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FRL 346 - Nomad continuing to criticize Desanto for "head bouncing" Lizak.

@Is_there_vodka_in_heaven watch from 20 seconds in to about 30 seconds in this video.



cost the kid on bottom about 40% of the season with a concussion. That is why people get upset about stuff like this. Not ADS in particular, but with what getting away with stuff seems to lead to.
 
@Is_there_vodka_in_heaven watch from 20 seconds in to about 30 seconds in this video.



cost the kid on bottom about 40% of the season with a concussion. That is why people get upset about stuff like this. Not ADS in particular, but with what getting away with stuff seems to lead to.

Those are elbows to the back of the head. Those are strikes. That isn't legal in wrestling.

Face mushing someone as you release them or from the top position is absolutely legal. Hard snapping someone's head into the mat is legal.

An elbow to the back of the head is not legal. In fact that move would have been illegal in MMA as strikes to the back of the head are illegal in MMA.

The ref in the match that you linked should have his certification revoked. He didn't flinch when the top wrestler struck him with 2-3 elbows in the back of the head.
 
I got in the habit (if in ride out situation) to hold the guy’s head down because I got popped in the nose and bloodied in the last seconds because a guy decided he wanted to wrestle.

Yep - I got my nose broken by the back of a head. Heads are hard!
 
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Those are elbows to the back of the head. Those are strikes. That isn't legal in wrestling.

Face mushing someone as you release them or from the top position is absolutely legal. Hard snapping someone's head into the mat is legal.

An elbow to the back of the head is not legal. In fact that move would have been illegal in MMA as strikes to the back of the head are illegal in MMA.

The ref in the match that you linked should have his certification revoked. He didn't flinch when the top wrestler struck him with 2-3 elbows in the back of the head.
I agree with everything you said there. My contention, from watching the top kid wrestle for 9 years, is that it started with the "harmless" face mush and proceeds to this point as people start to get away with things. Stop the face mush early by penalizing it, and it would not get to this point.

This match was a 9th grader (average) wrestling up a weight against a 3 time state placer. You can tell nothing happened prior to piss the kid off, and they have never wrestled before. Just as he got away from the "face mush" and has progressed to cheap shots. Maybe too much TV.

The bottom wrestler is mine. I had discussion with the opposing coach, the official, and the director of officials for the state of Oklahoma. Very clam discussions, actually. But at this point, the rules dont allow retroactive penalty.
 
I agree with everything you said there. My contention, from watching the top kid wrestle for 9 years, is that it started with the "harmless" face mush and proceeds to this point as people start to get away with things. Stop the face mush early by penalizing it, and it would not get to this point.

This match was a 9th grader (average) wrestling up a weight against a 3 time state placer. You can tell nothing happened prior to piss the kid off, and they have never wrestled before. Just as he got away from the "face mush" and has progressed to cheap shots. Maybe too much TV.

The bottom wrestler is mine. I had discussion with the opposing coach, the official, and the director of officials for the state of Oklahoma. Very clam discussions, actually. But at this point, the rules dont allow retroactive penalty.

A contact sport like wrestling is going to have grey areas and athletes will definitely push the limits. Many construe what college guys do with a bow and arrow ride to be pushing the limits.

Making face mushing illegal isn't a rabbit hole I'd want to go down. Then you allow the ref to decide what's an unsportsmanlike face mush vs what's a legitimate wrestling move/technique. This would be highly subjective.

There are already rules in place for unnecessary roughness and an automatic penalty point.

The elbow strike that occurred in the match you linked should have been an automatic point deduction and possibly even disqualification for using his elbow to strike the opponents head.
 
The bottom wrestler is mine. I had discussion with the opposing coach, the official, and the director of officials for the state of Oklahoma. Very clam discussions, actually. But at this point, the rules dont allow retroactive penalty.

It doesn't matter than there is no retro-active penalty. The official that day should have been contacted and told in no uncertain terms that those elbows were illegal - as with a cross face you can not "wind up" and strike a kid with your forearm. And the wrestler and his coaches should have been told that what he did was unacceptable.

