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Greco

butchinmi

HB MVP
Mar 20, 2015
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So I happened to bump in to the Medal matches on TV and started watching. 3 matches in and not a single offensive point scored, purely subjective passivity calls determined the winner in all 3. Am I just that novice of a viewer when it comes to Greco or is that the norm?
 
Greco is awful right now. I tried to watch it but it was rough. The best guys just control the center and have amazing defense.

On FRL Willie and Christian brought up a good idea of allowing the use of legs for trips/foot sweeps and things like that. It would definitely help make it more offensive.

The only thing is, it would be a huge rule change and I'm sure the Greco purists would be against it. Something has to change.
 
Need to legalize chairs. We been through this . . .

chair-shot.gif
 
I think Greco just needs to be cut.
I don't see any rule changes that can make this exciting.
And, a sport that was nearly eliminated from the Olympics can't really afford a niche sub category of itself in Greco.
Add more FS Olympics weights, say bye to Greco.

Sad to say but I kind of agree. The built in gender medal imbalance is one of the biggest threats to wrestling remaining an Olympic sport. Like it or not the IOC has frequently stated that gender parity in medals awarded is one of their major goals. As long as greco remains there will be an imbalance in the sport.
 
Sad to say but I kind of agree. The built in gender medal imbalance is one of the biggest threats to wrestling remaining an Olympic sport. Like it or not the IOC has frequently stated that gender parity in medals awarded is one of their major goals. As long as greco remains there will be an imbalance in the sport.
I was thinking the same thing.
 
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I think Greco just needs to be cut.
I don't see any rule changes that can make this exciting.
And, a sport that was nearly eliminated from the Olympics can't really afford a niche sub category of itself in Greco.
Add more FS Olympics weights, say bye to Greco.
I am a fan of Greco, but not in present form. They have to force action to make it worth watching.

If they got rid of Greco it would look like a slight against the Middle East. I did not check after the last olympics, but other years there have been many Middle Eastern countries that only medal in Greco and maybe Judo or some other more obscure sport. I think Greco is as safe as Freestyle.
 
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I am a fan of Greco, but not in present form. They have to force action to make it worth watching.

If they got rid of Greco it would look like a slight against the Middle East. I did not check after the last olympics, but other years there have been many Middle Eastern countries that only medal in Greco and maybe Judo or some other more obscure sport. I think Greco is as safe as Freestyle.
you can still throw guys in freestyle.
In fact, you get a lot of points to do it.
Greco would free up 6 olympic spots for both men and women.
I tried giving Greco a shot. It was like drinking my first beer.
Aweful at first, but than I told myself I liked it cause, I didn't want to be the "cat" word.
Drink a few more and still don't like it, others tell me it'll grow on me.
Continue to drink busch light for years until brewers realized that beer can actually have flavor.
Many years later, Finally enjoy drinking beer.
I'm not waiting around for Greco to get flavor. Wrestling doesn't have the luxury of time to wait for it either.
 
Kind of interesting. 2016 olympics. In no particular order.

Country Greco medals/Total medals
Norway 1/4
Belarus 1/9
Armenia 2/4
Turkey 2/8
Georgia 1/7
Serbia 1/8
Ukraine 1/11
Denmark 1/15
Iran 1/8 (4/8 in Freestyle)
Cuba 3/11
Uzbekistan 1/13
 
Greco is beautiful when wrestlers are wrestling offensively, but it's a snoozefest otherwise, just like all the other disciplines.

I agree to both points. Last spring at the trials in IC, I had a blast watching the Greco. Yeah, sure, there were some boring matches, but for the most part, the wrestlers opened up, because they had the big prize at the end. It was fun.

With that said, any wrestling style can be boring, even for the biggest fan, if the wrestlers shut it down and the official lets them.
 
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For the record, Greco is actually more popular for the men across the World than freestyle... Before some of you shoot your coffee out of your nose, for one example you can just look at the entries for this year's World Championships. 293 entries for Greco and 273 for freestyle. The Scandinavian countries don't even wrestle freestyle at all. They just do Greco. However, the style has become boring as hell as it becomes a chess match, cat and mouse, play it safe load of b.s. I call it the trap door spider style. Sit, hide, wait, and wait, and wait. At the moment a meal is there, you suddenly pounce, score, and disappear. You hide, and do nothing as you savor your meal for a week. Greco is supposed to be the exciting style with it being more physical and a brawl with big throws and slick drags, go behinds etc. If you remember the 2008 Olympics, if it was 0-0 with :30 left one wrestler would go down in par terre. If he didn't get turned he was awarded a point, and that meant winning that period. That process really sucked. Manuchar Kvirkvelia of Georgia was one of the few guys that got after it (and the reason why he dominated to a Gold medal and he even threw a 5 in the final-but it did start from the ordered hold in par terre). The rules we have now are only a minor improvement. If you watch the matches at Fargo you see how Greco should be wrestled. Most of those kids have not been corrupted yet, and haven't yet developed the play it safe and wait for their moment style. I think Matt Lindland is preaching the aggressive fight and brawl style but guys are not buying in.
 
