Fran 2 foul rule

KcTo

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Like it or not but many coaches have the 2 foul rule.

And Keegan ended up with 4 fouls in the end.

If Keegan would have gotten his 3rd foul in the first half instead of early in the 2nd half, people would have been bitching that Fran should have sat him until the 2nd half.


you actually get 5 fouls, you can play with 4 fouls, lots of players do…

whats a coaching blunder is having your star player, who’s in foul trouble, responsible for playing post defense, rim protection and rebounding

for the love of god that should be obvious…
 

hooper56

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Don't you mean who was forced to let a hot Kris Murray keep playing because his brother was relegated to "personal foul pergatory"?

Kris played the most minutes of his career. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest it was way more than what the plan was at tipoff, and the only reason it worked was because Kris played out of his mind. Thankfully for Iowa, and Fran, because if he doesn't, Fran's post game presser has a whole different feel to it.............

Fran got bailed out by Kris Murray. Hopefully he's out shopping for a nice new ride for Kris as a big Thank You.
Yeah coach played the guy with the hot hand more minutes than normal, as he always does. If a player plays well the coach isn't "bailed out", but he is smart to give said player additional minutes. I guess you really don't understand the nature of coaching.
 

KcTo

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Connor played a very good game defensively last night.....got his hand on two or three passes to deflect them and allowed Iowa to get turnovers. On the flip side he hit a three and made his free throws.....this game isn't one to bash Connor for unless it's just a hate thing.

Fran actually called a good game and did some amazing coaching to get things turned around at halftime while dealing with some really poor officiating.
No and No….
he played really opportunistic defense on plays 48 inches from the floor.

but he’s playing a BIG, in the #3 or #4 hole.
that requires rebounding above the the rim, defending above the rim, he got owned on the defense boards and was totally incapable of playing rim defense. That requires playing 9-10-11 ft above the floor, not 48- 60 inches.

if you want your bigs poking the ball out of guys hands, or tying up a rebounder great, he’s your guy, let your opponent grab rebound and then try to steal it, that’s not sustainable,

what is sustainable is guys that can defend the post, defend the rim , and not get owned on the offensive boards…
let’s see 1 rebound in 20 minutes, hmm, terrible, (and that one bounced over to him , but was in his 48 inch sweet spot )

im sorry, that is just never going to CMac….

he’s really near unplayable as a big….
 
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Mohawkeye

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Never mind that Indiana went on a 20-4 run after Keegan sat.
Yeah. Give me the choice of my best player potentially fouling out or sitting half the game while the other team is making a run, I’ll chose potentially fouling out every time. When you sit him, you’re essentially imposing the foul out rule on yourself.
 
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23 so far

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Yeah. Give me the choice of my best player potentially fouling out or sitting half the game while the other team is making a run, I’ll chose potentially fouling out every time. When you sit him, you’re essentially imposing the foul out rule on yourself.
I do want to make it clear I'm not a Fran "hater". I'd rather lose 90-80 than 40-30 (Lickliter Ball), but either outcome sucks.

That said, I do not like sitting our best players for extended minutes because of 2 fouls in the first half such a high % of the time, especially when the other team is on the verge of running away and hiding. Just not a fan (if you have several All Big Ten caliber players then sure, go ahead. We rarely have that luxury and certainly don't now).

Does that mean we lose everytime it happens? Of course not, but I suspect over time it's more detrimental then helpful. People foul out, it's not some moral victory if they don't and you still lose.
 

23 so far

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No and No….
he played really opportunistic defense on plays 48 inches from the floor.

but he’s playing a BIG, in the #3 or #4 hole.
that requires rebounding above the the rim, defending above the rim, he got owned on the defense boards and was totally incapable of playing rim defense. That requires playing 9-10-11 ft above the floor, not 48- 60 inches.

if you want your bigs poking the ball out of guys hands, or tying up a rebounder great, he’s your guy, let your opponent grab rebound and then try to steal it, that’s not sustainable,

what is sustainable is guys that can defend the post, defend the rim , and not get owned on the offensive boards…
let’s see 1 rebound in 20 minutes, hmm, terrible, (and that one bounced over to him , but was in his 48 inch sweet spot )

im sorry, that is just never going to CMac….

