First party to the middle wins...

Banditking

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What about any of those is "far left"?
So… I read those and I see massive spending errors (left) for social agenda (left) for climate and not including nuclear as the solution (left) with big tax increases (left). You see… center right?
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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Annoying, isn’t it?

It is. . . . Look I don't blame you for being uncomfortable in a place dominated by people who have very different political views than you.

But there is a lot of implicit intimidation on both sides that prevent people who havn't ordered every aspect of their life by politics from speaking up.

I'd no more want to discuss my feelings on abortion with leftist friends/family than I would want to discuss my feelings on Trump with my right wing friends/family.

So as a person who is "in the middle" or more accurately has political views that match and oppose both parties I just don't say much because I want to keep people in my life.

Of course that makes both sides more extreme because everyone they know and talk to either agrees with them or avoids the subject.
 

mthawkeyes

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As you know, they don’t have school loans. They may buy private healthcare insurance. Not sure. Many of the better off in European nations do given the delays and other issues in the public healthcare systems.
So maybe, given the support they have received from the state in education and healthcare, their lower earnings don't actually make them poorer? Maybe they should pull up the ladder like the Boomers did here in the U.S.

And don't act like delays are only an issue in public healthcare systems. My teenager has developed exercise-induced asthma in the past few months. It's a two-and-a-half month wait to get an appointment with a pulmonologist.
 

Nole Lou

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They are here too

Yeah, in general, every poll shows that Americans want the parties to be less extreme and more to the middle.

But as you can see on this thread...almost nobody that actually engages in politics wants to talk about how either party might get there AT ALL, nor will even acknowledge that they've drifted right/left. Merely that people got stupider when they lost, and then got smarter again somehow when they won, and then got dumber again that time they lost.

People that engage in politics for money, likes, hobby or lulz have zero interest in reducing polarization. You can't even start the conversation.
 

Banditking

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It is. . . . Look I don't blame you for being uncomfortable in a place dominated by people who have very different political views than you.

But there is a lot of implicit intimidation on both sides that prevent people who havn't ordered every aspect of their life by politics from speaking up.

I'd no more want to discuss my feelings on abortion with leftist friends/family than I would want to discuss my feelings on Trump with my right wing friends/family.

So as a person who is "in the middle" or more accurately has political views that match and oppose both parties I just don't say much because I want to keep people in my life.

Of course that makes both sides more extreme because everyone they know and talk to either agrees with them or avoids the subject.
Agee with you not to say much. But it’s important to look who is dominant where. And you have increasing progressive left cultural dominance in the power centers of our country.
 

Banditking

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So maybe, given the support they have received from the state in education and healthcare, their lower earnings don't actually make them poorer? Maybe they should pull up the ladder like the Boomers did here in the U.S.

And don't act like delays are only an issue in public healthcare systems. My teenager has developed exercise-induced asthma in the past few months. It's a two-and-a-half month wait to get an appointment with a pulmonologist.
No, they’re definitely poorer.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Yeah, in general, every poll shows that Americans want the parties to be less extreme and more to the middle.

But as you can see on this thread...almost nobody that actually engages in politics wants to talk about how either party might get there AT ALL, nor will even acknowledge that they've drifted right/left. Merely that people got stupider when they lost, and then got smarter again somehow when they won, and then got dumber again that time they lost.

People that engage in politics for money, likes, hobby or lulz have zero interest in reducing polarization. You can't even start the conversation.

The other problem that I think I have mentioned on HROT but not on this thread is the problem of what "moving to the middle" looks like.

Myself and a hardcore libertarian might both be seen as "being in the middle" but we would have polar opposite views on nearly every count of what that would look like.

So on top of the problems of getting there, the whole idea of there being a "middle" is often kind of vague.
 
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Banditking

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The other problem that I think I have mentioned on HROT but not on this thread is the problem of what "moving to the middle" looks like.

Myself and a hardcore libertarian might both be seen as "being in the middle" but we would have polar opposite views on nearly every count of what that would look like.