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Sad to say but I kind of agree. The built in gender medal imbalance is one of the biggest threats to wrestling remaining an Olympic sport. Like it or not the IOC has frequently stated that gender parity in medals awarded is one of their major goals. As long as greco remains there will be an imbalance in the sport.

Glad to see the IOC is so invested in social engineering.

Are they taking any steps to get men involved in synchronized swimming or rhythmic gymnastics?
 
For the record, Greco is actually more popular for the men across the World than freestyle... Before some of you shoot your coffee out of your nose, for one example you can just look at the entries for this year's World Championships. 293 entries for Greco and 273 for freestyle. The Scandinavian countries don't even wrestle freestyle at all. They just do Greco. However, the style has become boring as hell as it becomes a chess match, cat and mouse, play it safe load of b.s. I call it the trap door spider style. Sit, hide, wait, and wait, and wait. At the moment a meal is there, you suddenly pounce, score, and disappear. You hide, and do nothing as you savor your meal for a week.

Two things:

First, is your participation assertion even correct? I'm not necessarily dismissing it out of hand, but you can't just use world entries as a proxy for worldwide participation numbers. Freestyle is much more popular than Greco in some of the really big countries, like the USA, Russia, Iran, the Asian countries, etc. Also, you can't really use the popularity in Scandinavian countries as an argument either. Those countries are tiny. The entire region has maybe 25m people total.

Second, I have to admit I didn't watch much Greco at the worlds this year, but was the scoring equally as bad outside the medal matches? Sometimes there is so much pressure in the medal matches -- and guys are so equally matched -- that you do tend to get strategic, low-scoring matches. Sometimes that happens at the NCAA finals as well with lots of 3-2 or 5-4 matches. It's hard to judge a style just based on the world finals. What's the point scoring like at other world tournaments, or at the national tournaments?
 
Two things:

First, is your participation assertion even correct? I'm not necessarily dismissing it out of hand, but you can't just use world entries as a proxy for worldwide participation numbers. Freestyle is much more popular than Greco in some of the really big countries, like the USA, Russia, Iran, the Asian countries, etc. Also, you can't really use the popularity in Scandinavian countries as an argument either. Those countries are tiny. The entire region has maybe 25m people total.

Second, I have to admit I didn't watch much Greco at the worlds this year, but was the scoring equally as bad outside the medal matches? Sometimes there is so much pressure in the medal matches -- and guys are so equally matched -- that you do tend to get strategic, low-scoring matches. Sometimes that happens at the NCAA finals as well with lots of 3-2 or 5-4 matches. It's hard to judge a style just based on the world finals. What's the point scoring like at other world tournaments, or at the national tournaments?
Are you sure freestyle is more popular in Russia? I think Greco is pretty big there.
 
Greco is more "popular" than freestyle outside of the states. Higher number of participation for sure. It's just hard for us to understand it because free so closely resembles the collegiate (i.e. fandom) style. But, Greco at the upper level is just boring to watch. Period.

The only solution is to make the refs more accountable, make them wrestle chest to chest and no holding. The problem with that is no one wants that. I do agree Greco should be dropped from the Olympics. More weights for free, and you can see that the rules alone, without human interference and without ordered nuances (forced par terre), it is aesthetically pleasing. The heavyweight match was 10-8!
 
FrontHeadlock2, nobody ever insinuated that Freestyle was not popular in Russia... However, your claims that Freestyle is more popular in Russia, and Iran, is based on what? What you feel? I at least provided a couple of real world facts. Your response was to dismiss the Scandinavian countries as not worthy of mentioning because of their population. In Iran, Russia, and the former Soviet Republics for example, Greco does not take a backseat to Freestyle. Has the UWW/FILA practically ruined the entertainment value of the sport with its rules, and have wrestlers adopted a style that makes it unbearable to watch at time? Absolutely.
 
