Greece: A Morality Problem
- Thread starter 86Hawkeye
- Start date
Fair enough, but what equals "your share"? Obviously Greece was lazy in collecting taxes but there gets to be a point taxing the rich to redistribute feels like theft.
I think that's best determined by the law. I'm not real familiar with Greek tax laws, are you?
I don't know if it is a "morality" issue as much as it might be a classic "ethics" (gk./ ethos) question. Perhap's just a subtle difference but one that deserves some thought.
I do know that Greece does a have rather serious arithmetic problem. The moral issue might be those folks who refuse to pay the taxes they have bought into.
I do know that Greece does a have rather serious arithmetic problem. The moral issue might be those folks who refuse to pay the taxes they have bought into.
Such as restaurants writing receipts for only about 50% of the meal cost, but charging you the full amount. And then every house is under "construction" in some small way because as long as the project is ongoing, the property taxes are lower.
It isn't just "rich" people. The whole population is full of cheaters who voted for benefits they cannot possibly pay for. Those who see this in the correct perspective will see that the US is following them down a path of disaster. We can print our own currency, but eventually other countries will view it as toilet paper if we do that too much.
Morality = living beyond your means.
Morality = lending to people you know are irresponsible with money.
It seems from the outside looking in the lenders were stupid and the borrowers were also stupid, but in a different way.
Much like the housing bubble here. Unfortunately we tax payers were left holding the bag for lefty policies.
I recall a graphic from Morning Joe last week where it was shown the close to 90% of Greeks didn't pay their taxes, and less than 3% of Germans don't. If I was a German taxpayer, I would be pissed.
Think about this statement and bring it home to the USA. This is EXACTLY what we do. Most Americans do live betond their means. Too many Americans are irresponsible with borrowed money.....much less their own. And finally, "we the people" have loaned the Wall Street banksters money and the banksters were irresponsible with their borrowed money...hence the financial collapse of 2008.
What separates the Greek and American society is the duty Americans feel towards paying their taxes. I think, ethically speaking, Americans are more fiscally responsible than the Greeks.
I live in Germany.....this is a correct statement. Germans get taxed out the wazzoo....19% sales tax, damned near 45% or thereabouts income tax (sliding scale). TV tax/car tax as paid through a very expensive inspection (TUV) cost ect ect ect..... They're not all that happy about the taxes but they pay them for the most part.
There are a couple areas where German get around the tax man....there is a thriving "black" labor market. Whenever you do landscaping, home improvement ect through a firm you usually can get at least some of the labor "off the books". ie they'll do a portion that's taxed and a portion "on the side" that isn't. (it's so common that's it's pretty much expected to have the labor broken down as such) You also see a bunch of "unfinished" homes because you pay lower property taxes on a house still under construction.
"As Business Insider’s Mike Bird notes, this argument proves utterly baseless. While Germany’s situation in 1945 was comparable to Greece’s today — Germany’s debt was over 200% of its GDP then, Greece’s is 177% of its GDP now — by 1953 the situation was far different.
In 1948, Germany reformed its currency — wiping out approximately 90% of Germany’s cash holdings and deposits. This austerity makes Greece’s recent reforms look like a cakewalk, but it worked."a
Pathetic that some Greeks are trying to make the comparison. One country was recovering from the most devastating war in history. Another is just lazy.
In 1948, Germany reformed its currency — wiping out approximately 90% of Germany’s cash holdings and deposits. This austerity makes Greece’s recent reforms look like a cakewalk, but it worked."a
Pathetic that some Greeks are trying to make the comparison. One country was recovering from the most devastating war in history. Another is just lazy.
I am so glad you brought this up. Do you agree with me we should've never bailed out the banks? A simple yes or no will suffice.
As it turns out, the House actually had to vote twice for the particular bill in which TARP was included. The first vote was on Sept. 29, 2008. The legislation failed to move, though, with 205 representatives voting in favor and 228 against. Of those who voted for the the passage, 140 were Democrats and 65 were Republicans.
A few days later, with the economy worsening, the bill got a second life when Senate members took a completely unrelated piece of legislation that hadn’t much moved anywhere for months and stuffed it with the bailout language. The new bill passed the Senate on Oct. 1, 2008. On that day, 39 Democrats, 34 Republicans and one Independent voted in favor of the legislation.
The House then voted on the TARP language -- for the second time -- two days after the Senate, on Oct. 3, 2008. Ninety-one Republicans joined 172 Democrats in voting for the bill.
