FRL

[Azchief32]

Always fun to listen to their takes but this week's was pretty interesting. According to them, Kemerer's performance this weekend was kind of "meh" vs Cortez who was great.
They used the old hedge...not going to say he is a contender against guys like Clark...but...

So let's review. Kemerer lucked out against Pierce...ref blew the whistle after Kem had gotten thrown on his back and was too "portly" to get into a good position to see a fall. Said Kem's airway was blocked. So I give that one to the Flo guys. But Kemerer wrestled back and beat Pierce for his only close win...the rest were by TF or pin except against Brandon. They also felt Kemerer was the better freestyler and Brandon is more suited for folk. Except Kemerer is better than Brandon on top.

Here's the rub...Kemerer's domination over the returning University champ and
AA should be taken with a grain of salt because Collica only wrestles when he wants to according to them. Last year, they ranked him over Sorensen solely based on his performance at University. Couldn't be anything else because Collica was not a previous AA.Kemerer finished 4th in 2015.

Conversely, Cortez took fifth and did not look very good doing it winning a 3-3 match over Tucker and then losing to him in consos. Laux stayed with him pretty well in their first match until Cortez laced him (I believe). Like I said on BWI, Cortez might be an AA candidate but he's not a shoe-in mostly because 133 is a tough bastard.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Always fun to listen to their takes but this week's was pretty interesting. According to them, Kemerer's performance this weekend was kind of "meh" vs Cortez who was great.
They used the old hedge...not going to say he is a contender against guys like Clark...but...

So let's review. Kemerer lucked out against Pierce...ref blew the whistle after Kem had gotten thrown on his back and was too "portly" to get into a good position to see a fall. Said Kem's airway was blocked. So I give that one to the Flo guys. But Kemerer wrestled back and beat Pierce for his only close win...the rest were by TF or pin except against Brandon. They also felt Kemerer was the better freestyler and Brandon is more suited for folk. Except Kemerer is better than Brandon on top.

Here's the rub...Kemerer's domination over the returning University champ and
AA should be taken with a grain of salt because Collica only wrestles when he wants to according to them. Last year, they ranked him over Sorensen solely based on his performance at University. Couldn't be anything else because Collica was not a previous AA.Kemerer finished 4th in 2015.

Conversely, Cortez took fifth and did not look very good doing it winning a 3-3 match over Tucker and then losing to him in consos. Laux stayed with him pretty well in their first match until Cortez laced him (I believe). Like I said on BWI, Cortez might be an AA candidate but he's not a shoe-in mostly because 133 is a tough bastard.

Yeah, this didn't make a lot of sense to me either

 

[Gobblin]

Sounds like a perfect hook, line, and sinker again... As they read this they chuckle aloud... "Success!"

 

[crablegs1]

Listened to the podcast yesterday. Didn't hear anything at all that sounded like any kind of slight towards the Iowa guys. They were very impressed with both Kemmerer and Sorenson. They think that Kemmerer will be an AA, and that there is no conceivable way to see Sorenson being anything less than a finalist.

 

[pinters]

That cats a Bozo why feed a monopolus troll
Oops JMO. ;-)

 

[McCulloughd]

So does that mean that I should vote for Clinton and not Trump or Trump and not Clinton?

 

[Neo_Hawk]

Always fun to listen to their takes but this week's was pretty interesting. According to them, Kemerer's performance this weekend was kind of "meh" vs Cortez who was great.
They used the old hedge...not going to say he is a contender against guys like Clark...but...

So let's review. Kemerer lucked out against Pierce...ref blew the whistle after Kem had gotten thrown on his back and was too "portly" to get into a good position to see a fall. Said Kem's airway was blocked. So I give that one to the Flo guys. But Kemerer wrestled back and beat Pierce for his only close win...the rest were by TF or pin except against Brandon. They also felt Kemerer was the better freestyler and Brandon is more suited for folk. Except Kemerer is better than Brandon on top.

Here's the rub...Kemerer's domination over the returning University champ and
AA should be taken with a grain of salt because Collica only wrestles when he wants to according to them. Last year, they ranked him over Sorensen solely based on his performance at University. Couldn't be anything else because Collica was not a previous AA.Kemerer finished 4th in 2015.