he’s really near unplayable as a big….
Very valid points IMO. That said, Connor did contribute in a way you could actually see it in this game, so good job.
 

perryhawk

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No and No….
he played really opportunistic defense on plays 48 inches from the floor.

but he’s playing a BIG, in the #3 or #4 hole.
that requires rebounding above the the rim, defending above the rim, he got owned on the defense boards and was totally incapable of playing rim defense. That requires playing 9-10-11 ft above the floor, not 48- 60 inches.

if you want your bigs poking the ball out of guys hands, or tying up a rebounder great, he’s your guy, let your opponent grab rebound and then try to steal it, that’s not sustainable,

what is sustainable is guys that can defend the post, defend the rim , and not get owned on the offensive boards…
let’s see 1 rebound in 20 minutes, hmm, terrible, (and that one bounced over to him , but was in his 48 inch sweet spot )

im sorry, that is just never going to CMac….

he’s really near unplayable as a big….
You're working pretty hard to try and discount Connor. The fact is that he played almost all of his time at the 3......on defense in man to man he guarded the Galloway kid...and did a pretty good job of it. Otherwise, when we were in the zone, he played out of the wing...where wing players play.

Could/should he have gotten more rebounds...sure, of course...but that doesn't discount the rest of his game and his contributions. He played well, he was a leader on the floor, he made a number of good defensive plays, and he was very efficient offensively.

It appears your assessment of his play is clouded by your dislike for him. Not every player is going to be Kris/Keegan/TJD.......we don't depend on Connor to be our leading scorer, or rebounder, or post defender. What we count on him to do is bring smarts, experience, toughness, and leadership to the floor. He does that very well.

In last nights game Keegan was in foul trouble most of the game, Patrick wasn't on his game, post players were in foul trouble, JBO wasn't shooting well, refs were making terrible calls, etc etc......Connor gave us just what we needed to get this win.
 

sober_teacher

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Yeah, and he sat when the refs were on an Iowa foul binge. Iowa can’t afford to not have Keegan in the last 5 min.

I will concede that the last 5 minutes of a game have a slightly higher value than the other minutes. But a basket is still a basket, whether it is in minute 11, 18, or 39.
What gets me is how lazy it is. Sit through minute 20 regardless of whats happening on the court, but at minute 21, youre good to go again!
The goal is to have your best players on the court as much as possible. This can be hindered by A. Fouling out or B. Sitting your guys to avoid the possibility of fouling out. Fran is so afraid of A happening that he is achieving the same negative outcome by employing B.
If you keep a guy playing and he fouls out, well hey, at least you know you maximized their on court time. You sit them half the game and they finish with 4 fouls, that's lost minutes.
I would like Fran to be more flexible with the 2 foul rule as well, but in a game like that I can’t really fault him. It really felt like Iowa got called for breathing on an Indiana player at times. Thankfully Kris in particular made it possible for Fran to sit Keegan that long, because he at least kept Iowa in the game. Quite honestly I’m amazed we didn’t have anyone foul out. Fran deserves credit for managing the bench well.
Sure. The fact of the matter is Kris Murray played out of his mind, and saved Fran's ass.

If everyday Kris Murray shows up last night they go home with an L, and Keegan gets to play the last 5 minutes to pad his stats.
So why does Fran not get credit for playing the guy who played well?

everyday Kris has been averaging 10+ points per game this year. Hardly a poor player.
 

chuck285

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2 small forwards guarding 2 C-PF, with no defensive support from the other ‘forward’ including CMac

this is exactly what I refer to when I constantly say the small lineup over exposes Keegan to fouls, and directly to a reduction in his production.

use Rebraca and Ogundele for the dirty defensive work, Conner as a big is worthless defensively,

this coaching blunder nearly cost IOWA a game vs a 2nd tier team at home…
Just wondering are you a HS or College coach or just like the rest of us a Sunday morning coach? Fran is making millions doing this for a living and must not be bad to get this far. Not always right but come the next day most coaches are questioned no matter win or lose. Hell, I get that about every day at home over nothing...
 
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joelbc1

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you can’t always get what you want!
Just stupid leaving keegan on the bench the rest of first half with the team struggling.

