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FLOs top 10 of all-time

IRONBIRD

HR MVP
Dec 2, 2010
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https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6236561-the-top-10-ncaa-wrestlers-of-all-time

Very tough to make picks for this list! I always argue that the Wrestlers from further back in time will never get the same respect. I guess this could be said of all athletes. I always point to the most famous of this group if you will, Dan Hodge. Yes I get the number of matches thing, but he WON them all! He also pinned just about everyone and was never even taken down! Not sure how you can do it any better?

Let the debate begin!!!
 
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Streibler over Gable? I don't think so. Gable would have beat steiber 9 out of 10 matches. Lincoln not being top 10 is a joke as well. 1, 1, 2, 1 with the loss being a perfect storm by marianetti on an off night by Lincoln shouldn't knock him out of top 10. I'd also take Lincoln safely to 7-8 out of 10 vs Zain when both were at their best.
 
Lowell Lange from Cornell College gets no respect when these lists come out. Were it not for a car accident it is likely that he would have been the first 4X NCAA champion. If I remember correctly his only collegiate loss came to another 3-timer, Bill Nelson, when he went up a weight for the dual with ISTC.
 
Lange gets no love from the Waterloo crowd as well.

One could argue his career high school and college was better than Gable’s.

Not to disrespect Gable, but to help people understand how special Lange was.
 
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Streibler over Gable? I don't think so. Gable would have beat steiber 9 out of 10 matches. Lincoln not being top 10 is a joke as well. 1, 1, 2, 1 with the loss being a perfect storm by marianetti on an off night by Lincoln shouldn't knock him out of top 10. I'd also take Lincoln safely to 7-8 out of 10 vs Zain when both were at their best.

Banach was the most dominating Hawkeye at NCAAs...his only loss being to another app timer. I believe Ed had 13 pins, 1 TF type score, and a few majors of his 19/20 wins.
 
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Cael may or may not be the best, but to simply say the argument ends because he went undefeated is weak. UCF went undefeated too, but because they didn't play anybody, they didn't get in the playoffs.

I have no clue how good Cael's competition is. Flo - feel free to make the case based on something other than just an undefeated season.

Kyle Dake is #1 in my mind. What he did, and did it to was incredible.
 
Any top 10 list that does not include Lincoln or Ed Banach is not well researched. Both won 3 and finished 2nd once. If you listen to FRL today you realize that this list reflects the overall theme of Flo, young with very little historical insight.

First it was stated that no 2 timers were put on the list for the 10th spot, but DT is a two timer and he made it. Also CP said his next few to consider for the 10th spot were DT, Snyder and Askren. Not bad picks of course, but all recent guys who he has name recognition with and seen wrestle. How many times did Snyder wrestle? Ed wrestled 151 with 73 pins.

Flo does a good job on most things, and this list is pretty good and can go a multitude of ways, but the one thing Flo lacks is an historical knowledge of the sport. Sure they can throw around the big names like Gable and Hodge, but having lived and known wrestling during the 70's, 80's and 90's, helps you understand good wrestling has been going on for a long time. This list is a few big name historical guys mixed in with the popular guys of today. Wait, I think they forgot Harry Styles and Justin Timberlake.
 
Any list that has Dan Gable in 7th place for anything to do with wrestling is severely flawed, IMHO. He's the best day-in day-out wrestler in my lifetime. If it's about who you wrestled and what you did to that collective group, then that's what separates Gable for me.



But that's just my opinion, others may feel different. Just because they're wrong doesn't bother me.........;)
 
Pat Smith does not belong on this list IMHO. I believe the best guy he beat for a title was Tom Ryan and he was an average Hawk in his short time with us! Also I believe if Ryan keeps wrestling in that match he wins comfortably! That was a long time ago and my memory is a bit foggy but I feel like Ryan was leading and went into stall mode and lost the mattch!
 
