Because Lloya won’t let go of the taser that can take away all of his ‘control’ in an instant?
Fatal Shooting by Police in Grand Rapids
- Thread starter gohawks50
- Start date
Well...except the part about the person being arrested resisting arrest, getting his hand(s) on the taser and becoming a real life and death threat to the LEO. Other than that, you nailed it. SMH.
If I am a LEO, I am alerted right at the start when the guy gets out of the car upon stopping his vehicle and was told to stay in the car and got out and shut the door anyway. Passive-aggressive resistance, but still resistance.
Then there is a period of silence as they are out of range of the voice recorder apparently and at the 2:50 mark the arrestee begins actively resisting. He appears to continue to resist for the next 1:30 or so until they go off screen.
He was clearly verbally warned to let go of the taser, so loud that it could be heard in the neighborhood around the fracas and yet he continued to tussle with the officer. That's NOT straight up execution style murder...at all. That is a terrible tragedy, but one that was brought to bear by the incredibly foolish and dangerous choices made by the arrestee.
While sickening that someone ended up dead over this, that is a "good shoot" all day, every day.
That's fair, although it's not clear if that's a yes or a no.
Agreed. Those that physically resist and fight back will always be at more risk.
Is that what you meant?
None of this would've happened if there was another officer to help subdue.
No, what I meant was that it was a good shoot. High five! Did you notice the thug was passive aggressive? Wish the cop would have shot him then!
That's exactly where all this is headed. We're already not chasing car thief suspects who won't pull over. So, guess what car thief suspect now do when a cop attempts to pull them over?
The absolute WORST message that we send & continue to send through all this is that it's 100% ok to not comply with legal commands - because that's exactly what you're going to get more & more of. Then we wonder why we have more & more interactions that go bad? It's laughable.
I did not confer any "high fives", it is still a very grave situation. But anyone that fights the police, grabs their weapon(s), ignores legit commands to comply, etc, should expect, regardless of their race, etc, to meet deadly force.
I believe society has decided that we don’t want to keep people in jail considering how the justice system works today. Our elected officials have made the laws ****ing up the system and those elected officials keep getting re-elected. The infrastructure for “the system “ is completely inadequate for the laws in place.
Laws and sentencing do not match the morals and needs of our current society. There are too many felonies that should be misdemeanors and misdemeanors that should be felonies that clog up the system. Because of this judges and prosecutors are basically hamstrung from the get go so and this rolls down to the LEO’s also. It’s unfair to all parties involved including the citizens.
Basically it’s a cluster**** and will not change until we as a society do the hard work and make our elected officials do something about it.
Or those who are passive aggressive, us Midwesterners should be especially careful.
I would not have guessed that the punishment for those crimes is death row. Felonies sure, maybe serious misdemeanors, but then again who can complain about a good shoot!
Where are you getting that message? The message I get from all these stories is "be very careful around police or you might wind up shot"
Be very careful? How about just do what you’re fecking told??
Well sounds like we have a new volunteer to be a Cop who doesn't shoot people under any circumstances.
Thanks in advance for your outstanding service to make our communities safer. LOL!
That almost always works too, but not always.
A higher degree of caution makes much more sense to me when one of the outcomes is getting shot.
Want to be my partner? You can kill as many blacks as you want and I won't say a thing!
LOL!
I wouldn't be your partner in a Lemonade Stand, and I highly doubt you have the mental capacity to make it, let alone make change for those without the exact transaction amount. (would make for great comedy on YouTube I suppose though..........LOL!).
Says the dude wrestling with Doritos on his couch.
??? No one is celebrating a good shoot, despite your apparent attempt to shift the goal posts over to that narrative. And just being passive aggressive did not directly lead to being shot here...it was only after the guy fought back and got his hand on the taser that deadly force was used. Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that the arrestee essentially "dug his own grave"?
If you jump off a high building with no parachute, you can expect to get seriously hurt or killed when you land. If you cut your wrists with a knife, you can expect a big mess and potentially even death.
If you fight with a LEO while being arrested you can expect to be immobilized, even killed. This has nothing to do with the base crime, however benign it might be. It is dangerous, potentially life ending behavior.
One does not have to like it, be amused by it, etc, to simply be able to recognize it as such.
Are you seriously not able to discern the difference between "being very careful" around police and the VERY DIFFERENT scenario of actively, physically resisting arrest, fighting and gaining control of the LEO's weapon? Are those the same to you?
It is not difficult for me to acknowledge any of that. It's readily apparent that not following and even sometimes following police instructions can end up getting a person killed. It's a frequent occurrence in this country. It's the reality.
What I bemoan is the acceptance of that acknowledgement, that it's OK, that it's just the way we do things. I like to think we could have higher expectations for police, where they don't kill nearly as many suspects, I like to think there is an alternative where this suspect can act like a piece of shit and get arrested rather than shot in the back of the head.
