Do You Believe in Karl Marx or Adam Smith?

[ping72]

Somewhere in the middle. Neither is viable in an absolute, IMO.

 

[LuteHawk]

I believe in Kate Smith. Her recording of "God Bless America"
is the gold standard for that song. For some folks it makes
their eyes a little moist and their heart a little pumped up.

 

[ping72]

Marxism helped collapse the Soviet Union and led to mass poverty.

Capitalism has created the most prosperous, powerful, free and uplifting country in the history of the human race.

There has never been an organized country that was completely one or the other.

The US is not a completely capitalist country, and would be a giant shithole if it were.

 

[sober_teacher]

You are saying that Communism is an economic theory?

Communism as we saw it in real life? No. But communism as we know it has very little with Marxs communist manifesto; which, in a nutshell, envisioned a world where essentially everything was run by trade unions for the benefit of all. It ultimately fails in my book because in Marx’s world, everyone would be content to have the same as everyone else. All other things aside, humans are inherently competitive people and are only rarely content.

 

[West Dundee Hawkeye]

You are saying that Communism is an economic theory?

Yes

 

[ft254]

Marxism helped collapse the Soviet Union and led to mass poverty.

Capitalism has created the most prosperous, powerful, free and uplifting country in the history of the human race.

Capitalism moved manufacturing out of the country. It works when the conditions are best for capitalism. it is not a loyal system.

Marxism is no more than the latest boogeyman concept the rightwing media has littered the airwaves. You didn't hear about it 6 months ago, now it's the new "go to" for the wingnuts. A new catch-all phrase that caught on with the simple minds.

Marxism helped collapse the Soviet Union ....????

JFC, education, anyone!

 

[seminole97]

Smith's world was Venezuela before Chavez. Marx's world was Venezuela under Chevez.

God knows whose idea gave us Venezuela today, but they deserve to be shot.

You'll have to ask the Modern Monetary Theorists why Venezuela printing their national currency as much as their government saw fit to spend resulted in collapsing economic output.

 

[seminole97]

Ike's warning is more true now more than ever. We would fold and die if we didn't have the military industrial complex. Southern states economies would go away.

Why would we 'fold and die' if we quit spending resources on F-35s and instead spent them on the things people want to spend their money on if you don't take it from them and give it to defense contractors?

 

[ft254]

Why would we 'fold and die' if we quit spending resources on F-35s and instead spent them on the things people want to spend their money on if you don't take it from them and give it to defense contractors?

That's a convoluted question tied in knots, which I gave up trying to untangle, but Eisenhower knew full well, and predicted the trap this country was to fall into. Perpetual military growth and spending that fuels itself is inevitable.

Once a country is established as a majority nation, equal strength will be sought. The escalation cycle will begin again. Fortunately or not, we have reached to point weapons are too devastating to use.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Neither

My views on the matter sort of relate to GK Chesteron's view that the problem with captialism is that we don't have enough capitalism.

What he means for those who arn't educated on the matter is that too many people are salaried employees and not enough people have an ownership stake on the means in which they make a living.

So I believe in a regulated free market, but I'm not a capitalist because I'm an employee.

 

[seminole97]

Fortunately or not, we have reached to point we weapons too devastating to use.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Why would we 'fold and die' if we quit spending resources on F-35s and instead spent them on the things people want to spend their money on if you don't take it from them and give it to defense contractors?

It's not just US tax payers doing the buying.

 

[ft254]

Marxism/Communism is a social/political/economic concept, totally dependent on each of these components. The Red army had political commissars within its ranks at the division level and naval (vessel Captain) equivalents to ensure military obedience to Soviet government principals. The Soviet leader had absolute authority over all matters. Private ownership of land and businesses was forbidden; the State had total control and ownership.

So, the Russian citizens went from control and authoritarianism from Tsar Nicholas 2, to control and authoritarianism from Lenin through a marvelous, glorious bloody revolution.

 

[sober_teacher]

Marxism/Communism is a social/political/economic concept, totally dependent on each of these components. The Red army had political commissars within its ranks at the division level and naval (vessel Captain) equivalents to ensure military obedience to Soviet government principals. The Soviet leader had absolute authority over all matters. Private ownership of land and businesses was forbidden; the State had total control and ownership.

So, the Russian citizens went from control and authoritarianism from Tsar Nicholas 2, to control and authoritarianism from Lenin through a marvelous, glorious bloody revolution.

Again though. What we saw in the Soviet Union vs what Marx envisioned are not at all the same thing.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I’m a Richard Marxist

 

[ft254]

Again though. What we saw in the Soviet Union vs what Marx envisioned are not at all the same thing.

Edit: You are correct, and it's why communism doesn't work. It takes authoritarianism to enforce it as well as operate it. Red China is on a long fuse, subject to social changes with increasing exposure to other cultures and economic dynamics.

 

[sober_teacher]

That's for sure. It's why communism doesn't work. It takes authoritarianism to enforce it as well as operate it. Red China is on a long fuse, subject to social changes with increasing exposure to other cultures and economic dynamics.

Disagree. Marxism wouldn’t work because it relies on people being content with what they acquire through mutual cooperation, but we are competitive people and rarely content.

 

[seminole97]

Disagree. Marxism wouldn’t work because it relies on people being content with what they acquire through mutual cooperation, but we are competitive people and rarely content.

Problem is more fundamental than that. Value is subjective. The economic planner’s best guesses for what we want would never approach the level of choice and satisfaction we see reflected in the market, much less keep up.

One need only compare the East German Trabant to any of the West German models from BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, etc.

Imagine a car made for nearly 30 years without a design change. A car without a gas gauge in which you mix the fuel and oil yourself, because it’s a 26hp two stroke.
Why? Because that’s good enough, comrade. Be thankful the waiting list was only 10 years.

 

[sober_teacher]

Problem is more fundamental than that. Value is subjective. The economic planner’s best guesses for what we want would never approach the level of choice and satisfaction we see reflected in the market, much less keep up.

One need only compare the East German Trabant to any of the West German models from BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, etc.

Imagine a car made for nearly 30 years without a design change. A car without a gas gauge in which you mix the fuel and oil yourself, because it’s a 26hp two stroke.
Why? Because that’s good enough, comrade. Be thankful the waiting list was only 10 years.

Right, I‘m simplifying a great deal.

It’s the tantalizing lure of a Marxist society. Everyone works together for the benefit of all, and they all get an equal slice of the pie afterwards. It sounds great to people who have nothing, and scares the crap out of those who have everything.