Do you care about the abortion issue?

[BioHawk]

Yeah because we don’t support children in this country?
Medicaid
Free public school
Free and reduced breakfast and lunch
Before and after daycare
Food stamps
WIC

What is this "Before and after daycare" that you speak of? It's certainly not available for everyone and is not federally funded beyond a small tax deduction.

Conservatives have fought tooth and nail against every one of those things and are constantly trying to eliminate and defund those programs. Not to mention preventing things like paid family leave, actual child care services, universal health care, and early childhood education. We can also add the constant opposition to programs that are proven to lower the number of abortions every year like sex education and easy access to contraceptives.

 

[Bank of Hawk]

Personally, I don’t care one bit and it ticks me off that this issue causes such division in our country. We have so many more important issues facing us, and this seems to prevent progress on fixing real problems.

Anyone else?

I think this issue should be a private one dealt with the individuals and families who have to make that choice.

I have to imagine for women considering an abortion, they are in a no-win situation, and I will not think less of a female who has had one.

I wish pro life people would come up with solutions to help those considering abortions rather than strict condemnation.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Pro abortion is NOT pro choice. The woman made the choice when she spread her legs. Not wanting to deal with the results of that choice is not enough justification to end a human life.

The HROT rapist has logged on.

 

[haw-key]

Ha, okay. "don't mean to be judgmental, but here I go..." Yes, you do mean to be judgmental. Now, not knowing anything about me you assume I should be a better father. ? Okay, again, if it hurt your feelings that I commented bible thumpers should not force their religious beliefs on my kids (or anyone else) then the issue is yours and you should probably take that up with your god. Thats not an attack, that is a simple expression on who has historically been trying to force their beliefs over other's rights. Using the bible as the "evidence" and a reason the old white men in the position to create and pass the legislation makes them bible thumpers. So if it hurts your feelings, sorry for ya, don't be so sensitive when someone disagrees with your beliefs. You are wrong, something you may simply not be able to understand. Holding one's breathe for abstinence works almost as well as wearing magic underwear.

This isn’t a religious belief thing. And I’m not forcing it on you.

Then I can kill your sister? I mean that’s just you forcing your beliefs onto me if you oppose right? The whole world is ruled by morality and law. Sometimes they coexist other times they don’t. Killing a life will never be acceptable to me born or unborn. It shouldn’t be to you either. And the law should move in that direction.

 

[haw-key]

I think this issue should be a private one dealt with the individuals and families who have to make that choice.

I have to imagine for women considering an abortion, they are in a no-win situation, and I will not think less of a female who has had one.

I wish pro life people would come up with solutions to help those considering abortions rather than strict condemnation.

What?
Here are Some.
Contraception
Abstinence
Adoption
Parenthood

That enough for ya?

 

[haw-key]

What is this "Before and after daycare" that you speak of? It's certainly not available for everyone and is not federally funded beyond a small tax deduction.

Conservatives have fought tooth and nail against every one of those things and are constantly trying to eliminate and defund those programs. Not to mention preventing things like paid family leave, actual child care services, universal health care, and early childhood education. We can also add the constant opposition to programs that are proven to lower the number of abortions every year like sex education and easy access to contraceptives.

I’m for sex education and contraception
I’m for early childhood education
I’m for child care services but not federally paid
I’m for mandated family leave but employer paid and with significant limits
I’m not for UHC

 

[haw-key]

its none of my business. its the woman and her doctor's business.

and the woman and the doctor, of course, need to abide by the laws that concern a possible abortion

Something else abhorrent was once considered property as well.....and that was considered the property owners business too.

 

[West Duval Nole]

This has turned into a you must be pro choice or pro-life with no exceptions. And the same old arguments trotted out stating what the other side is arguing when that isn't the argument they are using at all for the most part.

So I have a hard time believing most people that identify as pro choice think abortions should be legal for just any old reason all the way up until delivery or even after a certain point.

I also don't believe many that identify as pro lifers are of the opinion no abortions ever under any circumstances.

Yet one must choose all or nothing based on the label with no compromises allowed.

 

[ft254]

Sort of agree. I'm not at all in favor of partial-birth abortions, but otherwise abortion is not way up there on my list of issues that I base my vote on.

I'm confused on this partial birth issue. So, I did some research. How common is it? It is performed to protect the mother in situations the fetus's condition is likely terminal, or if the fetus has little or no chance of survival after birth. Hydrocephalus (water on the brain) is an example, which prevents passage through the vaginal canal.

With the right wing, unwilling to educate or seek information, and like most things where the emotion is the driver rather than reason, the granular illusion of the event is adequate to form opinions.

"We don't believe that sick babies — babies with disabilities — should be pulled out by the legs and struck through the head," Right to Life's Johnson told The New Republic. "We believe they should live out their life — whether it's a few minutes or six hours."

So, endanger the mother and run the likely hood of a shortened, extremely troubled life in the event of survival is the option. Partial Birth Abortion is not a medical term. It is a political term.