86 more Democrats than Republicans voted in favor of the program’s ultimate passage.
A few days later, with the economy worsening, the bill got a second life when Senate members took a completely unrelated piece of legislation that hadn’t much moved anywhere for months and stuffed it with the bailout language. The new bill passed the Senate on Oct. 1, 2008. On that day, 39 Democrats, 34 Republicans and one Independent voted in favor of the legislation.
The House then voted on the TARP language -- for the second time -- two days after the Senate, on Oct. 3, 2008. Ninety-one Republicans joined 172 Democrats in voting for the bill.
86 more Democrats than Republicans voted in favor of the program’s ultimate passage.
In the end, the Greek situation had to end this way, unless they had the balls and resolve to 'go it alone' by withdrawing from the Euro and creating their own new currency with nothing to back it except more IOU's.
To reward Greece's blatant defiance of its obvious fiscal responsibilities with more time or money would promote similar behavior by a host of other countries. International financiers could not allow this.
What is disturbing is that a strong majority of Greek voters gave the current PM the mandate to act so defiantly. Do they think they can simply walk away from the debt they have accumulated? Do they not think there would be consequences to defaulting on their debt? Think of the European creditors they owe like they are the "Iron Bank" in GoT. They will come to collect, one way or the other.
As Judith told Alan Harper in 2.5 Men - "there will be consequences, serious consequences".
The demographics of the vote were telling. Most older people backed austerity because they have pensions and savings to lose. Most younger people with nothing and no economic prospects voted to raise the middle finger.
If this isn't somehow a premonition of what the United States is heading towards, people are kidding themselves. We are going down the exact same path, and it's even worse because we "think" we can just print our currency and nobody will care.
I assume you're kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if you have actually spent time studying the old testament?
I think the OT is horrible, myself. That's "Angry God" stuff, and it contains many conflicting verses and what not. The NT is what the religion of Christianity is all about, in this amateur's opinion.
Yes I'm kidding. Beyond personal interested reading my only formal religious education came in Catholic grade school and a Holstein class at Iowa.
I think it's it interesting how much of Judaism different stripes of Christianity want to hold to. I personally think it makes a lot more sense to view them as different religions with different gods, but I would be in the minority in that view. I personally view Christianity as a pagan religion with multiple god heads. You have the solar hero God in Jesus, the father creator God in Yahweh, the gnostic spirit God in the holy spirt, the tormentor God in Satan and the Mother goddess in Mary. The pantheon gets rounded out with a saint for every occasion. IMO it's only because the church founders used the OT to legitimize Jesus that the OT is kept around.
Taxes = theft. If you cash your paycheck every week at the bank and a man with a gun approaches you and demands 50% of the check. It is theft. It is no different than Academi (formerly Blackwater) lobbying Congressman for more war so taxpayers can fund their company. It is institutionalized theft on a grand scale. When General Motors couldn't fund their employee pensions any longer, just win votes on The Hill to have Joe the Plumber pay for it. These results are achieved at the barrel of a gun should you fail to submit. This is immoral.
To not do anything would have been disastrous for the world and its economy...the US included. It was a "hold your nose" moment. There was not alternative, really. If you think it was the wrong thing to do, so be it. The crisis that would have resulted is damn near incalculable.
The real culprit here was the "big banks." Their bailout was endorsed by R's and D's and signed by President Bush, Jr.
No taxes = no services. That's fine if you and everyone else wants to live like Grizzly Adams, but that is not realistic. I appreciate your utopian ideals, but reality is a b*tch.
Then how did the fedgov raise revenue before 1913 when there was not an income tax? You can cloak your adoration for taxes anyway you want, it's still theft.
Name a successful, sustainable, modern economy that didn't/doesn't raise money via taxes? Don't even bother naming any commie or socialist countries.
There are all kids of taxes. I'm referring to taxing someone's labor.
Why/ How would I name a Commie/Socialist country? Don't they tax their subjects into submission?
Il, quote Fuego for you since you missed it when you first skimmed the thread.
That is not what caused the crisis. It's a concerted effort placed on them by the bankers. They placed them on austerity measures knowing they would have to bend. Then the big boys come in and establish monopolies.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-02/how-greece-has-fallen-victim-economic-hit-men
So if their tax receipts were 90% higher that wouldn't impact their ability to deal with the debt? That doesn't seem very logical.
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