Conversely, Cortez took fifth and did not look very good doing it winning a 3-3 match over Tucker and then losing to him in consos. Laux stayed with him pretty well in their first match until Cortez laced him (I believe). Like I said on BWI, Cortez might be an AA candidate but he's not a shoe-in mostly because 133 is a tough bastard.

I get where the near pin of Kemerer was controversial and worthy of discussion on FRL, I feel that the domination and subsequent pin of Collica was a huge news story that they kind of brushed over. Not only is Collica a reigning AA, he also has a great FS resume, Flo mentioned in their preview that he beat Tshirt and Sorensen last year and predicted that he would finish a spot above Kem this year. While Kem beating a guy with this track record, who was predicted to finish ahead of him is not earth shattering news, the way he dominated him and then pinned him makes it's a pretty big deal, combined with his other match results he was worthy of more than, "yeah he beat Collica, but......"

We should all be pushing for more positive hawk coverage. It's time we "Make America Black and Gold Again"!

 

[FineMaterial]

I think you guys have Willie nervous. Every non-positive Iowa statement he seems to need to say something positive, even if it has nothing to do with what he's talking about.

 

[Azchief32]

I think you guys have Willie nervous. Every non-positive Iowa statement he seems to need to say something positive, even if it has nothing to do with what he's talking about.

I don't mind non positive statements. Had no
problem with the headlock comment even though nobody saw what the ref saw when he blew the whistle. Actually said Kem caught a break when it happened. I just think beating the defending University champ (like a drum) and returning AA deserves a bit more than a "Yeabut" while showering a guy that took fifth with superlatives.

 

[Mpchillin]

I don't mind non positive statements. Had no
problem with the headlock comment even though nobody saw what the ref saw when he blew the whistle. Actually said Kem caught a break when it happened. I just think beating the defending University champ (like a drum) and returning AA deserves a bit more than a "Yeabut" while showering a guy that took fifth with superlatives.

Haven't listened to it but what were the superlatives used to describe Cortez? From reading BWI, a lot of them thought he lacked any offense and his best win was against Tucker. Meanwhile, Kem was offensive in every match except against Sorensen and beat 3 national qualifiers including the 4th place finisher and defending champion of this tournament. Not really sure but those results don't seem comparable at all.

 

[Azchief32]

Could of swore they said this...went back, they didn't. My sincere apologies to the two lads. My tumor acting up again

They also felt Kemerer was the better freestyler and Brandon is more suited for folk. Except Kemerer is better than Brandon on top.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

So does that mean that I should vote for Clinton and not Trump or Trump and not Clinton?

Vote for neither. Remember - not voting IS a vote. =)

 

[hawkster03]

Could of swore they said this...went back, they didn't. My sincere apologies to the two lads. My tumor acting up again

I was wondering about that, I almost called you out on it. I think BS is an absolute hammer on top. I would think Kemerer probably needs to improve there like many young guys.

 

[WEH8ST8HAWK]

I was wondering about that, I almost called you out on it. I think BS is an absolute hammer on top. I would think Kemerer probably needs to improve there like many young guys.

I don't know if I would even remotely call Brandon a hammer on top. He rides guys, but doesn't turn them or pin them. Our definition of hammer might be different though.

 

[hawkster03]

I don't know if I would even remotely call Brandon a hammer on top. He rides guys, but doesn't turn them or pin them. Our definition of hammer might be different though.

Yeah good call. I was talking about riding a guy. Not as exciting as a turn but with riding time it can be the difference. Go Hawks!

 

[DonHawkeye]

I thought the same thing when I listened. To me it was pretty easy to see that Kemerer's stock went up and Cortez's went down after last week. I took away that Kemerer is big enough to wrestle 157 and he can blow matches out of the water against very good guys. Cortez to me looked to be a low AA at best and he is not going to be a 141lber. So it looks like Cortez at 133 and Guilibon both are going to be hard pressed to get on the podium.

 

[Azchief32]

I was wondering about that, I almost called you out on it. I think BS is an absolute hammer on top. I would think Kemerer probably needs to improve there like many young guys.

Kemerer is better on top. Won't even be close.

 

[hawkster03]

Kemerer is better on top. Won't even be close.