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Lange is a good pick I do not know to much about the old timers except for what I have read. Buddy Arndt Never lost a scholastic match he won two NCAA titles then went to war And flew over 100 combat missions, then came back and won another NCAA title and remaining undefeated. Bill Koll Who is also on many of these lists and considered one of the best has stated numerous times that buddy was by far the best he had ever seen.
Talk about guys like Gable from back in the day that do not get respect today, remember they were only eligible for three years also. If we are only to discuss the modern era I would say the obvious choices are Carl and Dake I would put Lincoln right there at the top among others let’s remember Heil was a two timer sometimes the stars align...
 
Any list putting Gable at #7 is a joke.

Gable, Uetake, Hodge and Sanderson would all be in the top 4, imho.

Beyond that, it's apples and oranges.... hard to compare. Back in the Hodge and Uetake era, there were far fewer matches. Hodge wrestled 47 matches and Uetake 57. But both guys never lost and were dominant.

Gable was not allowed to wrestle his true fr year, but did wrestle at open tournaments. At Midlands, Gable beat Behm by 5 pts in the semis. Behm would go on to finish 2nd in ncaa that season. In the finals, Gable beat former ncaa champion and World silver medalist (Hatta), also by 5 pts. Gable finished 17-0 his true fr season. All this was done as an 18 year old.

FLO put Kemp above Gable, citing his 7-6 win at the Northern Open. Kemp deserves a top 10, no doubt, but not to be ranked above Gable. Kemp had 3 collegiate losses, to Gable's 1. When Kemp did beat Gable, Gable had been retired for over 2.5 years, was wrestling at 158#, and had a pinched nerve.

Sanderson *never* lost, except when he did. In his true fr year, Paul Jenn beat Sanderson. Sanderson didn't wrestle too many tough opponents his true fr year. If he had entered the ncaa tourney as a true fr, I suspect he would've lost an additional match or several.

FLO puts out some good stuff. This list is rather flawed though.
 
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The article did what it was intended to do and that's Flo click bait to drive traffic and cause controversy.
I never take anything Flo says or does seriously, especially when they troll boards to discuss or create subject matter.
To me they're the modern equivalent of the Inquirer..simply for entertainment articles! Still looking for the Flo article on Elvis is Alive and secretly coaching wrestling to Aliens he met at Starbucks.
 
Some of you guys need to relax a bit. All these wrestlers are great. Logan Stieber was a 4 timer with 3 career losses. If you are going by stats he belongs where he is at. I would put Gable ahead of Kemp but oh well, Kemp was a stud too. The fact that at 18 he beat Dan Gable is pretty amazing. And I don't care that it was in '75 and Gable was't at his peak. Gable was still an animal in '75! I can for sure see an argument at number 9 with Zain, Lincoln and Ed but once again were splitting hairs. Overall, it's a fun list and gets conversation going.
 
For the record, I have no issues with karl at #1, his accomplishment was amazing. If they are looking at overall record, no way Gable is not in the top 3, I am also cool with Dake in the top 3, if only for the fact that he he beat 2 tough Hawks and DT for 3 of his titles. Those would be my top 3.

There are a lot more holes out there than there used to be it seems. Weights aren't as deep as they once were, sometime you get lucky and have tough weight classes like some that Dake won or 149 when Metcalf was wrestling, but then you have Heil who had no tough competition for 3 years, or Zane, who deserves to be on this list, but had no real depth in his weight the last 3 years (yeah i get it BS was there, but he was not lighting up score boards and would not have been a top 5 guy in the Metcalf era).

Maybe it just ebbs and flows, Larry Holmes imho, was one of the top 2 or 3 Hwt boxers of all time, but most don't agree because there was few to measure him off in his prime.
 
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It is not even remotely realistic that you could put together a Top 10 list and have most agree with you. It just isn't possible. One thing they didn't even do is clarify if it was best career or best PERIOD. What they did was more best career vs. best wrestler.

Going by who was best, AT THEIR BEST, it would be really hard not to put John Smith and Burroughs at the top. By their senior years, they were on different planets. I would argue that Askren would also belong on that list. By their senior seasons, they pretty much toyed with everyone. Dake as well. Gable should be included, but the timing of his 1 loss holds a ton of weight to most people. Sort of like Metcalf winning the Hodge even though he got pinned early in the season by Caldwell. If that happened in March, no chance in hell he wins it.