So on top of the problems of getting there, the whole idea of there being a "middle" is often kind of vague.
Yep. You. Can see it in this thread. Some on the left here are arguing we are a center right country with the standard being the world. Thus they’re merely trying to move us to the middle. Going to hard to find common ground with that. No one agrees on what the center is.
 

mthawkeyes

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Average salary of mechanical engineers

U.S.: $76,000
Germany: $62,000

Once you take out the needs for healthcare and repaying student loans (for most), how are they poorer?
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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Agee with you not to say much. But it’s important to look who is dominant where. And you have increasing progressive left cultural dominance in the power centers of our country.

Do we. . . Remember rural voters get an outsized impact per person on the government due to the senate, gerrymandering, and the electoral college.

Some corporations might have "gone woke" . . . likely because they figure that is what sells.
 
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TarponSpringsNole

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Unfortunately I think the only way to break it is for another legitimate third party to be created. And there isn't enough time and money for that to happen in our life times. So the people stuck in the middle have to swing the elections to one party, then the other.
I would love a third party to emerge. For the first time in my voting life I may abstain today.
 

Banditking

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Average salary of mechanical engineers

U.S.: $76,000
Germany: $62,000

Once you take out the needs for healthcare and repaying student loans (for most), how are they poorer?
Who plays at means/medians? Where did you get the data?
 

Banditking

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Do we. . . Remember rural voters get an outsized impact per person on the government due to the senate, gerrymandering, and the electoral college.

Some corporations might have "gone woke" . . . likely because they figure that is what sells.
It’s worse. It’s dictated by the feds.
 

Banditking

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glassdoor.com
Ok. But, that’s not the same thing as working at a fang type company who is collaborating internationally.

the issue here to me is, if you are a high achiever or have that kind of ability/drive, where can you do well? America is a good place for those types.
 

mthawkeyes

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Moral

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Look at this moderates just yearning for the center of the middle politics. Who cares of the percieved middle is a moving target that is marching to the right with both parties since 1992, they will find that new even more right middle that just seems so god damn cozy.
 

ThorneStockton

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The point is that voters rate both parties extreme and far from them politically, and would almost certainly tilt to the one that say, cut that distance in half.

You can claim it's almost certain, but saying it doesn't make it so. Sure, I can see the logic, but I think you missed the point that "cutting the distance in half" in reality, does not necessarily mean cutting the distance in perception of extremism.

Who knows, maybe you'll have lots of evidence that the "moderate" more center candidates have success tonight in the mere dozens of competitive races.

Do you ever recall seeing statistics/survey results that have shown that voters have a very low approval of congress, yet individual incumbents have had considerable reelection success? If so, I'm curious how you interpret that.
 

Jerome Silberman

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The other problem that I think I have mentioned on HROT but not on this thread is the problem of what "moving to the middle" looks like.

Myself and a hardcore libertarian might both be seen as "being in the middle" but we would have polar opposite views on nearly every count of what that would look like.

So on top of the problems of getting there, the whole idea of there being a "middle" is often kind of vague.
I would argue "the middle" doesn't, hasn't and will never exist, but compromise amongst law makers is still on the table if that is what the people desire. Unfortunately that is going the way of the dodo.
 
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kc78

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But I can point to plenty of Republicans who have said that. Should be all, but there are plenty.

Where are the Democrats breaking on gender theory or legal abortion through nine months?
if a woman's life is at stake, why shouldn't abortion be legal if no other options are available. The 9th month abortion is another thing Republicans like to scream about that just really isn't an issue. By far the majority of abortions take place by week before week 16. Almost every abortion afterwards, almost everyone is health related either in relation to the Mother or the child.
The Democrats' "shift to the left" on health care reform was to adopt a Republican governor's health care plan rather than single-payer like most of the rest of the developed world. The Republicans declared it socialism.
Oh I agree. They should have just done it in that regard. The half step got them labeled as socialist although it really didn't do much at all. On actual policy they're still very centrist, but their talking points are all very leftist, at least as to what is allowed to get branded. So either be a leftist party and do major changes to show us how much better it is or be a centrist party and slowly make changes. This idea of talking about a lot of left wing things and then only doing very small changes doesn't work because it gets you labeled as socialist, but it doesn't actually give us any of the benefits of your big ideas. So either be centrist or leftist, but stop trying to play both sides.
 