Yeah, well, listen. You ought to ditch the two geeks you're in the car with now and get in with us. But that's all right, we'll worry about that later. I will see you there. All right?

 

[Azchief32]

Yeah, well, listen. You ought to ditch the two geeks you're in the car with now and get in with us. But that's all right, we'll worry about that later. I will see you there. All right?

Gotta love those redheads. BTW, heard this is Kemerer's pre-match chant. East Coast guys...whadda ya gonna do, right?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Sounds like a perfect hook, line, and sinker again... As they read this they chuckle aloud... "Success!"

 

[Multi-Hawk]

Kemerer is better on top. Won't even be close.

Yep. BS can hold them down, but that's about it.

 

[CradleKing26]

I thought that was weird too. Kem looked great this weekend, although I do think he was pinned against Pierce.

 

[Azchief32]

I thought that was weird too. Kem looked great this weekend, although I do think he was pinned against Pierce.

Two things...Refs don't always seem to be out of position and are afraid to get on the mat too quickly. IIRC, the ref was a bigun. This happens though and any ref would have had to be in perfect position right after the throw when Kem was pinned. None of us could see what he could see per the airway.

They compared it to Sammy Brooks but Sammy clearly still had the arm with the headlock...ref blew the whistle, from the other side and said he didn't totally overruling the primary ref who had his eyes on. Not the same.

 

[ChristianPyles]

They compared it to Sammy Brooks but Sammy clearly still had the arm with the headlock...

As opposed to Pierce who had the arm with the headlock.

 

[Azchief32]

As opposed to Pierce who had the arm with the headlock.

Totally different issue...ref said his airway was covered and we couldn't see it because they had moved positions. I don't know what the ref saw to blow the whistle in Kemerer's match. Ref in the other match blew the whistle despite being out of position and the other ref was totally in position watching what Brooks was doing. Plus we saw it on video. Apples and oranges.

 

[crablegs1]

Totally different issue...ref said his airway was covered and we couldn't see it because they had moved positions. I don't know what the ref saw to blow the whistle in Kemerer's match. Ref in the other match blew the whistle despite being out of position and the other ref was totally in position watching what Brooks was doing. Plus we saw it on video. Apples and oranges.

You're right they are apples and oranges. In folkstyle a head without the arm is defined in the rulebook as illegal and the action to be stopped.

In the freestyle rulebooks there is no reason the ref would stop the bout in the situation described from the Kemmerer/Pierce match. Airway being covered is not an illegal hold, and there is no "potentially dangerous" or similar call in freestyle.

So the difference is in the Brooks match the ref thought he saw an illegal hold. He was wrong and did not see what he thought he did, but at least he had justification to stop the match. In the Kemmerer match regardless of whether the ref saw the airway being blocked or not there was no justification to stop the match.

 

[1stplacehawk]

At the end of the day Kemerer got caught against a kid he is clearly better than...it happens. After that move, Pierce did absolutely nothing but block off and circle. Arguing semantics is pointless, because win or lose everyone with their head screwed on straight knows who the better wrestler is. Pierce would go on to not place, while Kemerer would tech the kid that beat him on his way to 3rd.

 

[Azchief32]

o the difference is in the Brooks match the ref thought he saw an illegal hold. He was wrong and did not see what he thought he did, but at least he had justification to stop the match. In the Kemmerer match regardless of whether the ref saw the airway being blocked or not there was no justification t

So you can choke guys out in freestyle and a ref can't stop a match for safety or potentially dangerous holds? Also, the ref who stopped the match in Brooks's match had no view of it...so what illegal hold did he see to "justify" it?

I have said on here that I agree with the Flo guys that he was pinned and the ref was out of position. However, I did not see what he saw on the other side when he was looking straight down at the hold, as opposed to the Brooks ref.

 

[wasdt21]

definitely talking out his rear naked choke

 

[Azchief32]

"The judge’s duties include calling actions and holds as they see them. They may initiate calls, including falls, if they feel the referee was not in proper position to evaluate those actions. The referee’s main duties include maintaining the safety of the wrestlers at all times, starting and stopping the match appropriately, and in most cases, being the first to offer their judgment in evaluating actions. It is essential for the referees to move with the wrestlers and anticipate the actions of the wrestlers to be in the best position to evaluate actions as they occur."