Still, if I went straight off at their absolute best, this would be my list(Top 6):Modern Era(circa 1970-present) since I was not alive and video is extremely limited.

1. John Smith- After wrestling as a TF and TS, he redshirts in '86 and wins the Goodwill Games in Moscow. He then wins NCAA's at 134 as a RJr. by scores of FALL, 23-8, 22-7, 20-9 and 18-4. He would go on to win a World Gold Medal at 136.4. The following year he would win NCAA's again at 134 by scores of FALL, 21-8, FALL, FALL and 9-2. He would then go on and win Olympic Gold that same year.

2. Burroughs-An injury after his true junior season may have been the best thing for him. His last year, he was on a different planet. His weight class had true talent in guys like Andrew Howe and Tyler Caldwell and he won with relative ease. His NCAA's that year went 23-7, WDF, 23-8, 14-6 and 11-3. Of course, in simlar fashion to Smith, he would go on to win a World Gold Medal that same year.

3. Sanderson- So many stats have been thrown out there that it doesn't need to be listed here again. Simply put, no one really ever put him in danger of losing(don't use some stupid Jenn match from when he was redshirting.). Still, it took him a little longer to transition to Freestyle due to his style, but he would take a Silver at Worlds the following year and then win Gold at the Olympics the year after.

4. Dake- He wasn't a bonus point machine, but if he wanted, he could probably have beat every guy(except maybe Taylor) he wrestled his last 2 years, without giving up a single point. He was just so rock solid in all 3 positions and his will to win was unreal. He would often look dead tired with a guy about to finish on him and somehow he would come out on top. Watching him consistently beat Taylor, makes me have to put him here. Also, if not for Burroughs, he would have a decent amount of World Level Hardware by now. Hopefully, he gets 1 this year!

5. Gable- If not for Owings, he would be #1. The timing of it just can't be ignored. The most unbeatable guy DI wrestling ever had, got beat. Still, with the exception of that match, he was one of the most dominant NCAA wrestlers of all time and did go on to win an Olympic Gold Medal.

6. Askren- If Folkstyle was the Olympic Style, he would probably still be winning Gold Medals. What he did to Jake Herbert as a Jr. was unreal. His last 2 seasons were the most dominant(54 FALLS) I have ever seen!

If Nolf does what I expect him to do next season, I would add him to this list!

Also, I thought about Retherford, but he would still have that occasional match with Sorenson or Collica where you thought he could possibly lose. The above 6 guys, had years where I didn't even think losing was possible and that includes Taylor vs. Dake!

Edited to add: Snyder would probably belong on this list as well, if not for being and undersized Heavyweight.
 
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Some of you guys need to relax a bit. All these wrestlers are great. Logan Stieber was a 4 timer with 3 career losses. If you are going by stats he belongs where he is at. I would put Gable ahead of Kemp but oh well, Kemp was a stud too. The fact that at 18 he beat Dan Gable is pretty amazing. And I don't care that it was in '75 and Gable was't at his peak. Gable was still an animal in '75! I can for sure see an argument at number 9 with Zain, Lincoln and Ed but once again were splitting hairs. Overall, it's a fun list and gets conversation going.
The Streibler was outstanding, no question. That said, he was gifted one title against Oliver, one of THE worst calls ever, and more than one person thinks Ramos stuck him.

2 titles instead of 4 moves him down the list considerably.
 
It is not even remotely realistic that you could put together a Top 10 list and have most agree with you. It just isn't possible. One thing they didn't even do is clarify if it was best career or best PERIOD. What they did was more best career vs. best wrestler.

Going by who was best, AT THEIR BEST, it would be really hard not to put John Smith and Burroughs at the top. By their senior years, they were on different planets. I would argue that Askren would also belong on that list. By their senior seasons, they pretty much toyed with everyone. Dake as well. Gable should be included, but the timing of his 1 loss holds a ton of weight to most people. Sort of like Metcalf winning the Hodge even though he got pinned early in the season by Caldwell. If that happened in March, no chance in hell he wins it.