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Moral

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I would argue "the middle" doesn't, hasn't and will never exist, but compromise amongst law makers is still on the table if that is what the people desire. Unfortunately that is going the way of the dodo.

I have a theory that the most middle of all of the active politicians is Bernie Sanders. I base that on the popularity of his positions as it relates to polling. Say something like legalizing marijuana or removing money from politics, this both poll well into the majority of Americans regardless of party. The list goes on with Sanders in that way.

However, I believe the way the center, middle, moderate terms are actually used in practice are tools meant to make people self compromise and feel good about being a status quo identifying voter which really just works out with establishment politicians. Establishment politicians who also happen to be wildly unpopular and seem to hold unpopular and dated positions.
 

tarheelbybirth

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Sure. From White House chief of staff

“Taking to Politico, Klain said: “The president has delivered the largest economic recovery plan since Roosevelt, the largest infrastructure plan since [Dwight D] Eisenhower, the most judges confirmed since Kennedy, the second-largest healthcare bill since Johnson, and the largest climate change bill in history”
Just as I suspected - you claim ANYTHING done by the Democrats represents "far left" ideology. Kind of pathetic, really. I suppose when Trump was talking endlessly about "infrastructure week" you accused him of being far left.
 

Jerome Silberman

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I have a theory that the most middle of all of the active politicians is Bernie Sanders. I base that on the popularity of his positions as it relates to polling. Say something like legalizing marijuana or removing money from politics, this both poll well into the majority of Americans regardless of party. The list goes on with Sanders in that way.

However, I believe the way the center, middle, moderate terms are actually used in practice are tools meant to make people self compromise and feel good about being a status quo identifying voter which really just works out with establishment politicians. Establishment politicians who also happen to be wildly unpopular and seem to hold unpopular and dated positions.

I think you're absolutely correct. I think it's also used as a fairly shallow and dishonest olive branch in political conversations to make the speaker feel good about themselves and how "independent" of a thinker they are. It's often used in a, "I would totally vote for that other party if they nominated a moderate/centrist(a.k.a. someone that is necer going to gain the nomination of their party).

Tulsi Gabbard was that person in the last election and John Huntsman filled the roll way back when.
 
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Slappy Pappy

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The OP's problem is that he complains about actual laws and policies GOP candidates enact, but then blames Democratic politicians for diversity and equity policies adopted by private corporations and independent institutions. You see the problem here?
 

tarheelbybirth

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Average salary of mechanical engineers

U.S.: $76,000
Germany: $62,000

Once you take out the needs for healthcare and repaying student loans (for most), how are they poorer?
You can't drive them off their talking points with facts. Here's a fact, German engineers are not knocking down the door to move to the US and they could easily do so. The US is starved for engineers.
Ask them if they'd like to live here and most Germans will look at you like you have two heads.
 

Banditking

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Just as I suspected - you claim ANYTHING done by the Democrats represents "far left" ideology. Kind of pathetic, really. I suppose when Trump was talking endlessly about "infrastructure week" you accused him of being far left.
Yes to the latter.
 

Banditking

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Virtually all other developed nations have more social mobility than the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
Here is what they used to rank social mobility. Most of this is irrelevant to social mobility.
Health

  • Overall (how measured?)
Education

  • Education access (how measured?)
  • Education quality and equity (equity?)
  • Lifelong learning (how measured?)
Technology

  • Technology access
Work

  • Work opportunities
  • Fair wage distribution (how measured? Who determined fair?)
  • Working conditions
Resilience & Institutions

  • Social protection (how measured?)
  • Inclusive institutio (how measured?)
 