 

[HawkInDC]

We choose to get married later.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf

No birth control is 100%. Given the above, are you and your sons and daughters willing to guarantee abstinence until 30?

Contraception | CDC

Birth control methods, reversible and permanent, and resources.

www.cdc.gov

There are nearly a half a million kids in foster care.

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/afcarsreport27.pdf

There are 14M single moms in the US

Number of single mothers U.S. 2019 | Statista

This statistic shows the number of families with a single mother in the U.S.

www.statista.com

.

Any morality or policy stance needs to take these realities into consideration.

 

[BioHawk]

I’m for sex education and contraception
I’m for early childhood education
I’m for child care services but not federally paid
I’m for mandated family leave but employer paid and with significant limits
I’m not for UHC

Great. The Republican party isn't.

 

[funksouljon]

This has turned into a you must be pro choice or pro-life with no exceptions. And the same old arguments trotted out stating what the other side is arguing when that isn't the argument they are using at all for the most part.

So I have a hard time believing most people that identify as pro choice think abortions should be legal for just any old reason all the way up until delivery or even after a certain point. I agree here.

I also don't believe many that identify as pro lifers are of the opinion no abortions ever under any circumstances. I disagree here, even in this thread we have seen insinuations of the "how horrible, you'd take a 3rd term child! You monster!" opinion.

Yet one must choose all or nothing based on the label with no compromises allowed.

I think the "don't do it ever" crowd is larger than one thinks.

 

[William Bonney]

 

[ericram]

I think it should remain a hot issue, maybe not the top issue, but should always be in the top five. There is a lot we still do not fully understand about the full lifecycle of abortion. By that I mean we still have a lot of work to do to quantify the indirect consequences of abortion. The NIH has reported that abortion is associated with higher rates of mental-illness. More research needs to be done here. There are indirect costs of abortion that society bares that we still do not fully understand. No woman walks out of an abortion clinic with a big smile on her face. The shame they bare and how to treat that is still an issue medicine is learning about. What about women who are pressured into an abortion from their partner and/or partner’s family? That is not fully quantified either.

Additionally, if you look at abortion as a process, it is a lagging indicator and not a leading indicator. If you really want to solve a problem, you should look at the leading indicators. Unwanted pregnancy is a result of poor family planning practices in society. More Education in optimal family planning is needed. Further, more funding and less red-tape needs to occur in state & federal adoption laws. Often, it can be easier to adopt a foreign child than it is in to get one in this country. If mother’s facing unwanted pregnancy understood that a loving, caring family is readily available they will be more likely to carry to term knowing they have the ability to make a positive impact in someone else’s life.

Lastly, as a Christian, this is where I believe the church can step up more. If every congregation in America had one family adopt or foster one child, we could end this debate overnight. Think about that. Then think about that again & again. My church does wrap-around ministry so support families who want to adopt and/or foster. More of that is needed. We can solve this problem without a single selfish asshole in Washington. The power, as always, is in the people’s hands.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207970/

You see many Christians don't care about the child just the fetus. They also don't want to adopt a brown or black baby, but they love telling women what they can and can't do.

 

[hawkbirch]

Proving she's 10x the human you'll ever be.

 

[William Bonney]

Proving she's 10x the human you'll ever be.

You need to ask yourself why this meme triggered you so.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Are you seriously unaware of multiple Christian charities that help women with unplanned pregnancies? Look up Hannah's house. One of my favorite local charities.

Also sins which harm another person such as abortion should be illegal.

What if a person doesn't believe it's a sin (or even in sin)? What if a person doesn't believe in an eternal Soul? What if a person disagrees with the timing of when a Soul is assigned to a body? Look, I don't like abortion and no one in my immediate family would ever get one. However, to stop someone from doing so is no different than mandating a religion. I'm all about finding ways to reduce them, but to make them illegal will go over just as well as prohibition.

Yes, I'm aware of Hannah's house, but you're blind if you don't recognize that many Christians are more focused on the baby being born, then providing resources for them after they are born. If every Christian adopted a child (myself included), there'd be no need for orphanages.

 

[hawkbirch]

You need to ask yourself why this meme triggered you so.

Because

Because her life's work deserves more respect than a joke about how she died. You finding it worthy of posting is not surprising in the least.

 

[William Bonney]

Because

Because her life's work deserves more respect than a joke about how she died. You finding it worthy of posting is not surprising in the least.

She deserves no respect. She spent her life championing the right to murder unborn humans and that makes her wrong. The fact that as a SC Justice she had a say in keeping it "legal" makes her evil.

 

[jasonrann]

She deserves no respect. She spent her life championing the right to murder unborn humans and that makes her wrong. The fact that as a SC Justice she had a say in keeping it "legal" makes her evil.

CSB.

 

[dirtypool]

It is core to the "individual freedom" thing we are so proud of.

