Good Article: Why Millennials are Drawn to Socialism

[Big Hawk D-Port]

No mostly because for the first 20 or 30 years we where busy building ourselves up into a superpower while the rest of the world was trying to re-build.

You can't ignore that we where the only industrialized country that was pretty much untouched at home by the war. Our cities where not battlefields, our factories where not bombed.

Europe was pretty much flattened by warfare. China had that war and their civil war plus a crappy commie government.

Also the EU isn't a single country. They only recently within the last 15 or so years gotten one single currency. They still all have kept their native languages. So I don't think you can quite treat them like they are the United States of Europe. At least not yet.

I am guessing that if you look from the 1980's onward we don't have such a big advantage.

It didn’t take Europe near that long to rebuild. In fact the early 50s showed some of the greatest growth in Western European history. By the mid 50s agricultural production surpassed pre war levels for example.

My suspicion is that the gap increased in the 80s and 90s but I’m not certain.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Do you ever get tired of when the liberals point to the Nordic countries as examples of successful ways to do things?

Do those counties ring a bell at all?

Again, when you have the population of a small New England state and have the strictest immigration policies on earth, it can work. As soon as you convince the left on this country to shut down the borders and kick out that "11 million living in the shadows" we keep hearing about, I'm willing to give it a go. But until then, it will never work. Oh...I'm guessing they have more than 47% of their population paying taxes as well. Good luck with winning that argument too.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

If redistribution led to prosperity then other countries would be lapping us, but they’re not. Of course that notion doesn’t even make common sense either.

And LOL that government research created the iPhone. Intuition based on understanding the customer created the iPhone, 2 things government agencies neither posses nor desire.

You like that touch screen? US govt funding. GPS? Govt. Internet? Govt. Siri? Govt.

Could you have an iPhone without all that?

 

[ThorneStockton]

Again, when you have the population of a small New England state and have the strictest immigration policies on earth, it can work. As soon as you convince the left on this country to shut down the borders and kick out that "11 million living in the shadows" we keep hearing about, I'm willing to give it a go. But until then, it will never work. Oh...I'm guessing they have more than 47% of their population paying taxes as well. Good luck with winning that argument too.

You don't seem to get the point I was making. In it's simplest form: conservatives don't like hearing about Nordic countries and often do what you just did. Liberals similarly dismiss the "go to Venezuela if you like Bernie Sanders!" level of discourse.

 

[SotaHawk87]

It amazes me that Americans can look at the miracle that is our country, and then think “we should be more like the other countries that can’t keep up with us.”

This is something that has had me scratching my head for YEARS!!

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

It didn’t take Europe near that long to rebuild. In fact the early 50s showed some of the greatest growth in Western European history. By the mid 50s agricultural production surpassed pre war levels for example.

My suspicion is that the gap increased in the 80s and 90s but I’m not certain.

To rebuild everything and get going again. . . Oh it took them a long time.

Agricutural production is meaningless. You don't have to build buildings to farm food. Just got to buy some machines.

How long did it take for their civilian industrial output to climb back?

 

[naturalmwa]

It’s not like Europe or Asia never get anything right. Of course they have smart people too. But America has indeed created MOST of the important stuff since WW2, because we have millions of entrepreneurs trying and failing / succeeding at a scale no other country does.

This isn't true either. Go Google what countries have the most entrepreneurs. Your world view is based on fiction.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

When it comes down to the nitty gritty of how it ends up working then it ends up being the government owning the means of production. "On behalf of the workers" of course.

No. That's a variant of communism (when practiced on a large scale). We have experimented with that sort of thing on a small scale - as for example when the government runs water treatment or other crucial utilities. It often makes more sense for the government to run such things than operate them as for-profit enterprises.

When it comes to water safety, for example, do we really want private utilities deciding who should get clean water, or deciding to boost profits by cutting quality? Obviously governments can screw those things up, too - as witness Flint. But even there, it was business party ethics and trying to cut corners that created that horror show.

Other things work better in a market environment. Whether they are owned by workers or entrepreneurs is yet another angle to look at it from - as either of those can thrive (or fail) in a market. So, for example, you can have public health insurance and private health insurance operating side-by-side. Or banks.

Yet other things probably shouldn't have private alternatives. Do we want a private army, navy, or air force bidding for "jobs" alongside or even in opposition to US foreign policy? Frankly, with the rise of organizations like Blackwater (by whatever name it's hiding behind these days), we are treading dangerous ground, imo.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No. That's a variant of communism (when practiced on a large scale). We have experimented with that sort of thing on a small scale - as for example when the government runs water treatment or other crucial utilities. It often makes more sense for the government to run such things than operate them as for-profit enterprises.

When it comes to water safety, for example, do we really want private utilities deciding who should get clean water, or deciding to boost profits by cutting quality? Obviously governments can screw those things up, too - as witness Flint. But even there, it was business party ethics and trying to cut corners that created that horror show.