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Banditking

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The OP's problem is that he complains about actual laws and policies GOP candidates enact, but then blames Democratic politicians for diversity and equity policies adopted by private corporations and independent institutions. You see the problem here?
Dei, crt version, is increasingly demanded by feds and it is incentivized. Gov contracts to women owned businesses, urm owned businesses.
 

Banditking

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I have a theory that the most middle of all of the active politicians is Bernie Sanders. I base that on the popularity of his positions as it relates to polling. Say something like legalizing marijuana or removing money from politics, this both poll well into the majority of Americans regardless of party. The list goes on with Sanders in that way.

However, I believe the way the center, middle, moderate terms are actually used in practice are tools meant to make people self compromise and feel good about being a status quo identifying voter which really just works out with establishment politicians. Establishment politicians who also happen to be wildly unpopular and seem to hold unpopular and dated positions.
Sander is a populist. Ask people if they want to pay less taxes, have free healthcare, not have to pay student loans, get ubi, price controls on housing, increase wages for their demographic specifically, etc… you’re going to get popular support. That’s not a good definition of middle.
 

Moral

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Sander is a populist. Ask people if they want to pay less taxes, have free healthcare, not have to pay student loans, get ubi, price controls on housing, increase wages for their demographic specifically, etc… you’re going to get popular support. That’s not a good definition of middle.

Your argument is purely semantics, semantics that the establishment would be surely proud of. I was 100% expecting this exact reply. I super appreciate the totally expected reply that is a tool in the middling stockpile. You middling centrists can't define yourselves because you do it with feelings on a moving target.
 

Banditking

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Your argument is purely semantics, semantics that the establishment would be surely proud of. I was 100% expecting this exact reply. I super appreciate the totally expected reply that is a tool in the middling stockpile. You middling centrists can't define yourselves because you do it with feelings on a moving target.
Feelings? Wtf.
 

Nole Lou

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The other problem that I think I have mentioned on HROT but not on this thread is the problem of what "moving to the middle" looks like.

Myself and a hardcore libertarian might both be seen as "being in the middle" but we would have polar opposite views on nearly every count of what that would look like.

So on top of the problems of getting there, the whole idea of there being a "middle" is often kind of vague.

Sure. But that's because we let the political parties and political media (which is virtually all media) set the terms. What the "middle" looks like is this:

Gay marriage is fine and should be legal, but we shouldn't be discussing/teaching sexual preference and sexual identity with elementary school kids.

Abortion should be legal without restriction in the first trimester, legal in certain circumstances in the second trimester, and legal only in the third trimester to save the life of the mother.

America is a nation of immigrants and should welcome a substantial number of immigrants who are seeking to build a better life in America, but we should not allow millions of people to cross the border illegally.

Criminals, especially repeat and violent criminals, should be dealt with strictly by the justice system, and police should actively keep our streets safe. But police and law enforcement who abuse their power should face strong consequences, including prosecution when necessary.

Americans have the right to buy and own guns mostly unencumbered, but certain assault rifles and accessories should not be easily legal. Current gun laws should be enforced.

We need to aggressively bring down the cost of college, but we should not be forgiving student loans for masters degrees for middle and upper class people.

Schools should teach the horrors of slavery and honor the civil rights movement, and teach historical and current examples of racism. But America is not a racist country, founded on and dedicated to White Supremacy, and all white people are not inherently racist.

I mean, all those those statements would garner at least 70% approval from the general public. On the face of it, they are all relatively common sense for anyone who is not deeply engaged with politics. That's what "moving to the middle" would look like, along with massively toning down the rhetoric, outright lies and the dehumanizing of the other side.

It only SEEMS impossible because of the lines our parties have set, whether that be total fealty to legal AR-15s or unregulated abortion through 9 months.
 