Still, if I went straight off at their absolute best, this would be my list(Top 6):Modern Era(circa 1970-present) since I was not alive and video is extremely limited.

1. John Smith- After wrestling as a TF and TS, he redshirts in '86 and wins the Goodwill Games in Moscow. He then wins NCAA's at 134 as a RJr. by scores of FALL, 23-8, 22-7, 20-9 and 18-4. He would go on to win a World Gold Medal at 136.4. The following year he would win NCAA's again at 134 by scores of FALL, 21-8, FALL, FALL and 9-2. He would then go on and win Olympic Gold that same year.

2. Burroughs-An injury after his true junior season may have been the best thing for him. His last year, he was on a different planet. His weight class had true talent in guys like Andrew Howe and Tyler Caldwell and he won with relative ease. His NCAA's that year went 23-7, WDF, 23-8, 14-6 and 11-3. Of course, in simlar fashion to Smith, he would go on to win a World Gold Medal that same year.

3. Sanderson- So many stats have been thrown out there that it doesn't need to be listed here again. Simply put, no one really ever put him in danger of losing(don't use some stupid Jenn match from when he was redshirting.). Still, it took him a little longer to transition to Freestyle due to his style, but he would take a Silver at Worlds the following year and then win Gold at the Olympics the year after.

4. Dake- He wasn't a bonus point machine, but if he wanted, he could probably have beat every guy(except maybe Taylor) he wrestled his last 2 years, without giving up a single point. He was just so rock solid in all 3 positions and his will to win was unreal. He would often look dead tired with a guy about to finish on him and somehow he would come out on top. Watching him consistently beat Taylor, makes me have to put him here. Also, if not for Burroughs, he would have a decent amount of World Level Hardware by now. Hopefully, he gets 1 this year!

5. Gable- If not for Owings, he would be #1. The timing of it just can't be ignored. The most unbeatable guy DI wrestling ever had, got beat. Still, with the exception of that match, he was one of the most dominant NCAA wrestlers of all time and did go on to win an Olympic Gold Medal.

6. Askren- If Folkstyle was the Olympic Style, he would probably still be winning Gold Medals. What he did to Jake Herbert as a Jr. was unreal. His last 2 seasons were the most dominant(54 FALLS) I have ever seen!

If Nolf does what I expect him to do next season, I would add him to this list!

Also, I thought about Retherford, but he would still have that occasional match with Sorenson or Collica where you thought he could possibly lose. The above 6 guys, had years where I didn't even think losing was possible and that includes Taylor vs. Dake!

Edited to add: Snyder would probably belong on this list as well, if not for being and undersized Heavyweight.

Nice summary and not much to disagree with.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Gable won his World gold at 22yrs old and his Olympic gold at 23yrs. Those are the same ages that Smith won his first World and Olympic gold medals.

Yes, Smith won his while in college, but the fact that Gable won his after college is due to the fact that Gable started college at age 17, and never had a RS. So, accomplishing a World or Olympic medal "while in college" is perhaps a bit overemphasized in this case, imho.

Adding to his tough road, there was little support for FS training in US when Gable was in his prime. No OTC's then. Much of his training was done on his own.
 
Going by who was best, AT THEIR BEST
Gable #5 with that criteria? Including Olympics at 23 yo like with Smith?

How many of these others had no one score on them at the Olympics? How many of them during all their matches leading up to the Olympics only surrendered one point?

Gable at his best is not merely #5.
 
I would put Gable ahead of Kemp but oh well, Kemp was a stud too. The fact that at 18 he beat Dan Gable is pretty amazing. And I don't care that it was in '75 and Gable was't at his peak. Gable was still an animal in '75!
Gable had some injury, if I remember right, and I think the biggest thing is that he wasn't used to wrestling on a mat the size of a table cloth. ;)
 
i like how someone tells everybody to relax and then goes on a big rant.
Reading comprehension is hard ;) I said some people not everyone. And I’d hardly consider that a rant. Just stating that everyone on that list is pretty dang good and an all time list is always going to be subjective.
 
