilled enough yet to compete with top centers (I don't think, but would love to be proven wrong). Another long, athletic, Keegan-type player (e.g., Rebraca) with experience would be a great addition, and would usually allow us to match up better on the defensive end, except for the few teams with monsters at center (e.g., UM and Purdon't).

 

[BBHawk]

I would have loved to get Robbins, but there aren't very many true centers with that level of skill. With Mulvey and Big O, we already have two really large guys. They just aren't experienced/skilled enough yet to compete with top centers (I don't think, but would love to be proven wrong). Another long, athletic, Keegan-type player (e.g., Rebraca) with experience would be a great addition, and would usually allow us to match up better on the defensive end, except for the few teams with monsters at center (e.g., UM and Purdon't).

Purdue lost to N TX State in the NCAA Tournament this year. N TX had 2 players at 6'10", no one else over 6'7".

You don't need height to guard tall if you have 6'8" - 6'9" with length and quickness.

 

[Jizzer]

We should get a team full of really athletic 6’6 - 6’9 guys who can all handle, shoot, and guard all five positions. This would make us really tough to play.

Odd how easily you missed the point. I'm just saying, keep the backcourt with our guards, but instead of focusing on getting 6-11/7 foot true "center", just push a front court of more 6-8/6-9 guys and continually throw them at the basket.

 

[kcgolfer]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

I agree. I’d much rather have a team of guys 6’7 to 6’9 that are athletic.

 

[Ronman]

I'd rather have the "plodding" Garza and a bunch of 6'6" playmakers around him.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Trying to think of the last team that advanced deep in March with a traditional post player. Drawing a blank. It's a bit puzzling that Fran wants to play fast, shoot 3's and have a traditional post. Hard to argue with feeding Garza the past 2-3 years, but he was a rare talent that we may not see the likes of again at Iowa. Oregon implemented the 'give Garza his 30 and shut everyone else down' and that pretty much crippled Iowa. Similar issues in both Indiana games where the guards were pretty much blanketed and were ineffective.

I opt for having 3-4 first round NBA draft picks in the starting 5 and winning solely based on superior talent.

 

[mazda1]

Yes. We’ll need an answer for teams that have a BIG. Don’t let game sway your opinion. We don’t have multiple 6-8 guys who can get the ball off the glass.

 

[twindman]

For those thinking we can play against tall/big centers, remember when Garza was on the bench and Keegan was trying to stop one of those bigs - maybe Kofi??? The other guy just dribbled and dribbled and back him right to the rim.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

After watching the success of so many teams in the tourney without huge, plodding centers, do we really need one? Why not get 4 or 5 6-9 guys that can all drive, block, defend, and rebound well? UCLA, Houston, Gonzaga(Timme not really a true center but 6-10), Oregon, Baylor, Bama, Arkansas, and the list goes on. Seems like all were just fast at every position, with guys that could do everything. Keegan, Kris, and Pat remind me of this. Maybe if we land Rebraca, he could be another and just rotate these guys in and out. This of course comes on the heels of missing out on Liam, but I'm starting to think, not having a true/slow center isn't the key to advancing far in the tourneys.

If you have good enough guards that can create and score, then no........

If not, like Iowa, then yes, because otherwise you WILL get f***ed by the other team's PFs and CT.

Fortunately, Iowa has had decent scoring success at that position to balancing out or cancel out that area from other teams. It's the defensive aspect that has left something to be desired for a while now.....as we all know.

But again, get scoring guards that can stretch the floor and render 4s and 5s useless in an up and down game and it doesn't matter if you have anything more than a serviceable 4 filling in as a 5 in today's game....................................unfortunately.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Having a slower bigger center limits your defense. Iowa's defense was very vulnerable to pick and roll, when Luka was left in space with a guy he could not guard, and the opposing center often had either an open shot at the basket or a huge mismatch, when the opposing guard was good enough to take advantage.

On the flip side, not having a big guy to defend the basket, which Luka actually learned to do pretty well, especially this year, can present a problem, if you don't have a couple of guys like Keegan, hopefully several, who can defend the rim. If Iowa can get a true 4 transfer, who can defend around the basket and lane, Iowa can definitely have success next year. It is possible that Patrick and Kris can also help defend the basket, as they continue to add muscle. We will have two inexperienced true Big men who should be able to play to give minutes at the 5.

 

[pocha444444]

Trying to think of the last team that advanced deep in March with a traditional post player. Drawing a blank. It's a bit puzzling that Fran wants to play fast, shoot 3's and have a traditional post. Hard to argue with feeding Garza the past 2-3 years, but he was a rare talent that we may not see the likes of again at Iowa. Oregon implemented the 'give Garza his 30 and shut everyone else down' and that pretty much crippled Iowa. Similar issues in both Indiana games where the guards were pretty much blanketed and were ineffective.