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When Rand Paul or other republicans are labeled “election deniers” because they are opposed to changes in election rules “due to Covid” and they want voter id or whatever, that’s not “election denial.” That’s just another redefinition of a word to dupe morons. Same nonsense when Dems argue “voter suppression” for anything that requires any effort to vote.

dei in the dem implementation direction is a worse problem than 1/6. The latter delayed Congress for a couple of hours and looked little different than the summer protests/riots …just was less effective. The former has universities voting on whether to hire someone because they’re a white male against a to be determined urm they might find some time in the future and people feeling comfortable shouting down hallways “I need a Latina candidate for [insert job here].” Worse, we are teaching generations to treat people differently base on skin color and boobs. That can’t go wrong, right?
Good grief. Aggrieved much? No idea how you survive in an an environment you apparently hate so deeply.

I’m not a huge fan of some of the DEI initiatives when taken to the extreme as they often are. Also not a fan of some of the more left-leaning goals of the Democratic Party. That said, I’d rather deal with all that than MAGA crazies any day.

The GOP booted Liz Cheney out of the party. That’s all I need to know about where they stand today.
 

Banditking

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Sure. But that's because we let the political parties and political media (which is virtually all media) set the terms. What the "middle" looks like is this:

Gay marriage is fine and should be legal, but we shouldn't be discussing/teaching sexual preference and sexual identity with elementary school kids.

Abortion should be legal without restriction in the first trimester, legal in certain circumstances in the second trimester, and legal only in the third trimester to save the life of the mother.

America is a nation of immigrants and should welcome a substantial number of immigrants who are seeking to build a better life in America, but we should not allow millions of people to cross the border illegally.

Criminals, especially repeat and violent criminals, should be dealt with strictly by the justice system, and police should actively keep our streets safe. But police and law enforcement who abuse their power should face strong consequences, including prosecution when necessary.

Americans have the right to buy and own guns mostly unencumbered, but certain assault rifles and accessories should not be easily legal. Current gun laws should be enforced.

We need to aggressively bring down the cost of college, but we should not be forgiving student loans for masters degrees for middle and upper class people.

Schools should teach the horrors of slavery and honor the civil rights movement, and teach historical and current examples of racism. But America is not a racist country, founded on and dedicated to White Supremacy, and all white people are not inherently racist.

I mean, all those those statements would garner at least 70% approval from the general public. On the face of it, they are all relatively common sense for anyone who is not deeply engaged with politics. That's what "moving to the middle" would look like, along with massively toning down the rhetoric, outright lies and the dehumanizing of the other side.

It only SEEMS impossible because of the lines our parties have set, whether that be total fealty to legal AR-15s or unregulated abortion through 9 months.
Yep. But, you’re clearly a bigot by not acknowledging the current impacts of colonialism and current white supremacy on everyone. This is an expression of your privilege. Also, you’re a TERF. By the way, if your institution receives federal funds, make sure you report on your equity efforts immediately. How are you forwarding anti racism in your institution?
 

Banditking

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Good grief. Aggrieved much? No idea how you survive in an an environment you apparently hate so deeply.

I’m not a huge fan of some of the DEI initiatives when taken to the extreme as they often are. Also not a fan of some of the more left-leaning goals of the Democratic Party. That said, I’d rather deal with all that than MAGA crazies any day.

The GOP booted Liz Cheney out of the party. That’s all I need to know about where they stand today.
I do my work, which is interesting and basically don’t engage. Has it driven me to like democrats less? Yes. Maga crazies have almost no power compared to the prog left. You’re talking Jerry springer level for a lot of the maga crazy crowd. It’s mostly dumb poor people. I personally don’t know any maga crazies and very few people who admit to voting for trump. The latter only as a hate Biden/dnc more vote.
 
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Sure. But that's because we let the political parties and political media (which is virtually all media) set the terms. What the "middle" looks like is this:

Gay marriage is fine and should be legal, but we shouldn't be discussing/teaching sexual preference and sexual identity with elementary school kids.

Abortion should be legal without restriction in the first trimester, legal in certain circumstances in the second trimester, and legal only in the third trimester to save the life of the mother.