The Streibler was outstanding, no question. That said, he was gifted one title against Oliver, one of THE worst calls ever, and more than one person thinks Ramos stuck him.

2 titles instead of 4 moves him down the list considerably.
Call could have gone either way but the fact is he’s still one of four people to be 4x champ. That keeps him up towards the top of most list... well out side of Iowa at least :)
 
Gable #5 with that criteria? Including Olympics at 23 yo like with Smith?

How many of these others had no one score on them at the Olympics? How many of them during all their matches leading up to the Olympics only surrendered one point?

Gable at his best is not merely #5.

Again, this is a NCAA wrestling thing and he LOST at the height of his career. I just don't see how you can glance over that. Adding in Freestyle accomplishments, I could see bumping him up over Dake, but Sanderson, Burroughs and Smith not only wrecked their NCAA competition, but did every bit as well on the World Scene(and the top 2 did much better).

If you think he belongs above any/all of the top 4 I listed above him, please give me a decent counter argument as to why. Also, please note that I said he would be my clear #1 if not for the Owings loss......

Edited to add: Remember, this is best FOLKSTYLE wrestler WHILE still attending their respective University. Gable a couple years later, would have a very compelling argument. Although, I would still put Smith #1.
 
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Again, this is a NCAA wrestling thing and he LOST at the height of his career. I just don't see how you can glance over that. Adding in Freestyle accomplishments, I could see bumping him up over Dake, but Sanderson, Burroughs and Smith not only wrecked their NCAA competition, but did every bit as well on the World Scene(and the top 2 did much better).

If you think he belongs above any/all of the top 4 I listed above him, please give me a decent counter argument as to why. Also, please note that I said he would be my clear #1 if not for the Owings loss......
You answered your own question.

But I would add he stuck 25 in a row, was a 6 time Midlands Champ and 5 time OW when we all know what that tournament was like in its heyday. Beat an Olympic Silver Medalist and an NCAA Champion back to back as a true freshman to win it.

Not many folks can put up those kinds of numbers. Owings went 87-4 and was a 3 time Finalist. He wasn't some chump. He wrestled the match of his life and beat Dan Gable, still talked about 50 years later.

Metcalf mauled Burroughs in college.
 
You answered your own question.

But I would add he stuck 25 in a row, was a 6 time Midlands Champ and 5 time OW when we all know what that tournament was like in its heyday. Beat an Olympic Silver Medalist and an NCAA Champion back to back as a true freshman to win it.

Not many folks can put up those kinds of numbers. Owings went 87-4 and was a 3 time Finalist. He wasn't some chump. He wrestled the match of his life and beat Dan Gable, still talked about 50 years later.

Metcalf mauled Burroughs in college.

Like I said, these are so hard to do that you aren't going to get everyone to agree. No matter how good Owings was the timing of Gable's loss brought down his NCAA legacy. Still, he is firmly in the top 10, and I think, top 5.

As far as Metcalf and Burroughs goes, the Burroughs(true sophomore) version Metcalf admittedly mauled was NOT EVEN CLOSE to the Redshirt Senior version.
 
It is not even remotely realistic that you could put together a Top 10 list and have most agree with you. It just isn't possible. One thing they didn't even do is clarify if it was best career or best PERIOD. What they did was more best career vs. best wrestler.

Going by who was best, AT THEIR BEST, it would be really hard not to put John Smith and Burroughs at the top. By their senior years, they were on different planets. I would argue that Askren would also belong on that list. By their senior seasons, they pretty much toyed with everyone. Dake as well. Gable should be included, but the timing of his 1 loss holds a ton of weight to most people. Sort of like Metcalf winning the Hodge even though he got pinned early in the season by Caldwell. If that happened in March, no chance in hell he wins it.

Still, if I went straight off at their absolute best, this would be my list(Top 6):Modern Era(circa 1970-present) since I was not alive and video is extremely limited.