But I don't see any connection between striking a kid on the back of the head/neck and pushing his face into the mat. Frankly, even the forearm move is perfectly legal if you don't wind up first, but rather just for his head down.
 
While I found DeSanto’s “head-bounce” of a Gopher to be adequately satisfying, my personal favorite will always be Metcalf’s to Schlatter in the 2008 Big Ten Championship. Brands pointing down added to the moment as well. Link below:

Everybody loves a little victory elbow
 
It doesn't matter than there is no retro-active penalty. The official that day should have been contacted and told in no uncertain terms that those elbows were illegal - as with a cross face you can not "wind up" and strike a kid with your forearm. And the wrestler and his coaches should have been told that what he did was unacceptable.

But I don't see any connection between striking a kid on the back of the head/neck and pushing his face into the mat. Frankly, even the forearm move is perfectly legal if you don't wind up first, but rather just for his head down.
dang, @artradley you are good with the video stuff. You need to teach me.

No, not directly comparing those two. What I am saying is that the kid started with the face mush, the little pushes after the whistle, and built up to what you just saw, slowly, over the course of several years. If stopped at the face mush, maybe that avoids the escalation. And yes, it is really pretty easy to tell a face mush from a move, @Is_there_vodka_in_heaven . ;) My coaches would have kicked my @ss if I would have done what many do now (and ADS did in that video), and then my dad would have made it worse.

I talked to the official-very calmly explained the illegality, and the penalties that could/should have been applied (I didn't know extent of injury at that point, although I suspected) and the opposing coach (who is new to that school) apologized to me after the match. I stayed away from the kid, as I like to stay out of jail. I think the coach will explain it to him also. The video will be sent to wrestling officials from the state as a teaching tool, so at least some good may come from it. I don't think my 14 yo takes that long of a view, though :(
 
I think it was pretty clear Lizak was conceding as the clock was ticking down. I don’t get the “he(Lizak) was trying to score” narrative.

That's completely irrelevant. There was still time on the clock. Desanto can wrestle as intense as he wants within the rules when there is time on the clock. Not to mention they may meet again and he probably wanted to send a message for next time.
Might as well get used to it....Desanto has a target on his back and opposing fans are going to go after him the rest of his career.... I mean we have trolls bringing back posts from past tournaments trying to stir things up.... he’s just going to have to embrace the hate for motivation and hopefully come to grips with the post match emotions..... I can’t say enough about how much I’d love to see this kid succeed and put them in their place
 
Might as well get used to it....Desanto has a target on his back and opposing fans are going to go after him the rest of his career.... I mean we have trolls bringing back posts from past tournaments trying to stir things up.... he’s just going to have to embrace the hate for motivation and hopefully come to grips with the post match emotions..... I can’t say enough about how much I’d love to see this kid succeed and put them in their place

What is "their place"?

The reaction to DeSanto is a product of his actions during and after matches.

He had support across many fan bases until last spring, when he began a pattern of behavior that most fans (even Hawkeye fans pre-transfer) deem unacceptable and worthy of criticism.

I agree he has a target on his back now. And it's there because of his own actions.
 
Might as well get used to it....Desanto has a target on his back and opposing fans are going to go after him the rest of his career.... I mean we have trolls bringing back posts from past tournaments trying to stir things up.... he’s just going to have to embrace the hate for motivation and hopefully come to grips with the post match emotions..... I can’t say enough about how much I’d love to see this kid succeed and put them in their place

What is "their place"?

The reaction to DeSanto is a product of his actions during and after matches.

He had support across many fan bases until last spring, when he began a pattern of behavior that most fans (even Hawkeye fans pre-transfer) deem unacceptable and worthy of criticism.

I agree he has a target on his back now. And it's there because of his own actions.
Their place is him having continued success and overcoming his obstacles despite their hate
 
Might as well get used to it....Desanto has a target on his back and opposing fans are going to go after him the rest of his career.... I mean we have trolls bringing back posts from past tournaments trying to stir things up.... he’s just going to have to embrace the hate for motivation and hopefully come to grips with the post match emotions..... I can’t say enough about how much I’d love to see this kid succeed and put them in their place

When you say people bring up past posts, it’s to show that some of y’all changed your tune like whoa went Austin changed singlets. That’s trolling now?