Not to mention hot head idiot getting a technical foul
Years ago, when Fran was initially hired at Iowa, I remember reading an article in The Register written for them but a journalist who had covered Fran at Sienna. The writer made Iowa fans two promises regarding Fran’s basketball teams.....1) they will score a lot of points, and 2) when a player gets his second foul in the first half, he will sit the balance of the half on the bench. That article was written several years ago.
Fran has pretty much delivered as promised. Go worry about something else because I promise you, this will pretty much be the rule s long as Fran is coach. Don’t expect jaguars to change their spots.
 

KcTo

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Just wondering are you a HS or College coach or just like the rest of us a Sunday morning coach? Fran is making millions doing this for a living and must not be bad to get this far. Not always right but come the next day most coaches are questioned no matter win or lose. Hell, I get that about every day at home over nothing...
What the hell does my status as a coach have to do with anything?
Fran making millions has what to do with his decisions? If you get paid more it means you are above criticism?

how about in 32 yrs Fran has never got to the second round of NCAA or the B1G semi Finals?
but Because he’s making millions…that’s all acceptable?
 

Ronman

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Is it a blanket philosophy though? Because he played Rebraca and Ogundele in the first half when they had 2 fouls each.
This is true, but I think it's because those two are essentially replaceable. You don't want to lose Keegan with three fouls in the first half. It usually is a hard and fast rule with McCaffery as it is with a good segment of college coaches who use the same strategy.
 
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KcTo

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You're working pretty hard to try and discount Connor. The fact is that he played almost all of his time at the 3......on defense in man to man he guarded the Galloway kid...and did a pretty good job of it. Otherwise, when we were in the zone, he played out of the wing...where wing players play.

Could/should he have gotten more rebounds...sure, of course...but that doesn't discount the rest of his game and his contributions. He played well, he was a leader on the floor, he made a number of good defensive plays, and he was very efficient offensively.

It appears your assessment of his play is clouded by your dislike for him. Not every player is going to be Kris/Keegan/TJD.......we don't depend on Connor to be our leading scorer, or rebounder, or post defender. What we count on him to do is bring smarts, experience, toughness, and leadership to the floor. He does that very well.

In last nights game Keegan was in foul trouble most of the game, Patrick wasn't on his game, post players were in foul trouble, JBO wasn't shooting well, refs were making terrible calls, etc etc......Connor gave us just what we needed to get this win.
WRONG

most post players were def NOT in foul trouble
Ogundele and Mulvey NOT in foul trouble.

IOWA gets crushed on the boards, crushed on FG defense, and Connor contributes to those fatal flaws…
1 rebound in 20 mins (and that bounced over to where he was standing)

if you want him to be a floor leader make him PG, but granted, he got away with some steals and tie ups after they had grabbed the rebound (unopposed by Conner) and he surprised them , good for him, but don’t confuse an opportunistic play or 2 from incompetence as a #3….
 

KcTo

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This is true, but I think it's because those two are essentially replaceable. You don't want to lose Keegan with three fouls in the first half. It usually is a hard and fast rule with McCaffery as it is with a good segment of college coaches who use the same strategy.
Great point. Ogundele , Rebraca, Mulvey are basically 15 fouls in the post, there is one reason to ’save them’ when w of the avg < 5 minutes / game

another coaching blunder
 

fivecardstud14

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What the hell does my status as a coach have to do with anything?
Fran making millions has what to do with his decisions? If you get paid more it means you are above criticism?

how about in 32 yrs Fran has never got to the second round of NCAA or the B1G semi Finals?
but Because he’s making millions…that’s all acceptable?
I'm no Fran apologist, but what's up with multiple people on here saying Fran has never got to the 2nd round? These people didn't watch Iowa beat Davidson, Temple, Cincinnati or Grand Canyon? How are we supposed to take you seriously?
 

KcTo

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I'm no Fran apologist, but what's up with multiple people on here saying Fran has never got to the 2nd round? These people didn't watch Iowa beat Davidson, Temple, Cincinnati or Grand Canyon? How are we supposed to take you seriously?
I see your point, Second round to mean 2nd weekend, apologies for the confusion.
 

sober_teacher

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I'm no Fran apologist, but what's up with multiple people on here saying Fran has never got to the 2nd round? These people didn't watch Iowa beat Davidson, Temple, Cincinnati or Grand Canyon? How are we supposed to take you seriously?
We also got over the hump and got to big10 semis last year. We arguably should have gotten there a time or two earlier but for questionable officiating on a couple of occasions.
 