In another section:

"The referee is obligated to stop the match if they determine a situation to be potentially dangerous and could possibly cause harm to either wrestler. The mat chairman should also have an active role in recognizing potentially dangerous actions and inform the referee if they believe the match should be stopped. Wrestling will restart in the standing position."

Under illegal holds, I found this:

"Throat holds or any other position of strangulation."

https://usawevents.sportngin.com/page/show/1018204-rule-book-and-guide-to-wrestling

 

[crablegs1]

I was going by the official UWW rules.

Strangulation, otherwise known as the restriction of blood circulation, is illegal. And the referee is to stop the match for an illegal hold.

Blocking the airway is not defined as illegal in the UWW rules. And there is nothing in the UWW rules about stoppage for potentially dangerous either. Only stoppage for illegal holds.


As far as Brooks goes - I stated he might not have been able to see it, but at least what he thought he saw was against the rules. He had a rule to back him up, even if what he saw was incorrect. I don't think the UWW rules even allow for a match stoppage as described in the Kemmerer situation.

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/governance/regulation/olympic

 

[Azchief32]

I was going by the official UWW rules.

Strangulation, otherwise known as the restriction of blood circulation, is illegal. And the referee is to stop the match for an illegal hold.

Blocking the airway is not defined as illegal in the UWW rules. And there is nothing in the UWW rules about stoppage for potentially dangerous either. Only stoppage for illegal holds.


As far as Brooks goes - I stated he might not have been able to see it, but at least what he thought he saw was against the rules. He had a rule to back him up, even if what he saw was incorrect. I don't think the UWW rules even allow for a match stoppage as described in the Kemmerer situation.

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/governance/regulation/olympic

 

[24 so far]

So you can choke guys out in freestyle and a ref can't stop a match for safety or potentially dangerous holds? Also, the ref who stopped the match in Brooks's match had no view of it...so what illegal hold did he see to "justify" it?

I have said on here that I agree with the Flo guys that he was pinned and the ref was out of position. However, I did not see what he saw on the other side when he was looking straight down at the hold, as opposed to the Brooks ref.

I didn't witness any of it (Kemerer). I'm already over it though.

 

[rossel 33]

from UWW rules:

p.36 Article 49 General Prohibitions- .... apply holds that may endanger the opponent’s life ......

Didn't see the match, but it seems the the rules give the ref some leeway in judging potential danger.

 

[crablegs1]

from UWW rules:

p.36 Article 49 General Prohibitions- .... apply holds that may endanger the opponent’s life ......

Didn't see the match, but it seems the the rules give the ref some leeway in judging potential danger.

Never in my life have I seen a wrestling hold that was threatening an opponents life.

 

[rossel 33]

Never in my life have I seen a wrestling hold that was threatening an opponents life.

well then....how silly of them to have made such a rule

 

[CradleKing26]

Two things...Refs don't always seem to be out of position and are afraid to get on the mat too quickly. IIRC, the ref was a bigun. This happens though and any ref would have had to be in perfect position right after the throw when Kem was pinned. None of us could see what he could see per the airway.

They compared it to Sammy Brooks but Sammy clearly still had the arm with the headlock...ref blew the whistle, from the other side and said he didn't totally overruling the primary ref who had his eyes on. Not the same.

Thats the first time I've seen it stopped (when they have the arm) at this level. Looked pretty pinned right at the 57 second mark under freestyle rules. Not complaining though

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/980378-70kg-r3-michael-kemerer-iowa-vs-oliver-pierce-asu

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Never in my life have I seen a wrestling hold that was threatening an opponents life.

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/4...-fleming-clarion-vs-frank-hickman-bloomsburgh

 

[Azchief32]

UWW ref stops Varner match for perceived choking...guess they can call it

 

[crablegs1]

UWW ref stops Varner match for perceived choking...guess they can call it

Yes, clearly. It is the first illegal move listed in the rules. Blocking the mouth, as was called in the match in question, is not an illegal hold. I guess unless you all think Kem's life was in danger.

1. Article 52 – Illegal Holds
   
   The following holds and actions are illegal and strictly prohibited:
   
   
   • - Throat hold