1. John Smith- After wrestling as a TF and TS, he redshirts in '86 and wins the Goodwill Games in Moscow. He then wins NCAA's at 134 as a RJr. by scores of FALL, 23-8, 22-7, 20-9 and 18-4. He would go on to win a World Gold Medal at 136.4. The following year he would win NCAA's again at 134 by scores of FALL, 21-8, FALL, FALL and 9-2. He would then go on and win Olympic Gold that same year.

2. Burroughs-An injury after his true junior season may have been the best thing for him. His last year, he was on a different planet. His weight class had true talent in guys like Andrew Howe and Tyler Caldwell and he won with relative ease. His NCAA's that year went 23-7, WDF, 23-8, 14-6 and 11-3. Of course, in simlar fashion to Smith, he would go on to win a World Gold Medal that same year.

3. Sanderson- So many stats have been thrown out there that it doesn't need to be listed here again. Simply put, no one really ever put him in danger of losing(don't use some stupid Jenn match from when he was redshirting.). Still, it took him a little longer to transition to Freestyle due to his style, but he would take a Silver at Worlds the following year and then win Gold at the Olympics the year after.

4. Dake- He wasn't a bonus point machine, but if he wanted, he could probably have beat every guy(except maybe Taylor) he wrestled his last 2 years, without giving up a single point. He was just so rock solid in all 3 positions and his will to win was unreal. He would often look dead tired with a guy about to finish on him and somehow he would come out on top. Watching him consistently beat Taylor, makes me have to put him here. Also, if not for Burroughs, he would have a decent amount of World Level Hardware by now. Hopefully, he gets 1 this year!

5. Gable- If not for Owings, he would be #1. The timing of it just can't be ignored. The most unbeatable guy DI wrestling ever had, got beat. Still, with the exception of that match, he was one of the most dominant NCAA wrestlers of all time and did go on to win an Olympic Gold Medal.

6. Askren- If Folkstyle was the Olympic Style, he would probably still be winning Gold Medals. What he did to Jake Herbert as a Jr. was unreal. His last 2 seasons were the most dominant(54 FALLS) I have ever seen!

If Nolf does what I expect him to do next season, I would add him to this list!

Also, I thought about Retherford, but he would still have that occasional match with Sorenson or Collica where you thought he could possibly lose. The above 6 guys, had years where I didn't even think losing was possible and that includes Taylor vs. Dake!

Edited to add: Snyder would probably belong on this list as well, if not for being and undersized Heavyweight.
I'm not even sure I understand what your list is. Obviously you are focused on just their college career, which was one of the criteria they used, but from there, what is this list? The best their Sr. Year? Are we looking at their career and measuring growth? Is this base on their single best season? I am really confused and actually surprised you didn't place Robles on here somewhere.

I have been agreeing with you a lot lately, but I can't agree with this. Burroughs had 20 losses in college his career. I think he was DNP, 3, 1,1. Very good finish but not on the level of the other greatest of all time. I think you are allowing his post college career to influence your view on this one. So you're saying a guy finishing DNP,3,1,1 with 20 losses should be ranked higher than Gable who went 117-1, couldn't compete in NCAA his Fr year then went 1,1,2? AND you also place him above a guy that went 159-0 finishng 1,1,1,1?

And above JB you put John Smith? While he did have a good W/L record 152-8-2, very similar to Banachs record, he also did not place his Fr year going DNP, 2,1,1. Banach was 141-9-1 and went 1,1,2,1. His lone loss at NCAA's was to Mark Schultz, who didn't wrestle all that well his Fr year at UCLA and then went 1,1,1.

If you're looking at 1 year, then maybe you can use these guys, and Askren would certainly be in there, but comparing wrestlers from different era's in different weight classes is hard enough, limiting the criteria to something as small as "their best year", or whatever criteria you are using is even harder to quantify, actually it's almost impossible. These lists are mostly for fun and argument, but smaller sample sizes like what you have done, make it impossible to have much fun and create more argument than agreement.

You are putting too much emphasis on 1 loss in big matches against the best guys, like Gable or Banach while ignoring the amount of losses,to potentially average wrestler like the 20 for JB. And again, based on your previous posts, you need to have Robles on here.

One thing we can agree on, both of us use a lot of words to make our point, sorry HR readers.
 
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