Austin has flirted with the line a lot and crossed it at least once. Not sure how many more times before we just accept “this is who he is”
 
Might as well get used to it....Desanto has a target on his back and opposing fans are going to go after him the rest of his career.... I mean we have trolls bringing back posts from past tournaments trying to stir things up.... he’s just going to have to embrace the hate for motivation and hopefully come to grips with the post match emotions..... I can’t say enough about how much I’d love to see this kid succeed and put them in their place

When you say people bring up past posts, it’s to show that some of y’all changed your tune like whoa went Austin changed singlets. That’s trolling now?

Austin has flirted with the line a lot and crossed it at least once. Not sure how many more times before we just accept “this is who he is”
Ive accepted it.... what possible good comes from digging up old posts and trying to rub things in posters faces.... especially when it’s regarding Austin..... the only motive I see is to try and nail someone with a what about ism or simply attempting to make someone look hypocritical.... wtf purpose does that serve other than more shit to argue about.... and yes of course we as fans view his crazy ass different now that he’s our crazy ass.... and for the record I didn’t have any posts in the dug up thread so its not about me saving face
 
When you say people bring up past posts, it’s to show that some of y’all changed your tune like whoa went Austin changed singlets. That’s trolling now?

Austin has flirted with the line a lot and crossed it at least once. Not sure how many more times before we just accept “this is who he is”

Nothing Desanto has done this year comes close to the Micic match last year.

No one on this board has condoned Desanto's actions vs Micic at NCAAs.

It's very evident that he's surrounded by a good supporting cast at Iowa and that he's also acknowledged his actions (which at this point are just disrespectful, but not intending injury). He is working to improve. You've hijacked the thread now, bc this wasn't supposed to be another post about Desanto's antics. It was a post correcting Nomad for having repeated the same factually incorrect statement 2 weeks in a row.
 
I was responding to the person intimating “people bringing up past posts are trolling”.


Sour grapes? I guess anytime a hawk fan complains, if there ever was a Hawkeye who lost to the guy, then they are just bitter right? Smh.
 
I was responding to the person intimating “people bringing up past posts are trolling”.


Sour grapes? I guess anytime a hawk fan complains, if there ever was a Hawkeye who lost to the guy, then they are just bitter right? Smh.
Look if it means that much to you I’ll just go ahead and say “you got me” does that give you the kind of vindication you seek? Can we stick to talking about Iowa wrestling on the Iowa wrestling board now instead of what someones opinion was a year ago that has nothing to do with this season and team
 
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When you say people bring up past posts, it’s to show that some of y’all changed your tune like whoa went Austin changed singlets. That’s trolling now?

Austin has flirted with the line a lot and crossed it at least once. Not sure how many more times before we just accept “this is who he is”
It's a Hawkeye board. You know where the door is if you don't like opinions about Iowa wrestlers on here.
 
Well, it’s pretty undeniable that resurrecting old posts was trolling.

Agree to disagree. If someone calls you* out for something you* said in the past, it ain’t trolling.

*you meaning the abstract second person and not you in particular.
 
When you say people bring up past posts, it’s to show that some of y’all changed your tune like whoa went Austin changed singlets. That’s trolling now?

Austin has flirted with the line a lot and crossed it at least once. Not sure how many more times before we just accept “this is who he is”

You mean you can’t say, “he should have been bounced from the (NCAA) tourney” but support him as a Hawk while hoping he improves and doesn’t pull that kind of B.S. again? Because I stand by both. BTW, the Hawks weren’t the only team after him (ahem).

You repeatedly want to die on this hill because your boy got beat by AD and that was the last thing you expected. Now you are playing sniper from Jersey...about a guy that is a little bit rough and talks too much shit? You sure you are from Jersey?
 
