Genital Mutilation

[theIowaHawk]

No, preventing communicable disease is not in any way the same urgency class as cosmetic surgery on your junk, don't be ridiculous. That's like saying ear piercing is the same sort of urgent matter as removing a cancer growth.

Of course you glommed immediately on only to vaccinations and ignored every other one. Way to prove your point the only way you could.

 

[naturalmwa]

Of course you glommed immediately on only to vaccinations and ignored every other one. Way to prove your point the only way you could.

Of course, don't dick around with weaker arguments when you have a nice strong, firm point to drive home. Kind of you to admit my point was proved.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Of course, always lead with your best. Kind of you to admit my point was proved.

No, your point wasn't proved, your point using your own inherent opinions and biases was proved to yourself by picking the only thing that reinforced your original opinion.

And still people contend that vaccinations, at least not the amount of them, are necessary. That would still fit within the entire position I posted.

You didn't "lead" with your best, you only used your "best" because you didn't want to have to argue against the rest.

Just natural being natural.

 

[theIowaHawk]

It is actually quite interesting given your position on other things and proves something we've discussed at length on other topics.

You believe circumcision to be "mutilation", wrong and akin to abuse. Therefore it should be stopped.

Others think that abortion is "murder", wrong and akin to, well, murder. Therefore it should be stopped.

You choose opposing sides of the same coin in your arguments here. I don't. I acknowledge the viewpoints on both sides and allow others to simply decide for themselves.

 

[naturalmwa]

No, your point wasn't proved, your point using your own inherent opinions and biases was proved to yourself by picking the only thing that reinforced your original opinion.

And still people contend that vaccinations, at least not the amount of them, are necessary. That would still fit within the entire position I posted.

You didn't "lead" with your best, you only used your "best" because you didn't want to have to argue against the rest.

Just natural being natural.

Your position is beyond ridiculous. If vaccines and ear piercings are equal in your world, there is no helping you. The Yellowsnow false equivalency syndrome is spreading like wildfire in you.

 

[BelemNole]

Sorry, I was trying to point out that modern day male circumcision done to newborns in hospitals has little or nothing to do with tradition, as was said in the post I was replying to, not so much trying to justify it. Maybe did not do a good job of it. I suspect that most non-Jewish Americans were not circumcised when home births were the rule, and probably before Drs. did most of the attending. Not sure when it became common. However there are some stats out there, which started the rather common procedure of having it done in the hospitals soon after birth.

Of course it's done as due to tradition. It's done so they look like dad. It's done because it's "always been done."
It's not like the doctor walks in and recommends you do it.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Your position is beyond ridiculous. If vaccines and ear piercings are equal in your world, there is no helping you. The Yellowsnow false equivalency syndrome is spreading like wildfire in you.

Wow, never has a straw man been so perfectly executed, which is astounding because you then complain of false equivolancy.

Only one poster brought up ear piercings, that was you.

My point has been made, and you've chosen to basically lie. Beneath you natural.

 

[naturalmwa]

Wow, never has a straw man been so perfectly executed, which is astounding because you then complain of false equivolancy.

Only one poster brought up ear piercings, that was you.

My point has been made, and you've chosen to basically lie. Beneath you natural.

You must be bucking for deplorable status. You got the crazy, the alternative facts and the defense of the indefensible all working for you.

 

[theIowaHawk]

You must be bucking for deplorable status. You got the crazy, the alternative facts and the defense of the indefensible all working for you.

This exact post should identify and inform you of how badly you've mischaracterized and straw-man-ed my posts, because you would likely never put me within those catergories without your bias on this issue. The exact bias I was describing.

Look within.

 

[UKGrad93]

I thought separation of church and state referred to the state (govt) endorsing a religion or punishing those who don't practice a certain religion. Seems reasonable to me that religious groups would still have to follow the law of the land. To make an argument that whatever you are doing is part of a religion and therefore ok is crazy.

 

[INXS83]

There is a little/some evidence that circumcision can have health benefits. But millions and millions of men around the world are not circumcised and have had no issues (I mean, that's how they came into the world, so surely God/evolution/Cthulu/Flying Spaghetti Monster may have an idea of what the foreskin is for). And the foreskin is very sensitive, leading to more/better sexual pleasure when he grows up. So circumcision is not necessary. Ask parents why they had their son circumcised...if they didn't do it for religious reasons, then they likely did it because "daddy is circumcised" or they don't want him to be teased after gym class.

There are proven health benefits to vaccination, appropriate medicine, etc.

As for religious stuff...expose him (or her!) to all sorts of religions and let him (or her!) decide.

I always wondered if male circumcision increased the chances of a female getting pregnant during unprotected sex. One would think you would get deeper sperm penetration that way.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I thought separation of church and state referred to the state (govt) endorsing a religion or punishing those who don't practice a certain religion. Seems reasonable to me that religious groups would still have to follow the law of the land. To make an argument that whatever you are doing is part of a religion and therefore ok is crazy.

Lots of law on this, basically the laws have to be the same for all and not just impact one religious practice unfairly.