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perryhawk

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WRONG

most post players were def NOT in foul trouble
Ogundele and Mulvey NOT in foul trouble.

IOWA gets crushed on the boards, crushed on FG defense, and Connor contributes to those fatal flaws…
1 rebound in 20 mins (and that bounced over to where he was standing)

if you want him to be a floor leader make him PG, but granted, he got away with some steals and tie ups after they had grabbed the rebound (unopposed by Conner) and he surprised them , good for him, but don’t confuse an opportunistic play or 2 from incompetence as a #3….

We out rebounded Indiana (a pretty good rebounding team) 36-31…..Both Rebraca and Josh O had multiple fouls in limited minutes. Rebraca reportedly came back in the game with 2 fouls in the FIRST HALF…..because the post players were in foul trouble.

As I said, Connor can/should do more on the boards, but to keep harping on that weakness shows that there’s not much substance to the position you’ve taken.
 

SDHawkDoc

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I don't think Connor has warranted the minutes that he's gotten this season, not even close. He should be in the single digits minutes PT for most games.

But he was a positive difference maker against indy. And that's despite the idiocy that he still displays in his approach to the refs. Got to be fair and acknowledge when he helps as much as when he hurts them.
 

iahawks10

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I'm no Fran apologist, but what's up with multiple people on here saying Fran has never got to the 2nd round? These people didn't watch Iowa beat Davidson, Temple, Cincinnati or Grand Canyon? How are we supposed to take you seriously?

Fran also has not been a head coach for 32 years. This is his 26th season of head coaching. 14 of the years of his head coaching was done at the low major level, one bid league, with five NCAA appearances.
 

kceasthawk

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I guess you enjoy getting reamed in the rear at home. Most Iowa fans, and certainly our coach, do not. I don't know who that curly haired idiot was that was reffing the game, but he was clearly only watching the events at one end of the court. I totally understood the T.
Not to mention the zebras have a quick whistle on Fran, ( one which he's is partly to blame for), that is not employed against Izzo or Howard, or most of the other league coaches. Still its not like he can just sit by and take it forever either.
 

kceasthawk

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Aren't they the same player? Zero scoring and zero rebounding?
To be fair Rebraca is averaging 6 points and 6 boards, (which makes him Iowa's 2nd leading board man) per 20 minutes played. Thats not that bad on the boards per 20 minutes. The issue of course is he's not a 5 at this level, and he's outmatched in nearly every conference game either by sheer physical size or athleticism depending on the matchup. I appreciate his continued effort.......
 
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MikeyHawk

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Yeah coach played the guy with the hot hand more minutes than normal, as he always does. If a player plays well the coach isn't "bailed out", but he is smart to give said player additional minutes. I guess you really don't understand the nature of coaching.
Just glad you are on this board to tell us all how coaching/basketball works. A blessing really

Sitting a player for 10 minutes due to fouls and then player not fouling out is effectively fouling the player out. Having a player at the end of the game is a good argument for sitting a player with 2 fouls in the first half
Keegan just needs to make sure he doesn't commit unnecessary fouls early in the game
 

jonesy5960

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To be fair Rebraca is averaging 6 points and 6 boards, (which makes him Iowa's 2nd leading board man) per 20 minutes played. Thats not that bad on the boards per 20 minutes. The issue of course is he's not a 5 at this level, and he's outmatched in nearly every conference game either by sheer physical size or athleticism depending on the matchup. I appreciate his continued effort.......
Rebraca is not elite at anything but he is rebounding at the same rate as Kris which is best on the team. I wish people would actually look at the numbers before commenting. Filip certainly has issues, particularly in how he's being utilized at the 5, but to state that he doesn't contribute or rebound when he leads the team in that category is just dumb.
 
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jonesy5960

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I'm no Fran apologist, but what's up with multiple people on here saying Fran has never got to the 2nd round? These people didn't watch Iowa beat Davidson, Temple, Cincinnati or Grand Canyon? How are we supposed to take you seriously?
I think that it's semantics and bad wording. Fran hasn't made it past the second round or Fran hasn't won a game in the second round is what people meant.
 