You mean you can’t say, “he should have been bounced from the (NCAA) tourney” but support him as a Hawk while hoping he improves and doesn’t pull that kind of B.S. again? Because I stand by both. BTW, the Hawks weren’t the only team after him (ahem).

You repeatedly want to die on this hill because your boy got beat by AD and that was the last thing you expected. Now you are playing sniper from Jersey...about a guy that is a little bit rough and talks too much shit? You sure you are from Jersey?

What hill am I dying on? That ADs behavior isn’t good. Geez.

I am not playing sniper from jersey. I didn’t say kick him off the team. Or he is a bad person. I questioned if the message is getting through. And if it isn’t, then bigger steps need to be taken.

Nick lost. how a bunch of kids perform in a sport wouldn’t make me bitter or angry or having sour grapes. Didn’t say Austin didn’t earn his win. He did.
 
dang, @artradley you are good with the video stuff. You need to teach me.

No, not directly comparing those two. What I am saying is that the kid started with the face mush, the little pushes after the whistle, and built up to what you just saw, slowly, over the course of several years. If stopped at the face mush, maybe that avoids the escalation. And yes, it is really pretty easy to tell a face mush from a move, @Is_there_vodka_in_heaven . ;) My coaches would have kicked my @ss if I would have done what many do now (and ADS did in that video), and then my dad would have made it worse.

I talked to the official-very calmly explained the illegality, and the penalties that could/should have been applied (I didn't know extent of injury at that point, although I suspected) and the opposing coach (who is new to that school) apologized to me after the match. I stayed away from the kid, as I like to stay out of jail. I think the coach will explain it to him also. The video will be sent to wrestling officials from the state as a teaching tool, so at least some good may come from it. I don't think my 14 yo takes that long of a view, though :(
I salute you sir. I don't know if I could have remained calm after watching that. Maybe a question like, how would you like to see me elbow your dad in the head like that, would jar some sense into him. Sometimes bullies need to face some fear.
 
@Is_there_vodka_in_heaven watch from 20 seconds in to about 30 seconds in this video.



cost the kid on bottom about 40% of the season with a concussion. That is why people get upset about stuff like this. Not ADS in particular, but with what getting away with stuff seems to lead to.

I personally don’t think the first left forearm was too bad. The second probably was a little rough and should’ve at least drawn a verbal warning but I think a lot of refs let that one go too. The right forearm was bad and definitely should’ve been called though.

I don’t really get the point of this thread though. I agree that the DeSanto face mush wasn’t bad at all. But he did like 4 other things that were worse after that match. Or is the argument that while he’s done some dumb/unsportsmanlike stuff this year at least he hasn’t tried to intentionally injure anyone? That is definitely an improvement, but I guess it’s a low bar.
 
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I don’t really get the point of this thread though. I agree that the DeSanto face mush wasn’t bad at all. But he did like 4 other things that were worse after that match.

You fail at reading comprehension or what? This thread is regarding Nomad's repeated accusations on FRL regarding Desanto "bouncing Lizak's head off the mat". I already said I ignored it after the first week, but he's repeated it in back to back weeks and he said it with intense criticism and emotion.

Here's what I said in the OP, maybe this will help clear it up if you didn't read it the first time: "I don't want to harp on Desanto's post match actions as it's already been discussed, but Nomad keeps bringing up this point and it's just factually wrong. If you want to criticize Desanto's post match antics, you won't find many people who are going to find all of it kosher, but the "bouncing the head off the mat" never happened."

No one is justifying Desanto's actions. Just pointing out to a media agency that some of their comments regarding what happened are factually incorrect. In today's FRL, Pyles, and Bratke briefly addressed it and acknowledged that the "bouncing Lizak's head off the mat" never occurred as Nomad had previously claimed.

If you're not an FRL listener, then this thread isn't really relevant to you and the purpose of this thread would be irrelevant to you.
 
Nomad reminds me of those guys who tell college wrestlers how great he was in 8th grade. "Yeah you should have seen me. I beat all those guys that went on to greatness".
 
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