Very complicated positions all around.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Of course it's done as due to tradition. It's done so they look like dad. It's done because it's "always been done."
It's not like the doctor walks in and recommends you do it.

Hasn't always been done.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying people aren't outraged enough?

I think the point is being made is that people bend over backwards to defend and deflect anything negative about islam and muslim culture..........these are usually the same outspoken people that preach being all in on protecting women against brutality and violence(real and perceived) at all costs. Yet many of these same people fall silent, and disappear from the discussion as soon as muslim practices and realities rear their ugly head......they won't of flat out refuse to criticize the violence they are so ready to fight against, because it's coming from a group they try so hard to defend endlessly.

 

[Urohawk]

Don't get what everyone is so upset about. Male genital mutilation is common in this country and completely legal for any reason what so ever.

Why is it illegal when it comes to girls?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. Although circumcision is based in religion, it actually has a lot of health benefits. It's been proven to reduce the risk of HIV, syphilis, HPV, and penile cancer.

Female genital mutilation actually involves cutting off the clitoris and labia. That is the surgical equivalent of amputating your penis and removing your scrotum. Many women then have their vaginas nearly closed. The Somali's I have taken care of literally have their vaginal opening closed to the point where I can't even insert a pinky finger. This is to assure their chastity and that when they are married they are still pure. When they get married their husbands basically insert and tear the area open. On a size comparison its about equivalent to shoving a coke can in your anus.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. Although circumcision is based in religion, it actually has a lot of health benefits. It's been proven to reduce the risk of HIV, syphilis, HPV, and penile cancer.

Female genital mutilation actually involves cutting off the clitoris and labia. That is the surgical equivalent of amputating your penis and removing your scrotum. Many women then have their vaginas nearly closed. The Somali's I have taken care of literally have their vaginal opening closed to the point where I can't even insert a pinky finger. This is to assure their chastity and that when they are married they are still pure. When they get married their husbands basically insert and tear the area open. On a size comparison its about equivalent to shoving a coke can in your anus.

Thanks Dr. I can't believe that lack of anatomical knowledge shown in this thread. People think this is equivalent to circumcision.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. Although circumcision is based in religion, it actually has a lot of health benefits. It's been proven to reduce the risk of HIV, syphilis, HPV, and penile cancer.

Female genital mutilation actually involves cutting off the clitoris and labia. That is the surgical equivalent of amputating your penis and removing your scrotum. Many women then have their vaginas nearly closed. The Somali's I have taken care of literally have their vaginal opening closed to the point where I can't even insert a pinky finger. This is to assure their chastity and that when they are married they are still pure. When they get married their husbands basically insert and tear the area open. On a size comparison its about equivalent to shoving a coke can in your anus.

@naturalwma

 

[artradley]

Those are justifications, but not real reasons. It's not a "recommend procedure", it's elective surgery that we rationalize with some minor benefits seen in some people. You are not putting your child at any real risk by not getting it done. Probably a higher risk of complications from the surgery - would be interesting to see the numbers.

Sorry, I was trying to point out that modern day male circumcision done to newborns in hospitals has little or nothing to do with tradition, as was said in the post I was replying to, not so much trying to justify it. Maybe did not do a good job of it. I suspect that most non-Jewish Americans were not circumcised when home births were the rule, and probably before Drs. did most of the attending. Not sure when it became common. However there are some stats out there, which started the rather common procedure of having it done in the hospitals soon after birth.

On the whole, there is not a general recommendation for universal circumcision, because any potential health benefits are tiny. So I'd say it's still done because of tradition. Look at it this way; if it had not been done for years through tradition doctors would not be performing it routinely today. They do it because it's what most have done for years, and there's no medical reason not to.

 

[IACub]

I think the point is being made is that people bend over backwards to defend and deflect anything negative about islam and muslim culture..........these are usually the same outspoken people that preach being all in on protecting women against brutality and violence(real and perceived) at all costs. Yet many of these same people fall silent, and disappear from the discussion as soon as muslim practices and realities rear their ugly head......they won't of flat out refuse to criticize the violence they are so ready to fight against, because it's coming from a group they try so hard to defend endlessly.

You couldn't be more wrong. What people don't want is xenophobes using genital mutilation as an excuse to brand an entire people. But this archaic tradition is horrific, these parents and doctors can die as far as I care.

Tell me this, if you're really so outraged by this practice, and really want to do something about it, how do you think you solve it? By ostracizing an entire religion as backwards and terrible people, or by recognizing it's a small percentage of them and trying to wipe it out where we can?

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

You couldn't be more wrong. What people don't want is xenophobes using genital mutilation as an excuse to brand an entire people. But this archaic tradition is horrific, these parents and doctors can die as far as I care.

Tell me this, if you're really so outraged by this practice, and really want to do something about it, how do you think you solve it? By ostracizing an entire religion as backwards and terrible people, or by recognizing it's a small percentage of them and trying to wipe it out where we can?

Arresting the Dr. and prosecuting him for doing it. Yes, I know the opens up a whole new discussion for the opponents of circumcision. I've said NOTHING about ostracizing anyone......only putting the practice to a halt. If mutilating women is "part of their religion".......then that is a bigger problem to talk about and deal with.