Other things work better in a market environment. Whether they are owned by workers or entrepreneurs is yet another angle to look at it from - as either of those can thrive (or fail) in a market. So, for example, you can have public health insurance and private health insurance operating side-by-side. Or banks.

Yet other things probably shouldn't have private alternatives. Do we want a private army, navy, or air force bidding for "jobs" alongside or even in opposition to US foreign policy? Frankly, with the rise of organizations like Blackwater (by whatever name it's hiding behind these days), we are treading dangerous ground, imo.

Most of the things we have the government running are not means of production so much as they are infrastructure and defense. Shoot the military doesn't even build it's own tanks.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

You don't seem to get the point I was making. In it's simplest form: conservatives don't like hearing about Nordic countries and often do what you just did. Liberals similarly dismiss the "go to Venezuela if you like Bernie Sanders!" level of discourse.

Sorry. Mistook what you were saying. We have too many people and an over bureaucratic under-regulating (if thats even possible) government in place to have any pure form of economic or political system, Im sure you'll agree.

 

[joelbc1]

It’s not like Europe or Asia never get anything right. Of course they have smart people too. But America has indeed created MOST of the important stuff since WW2, because we have millions of entrepreneurs trying and failing / succeeding at a scale no other country does.

We also controlled the world's money since WW2. A factor not to be forgotten. The US was basically unscathed from WW2. WW2 allowed America to increase its industrial strength to levels never comprehended by man before the conflict. Japan and Europe were flattened industrially and manpower-wise....as well as financially ruined.

 

[ihhawk]

Again, when you have the population of a small New England state and have the strictest immigration policies on earth, it can work. As soon as you convince the left on this country to shut down the borders and kick out that "11 million living in the shadows" we keep hearing about, I'm willing to give it a go. But until then, it will never work. Oh...I'm guessing they have more than 47% of their population paying taxes as well. Good luck with winning that argument too.

We totally need to use a country like Finland as our example. 5 million people who all look the same. It easily compares to the USA.

The reason it wont work here is that the USA has a huge number of folks who dont pay federal income tax. So when we move over to Finland;s model, the average rate there is 51%. They also have a sales tax of 24%.

Good luck selling that to the USA population...of those who actually work.

 

[BrianNole09]

A lot of millennials are attracted to socialism...until they start working and advancing a bit and realize how much the government takes and wastes from their paycheck...

 

[Auger]

Agreed. We built the best country in the world that everyone wants to come to. Is it perfect...no. Was it built on perfect moral standards...no. But it is still exceptional compared to the rest of the world.

The main pillar for our greatness that has propelled us has been capitalism.

I work with transplants from Sweden, the UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia, China, India, Germany and many other nations. One thing they all say is they can't believe how much they can have and afford living in the States compared to their native countries. They say the American Dream is real. I should note that they all live in conservative states with low tax rates.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

This isn't true either. Go Google what countries have the most entrepreneurs. Your world view is based on fiction.

The top link in your recommended search says the United States has the most entrepreneurs.
https://www.virgin.com/entrepreneur/worlds-most-entrepreneurial-countries-2015-revealed

 

[SL Hawk Fan]

Just wanted to throw a couple tangential thoughts into this conversation. Not meant to refute any claims made previously, but hopefully add to the depth of the discussion.

1. On Entrepreneurship: People immigrating to the US generally display the highest degree of entrepreneurship. This is likely due to at least 2 primary reasons: They are "hungrier" than most native born Americans and they are more likely to be excluded from traditional employment opportunities necessitating their entrepreneurial endeavors.
   
   
2. On Innovation: Take a gander at the USPTO website sometime and note the names of the inventors. A great many of these inventors are foreign born or first generation Americans. This is a testament to the greatness of our American system because of the opportunities it affords; but don't discount how important immigrants are to making that dream a reality.
   
   
3. On private vs public ownership: I generally agree that there are some parts of our system that need to be under public (gov't) control, while other parts do best in a capitalist or quasi-capitalist environment. With that said, it is undeniable that many of our greatest discoveries and innovations would not have happened without the support/subsidization of the government and educational system. The costs to develop many of our most important innovations were too great (and the risks too high) for private capital to fund the initial research, but government and college research institutions carried the load. Once the concept was refined and "marketable" the capitalist portion of the system was used to achieve commercialization.

Surely, you've all heard the expression "socialize the losses, privatize the gains"

That is all. Carry on.

 

[naturalmwa]

The top link in your recommended search says the United States has the most entrepreneurs.
https://www.virgin.com/entrepreneur/worlds-most-entrepreneurial-countries-2015-revealed

The U of Iowa teaches different. Most 3rd world nations are filled with small business owners. You're pointing out America has good regulations, not that we have a culture of entrepreneurship above all others.