I opt for having 3-4 first round NBA draft picks in the starting 5 and winning solely based on superior talent.

Agree on that it's always puzzling that Fran wants to play fast with a huge lineup. He loves playing two centers, hell he even had Nunge playing wing his first year.

To answer your first question, off the top of my head Krutwig from Loyola. And then further back you had Kaminsky and Towns. I'm sure there were some in between there that I'm not thinking of but tournament time is usually dominated by guard play.

Edit: Forgot Okafor for Duke and also Timme this year.

 

[Jizzer]

For those thinking we can play against tall/big centers, remember when Garza was on the bench and Keegan was trying to stop one of those bigs - maybe Kofi??? The other guy just dribbled and dribbled and back him right to the rim.

Kofi does that to anyone though. Assuming he goes pro, the Big Ten only has one huge center in Dickinson that could do this to Keegan.

 

[HawkOn15]

Trying to think of the last team that advanced deep in March with a traditional post player. Drawing a blank. It's a bit puzzling that Fran wants to play fast, shoot 3's and have a traditional post. Hard to argue with feeding Garza the past 2-3 years, but he was a rare talent that we may not see the likes of again at Iowa. Oregon implemented the 'give Garza his 30 and shut everyone else down' and that pretty much crippled Iowa. Similar issues in both Indiana games where the guards were pretty much blanketed and were ineffective.

I opt for having 3-4 first round NBA draft picks in the starting 5 and winning solely based on superior talent.

Villanova when they won it in 2016 had a traditional post. UNC and Gonzaga both had traditional post in the 2017 championship. Michigan just made it to an elite 8 with a traditional post also.

 

[Greenway4Prez]

I agree. I’d much rather have a team of guys 6’7 to 6’9 that are athletic.

Easier to defend size, than speed.

 

[Ronman]

Trying to think of the last team that advanced deep in March with a traditional post player. Drawing a blank. It's a bit puzzling that Fran wants to play fast, shoot 3's and have a traditional post. Hard to argue with feeding Garza the past 2-3 years, but he was a rare talent that we may not see the likes of again at Iowa. Oregon implemented the 'give Garza his 30 and shut everyone else down' and that pretty much crippled Iowa. Similar issues in both Indiana games where the guards were pretty much blanketed and were ineffective.

I opt for having 3-4 first round NBA draft picks in the starting 5 and winning solely based on superior talent.

2021 Gonzaga?

 

[RocknRollface]

I'd rather have the "plodding" Garza and a bunch of 6'6" playmakers around him.

How often do Garza's come around?

Once in a........

Not really a repeatable formula imo.

Id be satisfied with a guy who can defend, block shots and rebound at a high level.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Kofi does that to anyone though. Assuming he goes pro, the Big Ten only has one huge center in Dickinson that could do this to Keegan.

Also Purdon't.

 

[bdcolt45er]

I think you need to be able to defend the the interior but don't necessarily need a traditional post scoring presence.

 

[Jizzer]

Also Purdon't.

Williams is smaller though. Unless you are talking about the 7-4 kid, which wouldn't matter if we have a 7 footer at that point.

 

[amahawk]

The best team is a versatile one . It can play big or small, fast or slow. Each game is unique.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Williams is smaller though. Unless you are talking about the 7-4 kid, which wouldn't matter if we have a 7 footer at that point.

Williams is a brut around the basket on both ends and is probably 6-10 and 250+. The freshman Edey is a monster, and his game was coming on toward the end of the year. They also just got the Indiana POY, who is a center, in their next recruiting class. The Boilers are stacked at center.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

2021 Gonzaga?

Fair enough. I am not sure how to categorize Timme. He plays the 5 but he is more of a Euro big IMO compared to Garza, Kofi, Johnson at Rutgers or Purdue's post. Splitting hairs maybe, so good point.

 

[RocknRollface]

Williams is smaller though. Unless you are talking about the 7-4 kid, which wouldn't matter if we have a 7 footer at that point.

Smaller than who?

Koffi and Dickinson I guess but he's 6'10 265 and a better post scorer than either of the other 2.

Williams is probably the most traditional post in the league now that Luka is gone.

If UM had Williams they wouldn't have lost to UCLA, he's stronger than Dickinson, plays lower and gets where he wants to.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Smaller than who?

Koffi and Dickinson I guess but he's 6'10 265 and a better post scorer than either of the other 2.

Williams is probably the most traditional post in the league now that Luka is gone.

If UM had Williams they wouldn't have lost to UCLA, he's stronger than Dickinson, plays lower and gets where he wants to.

Good to see that I am not the only person who believes Williams is a really good center. He can't shoot outside 10-12 feet, including free throws, but his interior game is great on both ends. Boilers are going to be scary good in the post.