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KcTo

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Yeah. Give me the choice of my best player potentially fouling out or sitting half the game while the other team is making a run, I’ll chose potentially fouling out every time. When you sit him, you’re essentially imposing the foul out rule on yourself
from a pure math stand point, you MUST optimize Keegan and Kris production to win vs top tier teams or make a run to the 2nd weeks (or even semis in BIG)

its a coaching blunder to make the 2 most valuable players play defense every minute of every game , without a post defender. To Rebracas credit, he’s filling that role as well as can be expected, but really only at the same level that Ogundele and Mulvey do. These 3 are near interchangeable on defense , (rebraca much better offensively )

playing these 3 for 40 minutes is essential to take the defensive pressure OFF the Murray’s, exposure to fouls OFF the twins.

this will also help the teams rebounding, rim protection, defensive FG%, all Of these

connor rebounding % in Conf Games is only 30% of these 3 players, he CAN NOT rebound like these 3 bigs, he can not, these are just stark facts, in 40 minutes of play , any of these 3,mor a combination of these 3 will get 11 boards and CMac will get 3…

question. how many of those 8 rebounds turn into offensive 2nd chance points? or lost opportunity for our own 2nd half chance Points?

8-10 points a game could be lost just in the one coaching blunder….
 

Chicagoherky71

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Here goes Idiot stubborn Fran with his 2 fu$ck$g foul rule again. Lets just save their fouls so we can try and come back from a 17 point lead again. Just pathetic. Fran and his nepotism and stupid substitution patterns needs to go. He’s never gonna get us a BIG championship or Sweet 16. Over him! Take Pmac and Cmac with you!
 

iahawkeyes17

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The inflexibility, particularly on a night like tonight, is infuriating. Your lottery pick needs to play even with 2 fouls.
Worst part is he's going to finish the game with only 3 fouls. Your team leader who is a smart player you have to trust him when you are playing the #6 team in the nation. If this was Saturday's game against PSU ok I can understand that. This cost us last year at IU when Fran sat Garza and we lost a double digit lead and went to half tied.
 

joelbc1

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you can’t always get what you want!
Jeeeebus keeeerist, some folks (iahawkeyes, Wade, IAFB) oughtta worry about shit that matters. Do you really think your objection to Fran’s “rule” is ever going to make a difference. Obviously, somewhere along the way, Fran learned a “life lesson” in this regards and he ain’t changing.
Purdue is way more talented and a much better ball club than Iowa ever will be this year. Move on Boyz, move on!
 

ChiPackHawk

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To everyone bitching about Fran's "2 foul" rule - every single one of you would be bitching if he picked up his 3rd foul in the 1st half and bitching even more when said player plays soft with 4 fouls. He's not the only coach that does this and unlike video games, you can't just hit re-set and start the game over.
 
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BVHawkeye

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I'd rather have him at the end of the game. No problem with keeping him from getting three fouls.
 

jonesy5960

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Here we go again.

If Keegan drew his 3rd foul in the first half you might as well hand the game to IN. Iowa needs him in the 2nd half, hopefully when the officials try to even up the calls.
First of all it was Purdue they were playing. They're the other school from Indiana. Iowa needed him for as many minutes as they could have him. Doesn’t matter when they came. It all counts the same. He played 29 minutes. The only reason he didn't play more minutes was because Fran pulled him for half the first half as Purdue was building a huge lead. He ended up with 3 fouls. Fouls didn't limit Keegan's minutes. Fran did. Anybody saying that he would have played fewer minutes had Fran not pulled him out of the game is clueless.
 

DewHawk

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Typically, Iowa defense is bad in the first half and is better in the second half. Do you suppose the 2 foul benching has any impact?
 
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WadeLookingbill

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Typically, Iowa defense is bad in the first half and is better in the second half. Do you suppose the 2 foul benching has any impact?
Right, and it does it two ways, 1) just from a personnel standpoint the Hawks lose starters regularly to the 2 foul rule, and 2) guys can get gun shy on defense (whether intentional or not) in the first half because they don't want to ride the pine, so the defense is less effective/aggressive.

Everything about that game last night required Fran to trust Keagan to play the last five minutes of the first half. Needed to be down 8 rather than 15.