Greece: George Will nails it.................

[86Hawkeye]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420061/greece-default-socialism-doesnt-work

"Since joining the Eurozone in 2001, Greece has borrowed a sum 1.7 times its 2013 GDP. Its 25 percent unemployment (50 percent among young workers) results from a 25 percent shrinkage of GDP. It is a mendicant reduced to hoping to “extend and pretend” forever. But extending the bailout and pretending that creditors will someday be paid encourages other European socialists to contemplate shedding debts — other people’s money that is no longer fun.

Greece, with just 11 million people and 2 percent of the Eurozone’s GDP, is unlikely to cause a contagion by leaving the zone. If it also leaves the misbegotten European Union, this evidence of the EU’s mutability might encourage Britain’s “Euro-skeptics” when, later this year, that nation has a referendum on reclaiming national sovereignty by withdrawing from the EU.

If Greece so cherishes its sovereignty that it bristles at conditions imposed by creditors, why is it in the EU, the perverse point of which is to “pool” nations’ sovereignties in order to dilute national consciousness?"

 

[HawkeyeHitman]

This is what happens when you support Obama or Bernie Sanders.

 

[joelbc1]

Great Britain would be short-sighted and foolish if they withdrew from the EU. They best be concerned about ho;ding on to Scotland.
GB still uses their own money as opposed to the Euro. Banking systems are intertwined to the point ALL banks (worldwide) will take a short term hit, not just those in the EU...but I bet they will find a way to recover nicely.
If there is a country who has the right to bitch about Greece, it's probably Germany.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

reading about Greece and its troubles:sounds like america

 

[dgordo]

reading about Greece and its troubles:sounds like america

Not really, no one in greece pays taxes, in america we pay too many taxes.

 

[INXS83]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420061/greece-default-socialism-doesnt-work

"Since joining the Eurozone in 2001, Greece has borrowed a sum 1.7 times its 2013 GDP. Its 25 percent unemployment (50 percent among young workers) results from a 25 percent shrinkage of GDP. It is a mendicant reduced to hoping to “extend and pretend” forever. But extending the bailout and pretending that creditors will someday be paid encourages other European socialists to contemplate shedding debts — other people’s money that is no longer fun.

Greece, with just 11 million people and 2 percent of the Eurozone’s GDP, is unlikely to cause a contagion by leaving the zone. If it also leaves the misbegotten European Union, this evidence of the EU’s mutability might encourage Britain’s “Euro-skeptics” when, later this year, that nation has a referendum on reclaiming national sovereignty by withdrawing from the EU.

If Greece so cherishes its sovereignty that it bristles at conditions imposed by creditors, why is it in the EU, the perverse point of which is to “pool” nations’ sovereignties in order to dilute national consciousness?"

You could see this coming. The Greeks recently elected a liberal PM to carry the "hell no, we won't pay" message to the EU. I hope their chests burst with pride in their defiance, because their coffers are now empty and the piper is waiting to be paid.

 

[jscott78]

You could see this coming. The Greeks recently elected a liberal PM to carry the "hell no, we won't pay" message to the EU. I hope their chests burst with pride in their defiance, because their coffers are now empty and the piper is waiting to be paid.

Sounds like you are looking forward to another breeding ground for resentments, and hello more terrorists. Good on you.

 

[22*43*51]

Socialism is the way and the light. They're just doing it wrong.

If we give it a shot I'm sure it'll be different...

I'm mean just look at France...err. How about Spain. Oh wait.

How about the former Soviet... crap.

Well, there's nothing wrong with all of our Indian Reservations... Sonofa...

 

[bagdropper]

Welp...when you have one of the most tax corrupt nations in the world, run huge deficits for 30+ years, and then decide not to honor bailout conditions...you kinda get what you deserve.

Paraphrasing wikipedia...they kicked out the right wing military junta govt in 1974 (which was running surpluses), replacing it with a democracy. In order to bring in disenfranchised left leaning people back into the economic mix, they continuously ran large deficits.

Large deficits...poor tax collections...sounds to me like they decided to spend their way into a more diverse economy without a practical end game to the spending. Now a couple generations later, half the country is used to effectively living solely off the government, and therefore wants no changes.

What the heck are the countries controlling the bailout purse strings supposed to do? Keep lending money to someone who refuses to pay it back?

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Welp...when you have one of the most tax corrupt nations in the world, run huge deficits for 30+ years, and then decide not to honor bailout conditions...you kinda get what you deserve.

Paraphrasing wikipedia...they kicked out the right wing military junta govt in 1974 (which was running surpluses), replacing it with a democracy. In order to bring in disenfranchised left leaning people back into the economic mix, they continuously ran large deficits.

Large deficits...poor tax collections...sounds to me like they decided to spend their way into a more diverse economy without a practical end game to the spending. Now a couple generations later, half the country is used to effectively living solely off the government, and therefore wants no changes.

What the heck are the countries controlling the bailout purse strings supposed to do? Keep lending money to someone who refuses to pay it back?

are you sure this was not a piece about the USA??

 

[cigaretteman]

are you sure this was not a piece about the USA??

And, once again, there is absolutely no comparison between Greece and the USA. Any attempt to compare the two demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of international finance.

 

[markfromj]

Not really, no one in greece pays taxes, in america we pay too many taxes.

What is the right number for us to pay?

 

[TexMichFan]

And, once again, there is absolutely no comparison between Greece and the USA. Any attempt to compare the two demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of international finance.