FrontHeadlock2, nobody ever insinuated that Freestyle was not popular in Russia... However, your claims that Freestyle is more popular in Russia, and Iran, is based on what? What you feel? I at least provided a couple of real world facts. Your response was to dismiss the Scandinavian countries as not worthy of mentioning because of their population. In Iran, Russia, and the former Soviet Republics for example, Greco does not take a backseat to Freestyle. Has the UWW/FILA practically ruined the entertainment value of the sport with its rules, and have wrestlers adopted a style that makes it unbearable to watch at time? Absolutely.

Now wait just one second. You said Greco was more popular worldwide than freestyle, and to back that up you said (i) there were 20 more entrants to Greco worlds and (ii) the Scandinavian countries wrestled Greco almost exclusively.

I said that I'm not dismissing that claim out of hand, but that your arguments didn't necessarily lead to that conclusion. The # of world championship entrants has no relation to worldwide popularity, and Scandinavian countries which number 25m in population don't really tip the scales that much given a worldwide population of over 7b.

You're right to call me out when I said that FS was more popular in certain countries. What I should have said was that FS was very popular in some of the bigger countries (and bigger wrestling countries) like Russia, Iran, Japan, etc. That combined with the fact that FS is much more popular in the USA I would think gives FS the overall edge, but I'd be happy to look at data to the contrary.
 
Ok, I was called out on a claim regarding the popularity of Greco around the World: Below is a list of nations at the recent World Championships that didn't field a full entry list in both styles (8 in Greco and 8 in Freestyle).
Greco Freestyle
Azerbaijan
8 7

Kyrgyzstan 8 7

China 8 7

Belarus 8 6

Georgia 8 6

Germany 8 6

Hungary 8 5

Armenia 8 5

Bulgaria 7 6

France 7 6

Poland 7 5

Lithuania 6 1

Austria 4 1

Egypt 6 1

Sweden 5 0

Czech 5 0

Croatia 4 0

Greece 4 2

Romania 4 3

Columbia 3 2

Brazil 3 0

Estonia 3 1

Finland 3 2

Morocco 3 2

Denmark 3 0

Countries that had more entries in Freestyle than Greco:
Greco Freestyle
Kazakhstan 7 8

Canada 1 7

Moldova 3 8

Dom. Rep 3 4

Australia 0 2

PRK 1 3

Spain 1 3

there are a few more, but they brought a very small contingent with only a couple of wrestlers total with no shot at all of winning a match...
 
Can't speak for worldwide favorites, but my bias is favoring FS, and some of it has to do with liking collegiate wrestling and following those stars after their collegiate career ends. It seems like virtually every guy that was a superstar in collegiate ends up in FS, not Greco.

The mutli-year ncaa champs, all the great ones - Gable, Kemp, Schultz bros, Monday, Smith, Brands bros, Cael, Burroughs, Snyder and a slew of others - they all went FS. Off the top of my head I cannot think of one Greco star from USA who was an ncaa champ. Has there been one?

Look where Cox, Taylor, Dake, Metcalf, Ruth, Zain, Nolf, Ringer, Tomasello, Gilman, Hall, Spencer Lee and so many other young stars are headed.... it ain't Greco. It seems like in FS, in the USA at least, it is the 2nd tier collegiate stars that go into it.

Agree with Sandor....expand FS weight classes, and bag Greco for future Olympics.
 
Of course collegiate wrestlers gravitate toward Freestyle.

Folkstyle = leg attacks
Freestyle = leg attacks
Greco = upper body attacks
Sumo = upper body attacks/sweeps/underwear pull.

Popularity is regional around the world. Middle East, Northern Europe, and large parts of Asia love Greco. If Greco is removed from Olympics Freestyle will not survive. The common fight to keep wrestling in both forms is what brought enough countries together to demand it stay in the Olympics. If that bond is fractured they both have the same fate.
 
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Ok, I was called out on a claim regarding the popularity of Greco around the World: Below is a list of nations at the recent World Championships that didn't field a full entry list in both styles (8 in Greco and 8 in Freestyle).
Greco Freestyle
Azerbaijan
8 7

Kyrgyzstan 8 7

China 8 7

Belarus 8 6

Georgia 8 6

Germany 8 6

Hungary 8 5

Armenia 8 5

Bulgaria 7 6

France 7 6

Poland 7 5

Lithuania 6 1

Austria 4 1

Egypt 6 1

Sweden 5 0

Czech 5 0

Croatia 4 0

Greece 4 2

Romania 4 3

Columbia 3 2

Brazil 3 0

Estonia 3 1

Finland 3 2

Morocco 3 2

Denmark 3 0

Countries that had more entries in Freestyle than Greco:
Greco Freestyle
Kazakhstan 7 8

Canada 1 7

Moldova 3 8

Dom. Rep 3 4

Australia 0 2

PRK 1 3

Spain 1 3

there are a few more, but they brought a very small contingent with only a couple of wrestlers total with no shot at all of winning a match...