Republicans jumped from the "individual freedom" ship a long time ago. Thats why I have not supported the GOP for a number of years

 

[hawkbirch]

She deserves no respect. She spent her life championing the right to murder unborn humans and that makes her wrong. The fact that as a SC Justice she had a say in keeping it "legal" makes her evil.

I dissent.

 

[dirtypool]

 

[William Bonney]

I dissent.

I figured. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

 

[hawkbirch]

I figured. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

CSB.

 

[dirtypool]

But as soon as they are born they can go f**k themselves, right?

Once out of the womb, they just need to pick themselves up by the bootstraps!

 

[ft254]

They're dead either way. That's the point. This way they don't take their mothers with them.

It's a terrible medical decision to have to make, but it is not an "abortion option".

It is a medical procedure made under a crisis situation.

 

[funksouljon]

Republicans jumped from the "individual freedom" ship a long time ago. Thats why I have not supported the GOP for a number of years

No disagreement from me. I was speaking to "we" Americans collectively, but you are correct, the GOP has moved to a "individual freedom" approach when it suits the collective hive mind.

 

[BioHawk]

Once out of the womb, they just need to pick themselves up by the bootstraps!

Damn lazy two year olds.

 

[haw-key]

Great. The Republican party isn't.

Huh. Which merely demonstrates that I’m an independent thinker and do not derive my positions from a party rather my own sense of his things should be. My opinions happen however to most consistently agree with the right. Hence my tendency to vote that way. Make sense?

What Democrat ideas do you differ on? If any.

 

[z_ape]

Yes, I care deeply about a woman’s right to choose.

It's the relationship between the fetus and an outside actor that makes this complicated.

 

[RunRonnieRun]

It's the relationship between the fetus and an outside actor that makes this complicated.

Since a fetus isn't a self-sustaining life form, I have a hard time with the notion of it having a relationship with anyone or anything.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

What if a person doesn't believe it's a sin (or even in sin)? What if a person doesn't believe in an eternal Soul? What if a person disagrees with the timing of when a Soul is assigned to a body? Look, I don't like abortion and no one in my immediate family would ever get one. However, to stop someone from doing so is no different than mandating a religion. I'm all about finding ways to reduce them, but to make them illegal will go over just as well as prohibition.

Yes, I'm aware of Hannah's house, but you're blind if you don't recognize that many Christians are more focused on the baby being born, then providing resources for them after they are born. If every Christian adopted a child (myself included), there'd be no need for orphanages.

If a person believes if it's wrong to kill a human being that should suffice.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Would have given you a like if you stopped after the second sentence. Not sure what you are getting at. I believe I am principles and pro life. If you meant pro choice, There are way too many people smarter than me who are pro choice to say it is unprincipled or wrong on other issues. I just think they are wrong on that particular issue.

I was referring to Trump lacking principles, not you. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[Tenacious E]

I was referring to Trump lacking principles, not you. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

that makes sense

 

[alaskanseminole]

If a person believes if it's wrong to kill a human being that should suffice.

So only one belief system is wrong? What about the death penalty and those who oppose it? Typically the left is against it and the right is all for it?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So only one belief system is wrong? What about the death penalty and those who oppose it? Typically the left is against it and the right is all for it?

I tend to think biology proves that a fetus is a individual human being and I posted a study not long ago which showed that the vast majority of biologists including very pro-choice biologists agree with that assessment.

I tend to be against it because it doesn't do much to protect us from crime and it's been applied unevenly. Also the fact that people have been sent to death row but later found to be innocent means we apparently can not create a system in which the DP is only applied where there is surety of guilt.

On the moral level in theory I am not opposed to killing someone who has killed someone in an especially heinous way, killed a vulnerable person (A child or someone disabled for example.), or killed multiple people. But that is mostly in theory and I have little hope that the DP would itself would ever be applied fairly and I strongly doubt it could be applied perfectly (only applied in cases where there is surety of guilt). So therefore I find it better just to rid ourselves of it.

 

[z_ape]

Since a fetus isn't a self-sustaining life form, I have a hard time with the notion of it having a relationship with anyone or anything.

Should doctors be able to amputate healthy human limbs at a patient's discretion?

 

[Tenacious E]

So only one belief system is wrong? What about the death penalty and those who oppose it? Typically the left is against it and the right is all for it?

not hoosier but I've given my take on the death penalty many times. I am for it in principle, but against it under our current system due to procedural (in)justice issues, where the innocent have been executed. I would be open to its application if a super-burden of proof would be invoked. Examples of super proof would be multiple independent video feeds of murder; multiple witnesses to the mass shooting where the shooter was captured in the act (colorado movie theater shooter); finding dead bodies in an apartment in various states of dismemberment and digestion (Dahmer); etc.

 

[Tenacious E]

Since a fetus isn't a self-sustaining life form, I have a hard time with the notion of it having a relationship with anyone or anything.

babies aren't self-sustaining either.