I also realize we have a heavily armed populace and that police have tremendous legal protections to shoot if they feel threatened. So it's not surprising.
Thanks for the advice about jumping off a high building, truly insightful.
I seriously am able to discern the difference. They are different. They are not the same.
I get the feeling you do not read the words that I write or that you do not comprehend the words that you do read.
I don't eat Doritos and only wrestled one year in high school. If I was a police officer, then yes I would need to be trained on grappling and would make sure I trained in this consistently (probably Brazilian Jiujitsu, Judo and wrestling) while a police officer since my life and others lives could be dependent on being proficient in the skill. Most police officers, I would be willing to bet rarely keep up on this training but instead make sure they keep up with going to the firing range to keep up with their pistol skills.
You are wanting to give far to much benefit of the doubt to someone actively breaking the law. It may sound good in your head but its not real world.
Wanting and hoping police to not kill as many people does sound good in my head and I agree is not real world.
I'm surprised by your comment about too much benefit of the doubt though. I comment that we our heavily armed people and police can shoot if they feel threatened (benefit of the doubt) and you think that's too much?
- Sep 13, 2002
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Cop didn't escalate this one at all.
Totally avoidable tragedy if the suspect didn't choose to fight/run/resist.
I do think this demonstrates why it's better to have a partner, though. I feel like this situation would not have spiraled and resulted in violence if this cop had backup.
Totally avoidable tragedy if the suspect didn't choose to fight/run/resist.
I do think this demonstrates why it's better to have a partner, though. I feel like this situation would not have spiraled and resulted in violence if this cop had backup.
Yep and I think police officers should have to re-certify once or twice a year on grappling skills. Many of these videos where the tazer gets taken seems to me that police officers have lacked being proficient in grappling skills. And this is going up against guys that aren't overwhelmingly big and/or well trained in MMA or wrestling that I am aware of. The one in Atlanta, there actually was 2 police officers on the scene.
Should what?
Eat doritos, train grappling or train on pistol skills? All of the above? Or are you saying they should only train pistol skills?
I think there are people who would argue that being the first one to use a firearm is escalating. I also agree that it was totally avoidable if the suspect didn't make several bad choices one after another, but that's also not the only way this could have been avoided.
There are thousands of people each year who are arrested rather than killed after wrestling/fighting/resisting with police. This probably could have been avoided in a similar way that those were.
We probably need more time and more money to develop officers properly.
- Sep 13, 2002
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I put myself in this officer's shoes. I have a guy who first got out of the car when he shouldn't, doesn't return to it when told to. Then he starts walking away when told not to. When grabbed by shoulder and told "hey, get back here!" then runs into a yard. I suppose at this point the cop *could* have just said eff it and detained the second individual and secured the vehicle, but there is probably some responsibility to not let a suspect loose in a residential neighborhood, because one has to wonder why he's running away from a very simple traffic stop -- is he wanted? Is he carrying?
So the cop makes the choice to try and continue with his effort to detain the suspect. At this point the suspect now escalates the situation by fighting and resisting. So the cop decides to respond by deploying a non-lethal weapon, his taser. At this point, the suspect then GRABS the taser. Now the cop is in a really bad situation -- if he loses control of the taser, and he is the only officer on the scene, what would prevent the suspect from using the taser to incapacitate the cop, at which point the suspect could beat him, stomp him, keep tasing him or grab his service weapon and shoot him? At that point, I don't think the officer has much choice other than being the one to use the service weapon.
I see zero chance this shooting isn't declared 100% justifiable. That doesn't make this a non-tragedy, however.
" I like to think there is an alternative where this suspect can act like a piece of shit and get arrested rather than shot in the back of the head."
This is what I am referring to as benefit of the doubt. He wasn't just acting like a "piece of shit." He had taken a weapon from an officer.
I certainly agree that will be declared 100% justifiable. I just don't agree that it was 100% necessary.
- Sep 13, 2002
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The really sad thing is I'm not even sure the suspect WAS acting like a POS. It very well may be that a combination of poor English skills, ignorance on American policing rules (i.e. you never get out of the car in a traffic stop, you never turn your back on a cop who is issuing verbal orders, etc.) and fear may have made the suspect behave out-of-the-norm. b
Like I said, complete tragedy for all involved.
He wasn't even being arrested. Just detained after he couldn't manage to answer or comply with the first 15 simple questions & requests...
So do you now have enough information to know if the perp should have been shot in the back of the head?
Earlier today you indicated a full review was needed and wouldn't clearly answer yes or no. It seems like now that you know he wasn't just acting like a piece of shit and had taken a weapon from the officer, your answer may be more certain.