America is a nation of immigrants and should welcome a substantial number of immigrants who are seeking to build a better life in America, but we should not allow millions of people to cross the border illegally.

Criminals, especially repeat and violent criminals, should be dealt with strictly by the justice system, and police should actively keep our streets safe. But police and law enforcement who abuse their power should face strong consequences, including prosecution when necessary.

Americans have the right to buy and own guns mostly unencumbered, but certain assault rifles and accessories should not be easily legal. Current gun laws should be enforced.

We need to aggressively bring down the cost of college, but we should not be forgiving student loans for masters degrees for middle and upper class people.

Schools should teach the horrors of slavery and honor the civil rights movement, and teach historical and current examples of racism. But America is not a racist country, founded on and dedicated to White Supremacy, and all white people are not inherently racist.

I mean, all those those statements would garner at least 70% approval from the general public. On the face of it, they are all relatively common sense for anyone who is not deeply engaged with politics. That's what "moving to the middle" would look like, along with massively toning down the rhetoric, outright lies and the dehumanizing of the other side.

It only SEEMS impossible because of the lines our parties have set, whether that be total fealty to legal AR-15s or unregulated abortion through 9 months.
OK, let's scorecard this using the actual politicians in the actual government:

  • Gay marriage is fine and should be legal, but we shouldn't be discussing/teaching sexual preference and sexual identity with elementary school kids.

    This is the law of the land in much of America. Not sure what you mean about "discussing/teaching" sexual preferences with elementary kids --- as far as I know there isn't a school district in the country actively teaching elementary kids how to choose their sexual identity -- feel free to share a link if I'm wrong. I do not know of any current Democrat politicians that oppose legal gay marriage, but there are quite a few Republicans who do:

    https://apnews.com/article/2022-mid...ics-marriage-1a6e9be425f807d9e5e680b9bbdf58b3
  1. Ted Cruz of Texas suggested he’s a no on the bill. Cruz, who has publicly disagreed with the Supreme Court’s ruling to legalize same-sex marriage, said Wednesday that he doesn’t believe there is enough Republican support to pass legislation codifying it. “I doubt it,” he said. “If there’s a vote, we’ll see where the votes are.” Asked how he would vote, Cruz dodged, saying: “I support the Constitution and letting the democratic process operate.”
  2. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told CNN he is a no on this bill. He said, “I’ll support the Defense of Marriage Act” – which is what the House-passed bill would repeal.
  3. Josh Hawley of Missouri is a no on the legislation, according to his office.
  4. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma said he’s a no on the bill. “Any attempt by Sen. Schumer to bring up legislation codifying same-sex marriage in the Senate would clearly be an attempt to distract from the Democrats’ failed agenda. That said, my views on marriage have not changed and I would not support codifying same-sex marriage into law,” Inhofe said in a statement to CNN.

So on Point 1, Democrats are in the middle and Republicans are on the radical side.

We will do Point 2 in a new thread.
 
Point 2:

Abortion should be legal without restriction in the first trimester, legal in certain circumstances in the second trimester, and legal only in the third trimester to save the life of the mother.

This was the law of the land until the conservative Supreme Court overturned it. Now, it is current Republican legislators pushing for a national abortion ban: https://apnews.com/article/2022-mid...court-health-7ea4f8fa597c97042503d856a082ef94

And current Republican legislators who do not support third trimester abortion to save the life of the mother or in case of rape and incest:


So again, Democrats are in the "middle" position, Republicans on the fringe.

Point 3?
 
America is a nation of immigrants and should welcome a substantial number of immigrants who are seeking to build a better life in America, but we should not allow millions of people to cross the border illegally.

This is probably one where some Democrats are to the left (although I'd argue this isn't really a left/right issue) of the mainstream, as many do support a fairly lax criteria for asylum seekers and refugees. However, I believe it is a distortion and a lie to claim that a majority or even a large minority of Democrats are in favor of NO border control --- that is a lie made up for political gain.

I think this one is a wash. Both parties are farther to the fringe than the middle.
 
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