This is how the Greeks reacted to our banking crisis.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

This is how the Greeks reacted to our banking crisis.

yes, I see no comparison at all, ciggy is right. 30 years of bad debt, no tax collections on welfare queens, paying out more than we collect, no, I see nothing.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

What is the right number for us to pay?

if the welfare queens of America are paying too much in taxes, then I'm the king of Syria.

 

[dgordo]

What is the right number for us to pay?

9

 

[aflachawk]

You could see this coming. The Greeks recently elected a liberal PM to carry the "hell no, we won't pay" message to the EU. I hope their chests burst with pride in their defiance, because their coffers are now empty and the piper is waiting to be paid.

They already have a third world economy. Let them leave and they will slip closer

 

[thewop]

In the USA, we need a committed effort to get our house in order, and make sure those receiving entitlements need them because they're unable, and not just receiving them because they're unwilling. These are the types of things that put Greece where they are.

I see no reason why both parties can't get behind that effort.

Get a handle on Unemployment, Medicaid, Food stamps, housing allowances, etc. I'm not saying take them away from people who need them, I'm saying "lets figure out how to make sure they're going only to those who need them" and limit the time those who don't continue receiving them.

I know this isn't an easy issue, but we all know there are people simply taking advantage of the system, and as we grow our debt, lets fix it. For those who pay more attention than me, are any candidates proposing anything along these lines?

BTW - I intentionally left ACA Subsidies off the hit list up there, because 1)The truth comes out in tax returns, and if income is too high, they must be paid back (I'm skeptical this will happen). 2)We don't have a good handle on if/how they're being abused.

 

[hawkeye54545]

It seems like Greece made life for those not wanting to work way too comfortable. I do see similarities here
in that regard. Welfare should be a temporary landing spot for those in need not a career choice with free phones and the like.

 

[moral_victory]

This is what happens when you support Obama or Bernie Sanders.

They will enact right wing austerity measures? Another failed right wing experiment.

 

[INXS83]

Sounds like you are looking forward to another breeding ground for resentments, and hello more terrorists. Good on you.

Glad to know we can always count on you for a good laugh as you spew your lib manifestos.

So, are you saying the EU forgiving or extending Greece's debt will help avoid further terrorism in the region? That, in itself, sounds like financial terrorism (extortion).

 

[Rifler]

What is the right number for us to pay?

The right amount for us to pay in taxes is the exact amount that we can collectively agree upon. 10%, 25% 50% doesn't matter as long as we have agreed on it. The problem isn't how much we pay in taxes, the problem is how much we spend over and above the amount that we have collectively agreed to contribute.....

 

[Pepperman]

They already have a third world economy. Let them leave and they will slip closer

Actually, I think their economy will improve substantially should Greece exit the Euro. Of course, the USD value of any Greek assets would be substantially impaired in the near-term if they re-adopt the Drachma, but economic growth would accelerate once again and a buying opportunity unlike many would present itself for fresh money.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Leave it to Will to jump on the bandwagon of those trying to blame the current government for policies wrought largely by the low tax, corrupt, bank-and-corporate friendly governments of the past. That 25% decline in GDP he mentions was thanks to the austerity assault of the last 5 years. Not socialism since 2001, as Will wants you to believe.

We've talked about this plenty. And sure, Greece had some generous pensions and social programs that may have been more generous than it could afford. But it also had serious revenue-raising issues thanks in significant measure to the refusal of the wealthy class to pay their share.

Couple that with the euro stranglehold where not only couldn't they employ Keynesian policies when they were justified - and even conservative economists recognize that such policies are sometimes justified - but the rules they had to follow were largely engineered by German banks, and you don't have a recipe for success.

Only a small part of that has anything to do with the dreaded S-word that scares Will so much and that the GOP has wielded with red scare fervor for a while now.

This crude and largely phony distortion is what you hear on US news and also, I'm sorry to say, what you hear on European news. It's not truth, it's propaganda.

Greece is probably going to have to leave the euro. Whether it does or not, Europe, the banks, and the IMF are going to brutalize it. That's to defend the banks and warn other nations against thinking they might be better off going the same route. If Greece gets away with this, Podesta in Spain gets a huge bump in the polls. And if Spain goes down this path, Italy may be next. Greece is puny but those nations aren't.

 

[86Hawkeye]

The Greeks have been voting themselves the keys to their own and the EU countries' treasuries for a very long time,

The chickens have come home to roost, and it IS about the failure of socialism.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Aren't Greece and Puerto Rico just following the liberal utopia model that liberal Dems, like Obama, Clinton, Sanders, wish to bestow on this country?

 

[86Hawkeye]

Aren't Greece and Puerto Rico just following the liberal utopia model that liberal Dems, like Obama, Clinton, Sanders, wish to bestow on this country?

Yes.

 

[lucas80]

reading about Greece and its troubles:sounds like america

Not even close when you compare the banking systems between the US and Greece, especially when you consider how debt is secured.
This really goes back to when Greece was allowed into the EU. The member nations should have been more selective, and structured things differently. They should have allowed for a system of tiers for some of the weaker nations to integrate more efficiently. The one thing they shouldn't have done is allow the weaker nations to borrow like a strong one such as Germany.

 

[Pepperman]

Just curious Lucas, do you think Mississippi should get the same interest rate and currency as, say, Wisconsin? Does California deserve the same as Nebraska? But yet, it works for a reason I will explain....

What this Greek (and the other PIIGS) controversy is really all about is how one can share a currency, or FISCAL UNION without sharing political unity. In other words, would you ever agree to share a checking account with your neighbors - everybody puts in what they can and takes out what they want? When Germans have to work until 65 and Greeks can retire at 50, you can't share the same currency because you have no political agreements about when to tap the checking account, and when to keep contributing to it.

 

[gusto79]

9