Stats and geography at the same time. Nice! Now I'm curious about why Moldova is heavily weighted to freestyle (Canada is understandable.)
 
Ok, I was called out on a claim regarding the popularity of Greco around the World: Below is a list of nations at the recent World Championships that didn't field a full entry list in both styles (8 in Greco and 8 in Freestyle).

You already said there were more entrants in the Greco tournament, so these stats are not surprising. You'd expect this to be the outcome.
 
My point with the most recent post was not to look at the number of entries, but to look at some of the nations that field more Greco... You made an assertion that Freestyle is more popular "in the really big countries.." Which, by the way is false, except for the USA and Canada... But, Canada is big by land mass, not by population or wrestling tradition... Look at those fielding more Greco, they aren't smaller countries with no pull or wrestling tradition. China, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Germany. Your "big" countries field full teams in both styles... Your assertions are based on your gut feeling and personal preference, and an assumption that what is more popular in America must be how it is world wide. Do you think Russia would let Greco go? Try taking that up with gangster extraordinaire, Greco World Champ, Greco Olympic Gold Medalist, and head of the Russian Wrestling Federation, Mikhail Mamiashvili.
 
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My point with the most recent post was not to look at the number of entries, but to look at some of the nations that field more Greco... You made an assertion that Freestyle is more popular "in the really big countries.." Which, by the way is false, except for the USA and Canada... But, Canada is big by land mass, not by population or wrestling tradition... Look at those fielding more Greco, they aren't smaller countries with no pull or wrestling tradition. China, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Germany. Your "big" countries field full teams in both styles... Your assertions are based on your gut feeling and personal preference, and an assumption that what is more popular in America must be how it is world wide. Do you think Russia would let Greco go? Try taking that up with gangster extraordinaire, Greco World Champ, Greco Olympic Gold Medalist, and head of the Russian Wrestling Federation, Mikhail Mamiashvili.

Brother, I'm not sure why you're having such a tough time here.

At no point did I ever dismiss your contention that Greco may be more popular worldwide. In fact, I said that I specifically WAS NOT DISMISSING your contention. Rather, I said that you can't look at numbers of world championship entrants and popularity in a few small countries (Scandinavian) as conclusive evidence that Greco is more popular worldwide.

You are now suggesting that some big countries had more Greco entrants than FS entrants. First of all, most of those discrepancies are 1-2 wrestlers, and second of all, THERE ARE MORE TOTAL WRESTLERS IN THE GRECO BRACKETS. The larger brackets for Greco is key because, since a country is capped at 8, it allows other countries to take more Greco wrestlers. I have no idea why there are more Greco entrants than FS entrants. It may be bc Greco is more popular world wide, but it may be for another reason. I have no idea.

I also have no idea whether Russia would let Greco go. I'm guessing they wouldn't. Heck, I've never wrestled a second of Greco and I'd want it to stay.

So again, after all your posts, we are still in the same spot. You are saying Greco is much more popular worldwide. I am saying, yes, that may be true, but you can't make that claim just off the fact that the world championships allowed ~7% more entrants for Greco, and because some smaller countries might prefer Greco. You'd need to look at something like participation numbers, which I'd bet every national federation has, and that would be pretty good evidence of popularity. You'd also probably have to look at revealed preferences among wrestlers. In the USA for example, there is certainly a freestyle bias, and a lot of our Greco wrestlers (relax, not all) would probably err towards freestyle if they were more successful at it, but they usually aren't and are better in Greco so they go that route. Again, not making a claim either way, but in Russia for example, I have no idea when kids will choose to focus on FS or Greco, and whether that decision process comes down to local historical preferences, coaching availability, the fact that they can't compete as well in their preferred style and must switch to a less preferred style, or some combination of reasons.

Also, keep in mind that Freestyle, and not Greco, was chosen as the preferred style for women's wrestling. That certainly says something, even if it's not conclusive evidence either.

So now, with all that said, you still keep saying Greco is much more popular worldwide. And again I ask, is there any hard evidence to back that up?
 
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