Greg Kerkvliet

[slushhead]

Here you go:

Anthony Cassar (Not ranked): National Champion
Matt Brown (73): National Champion
Frank Molinaro (68): National Champion; Olympian
Dan Vallimont (NR): National Finalist
Jordan Conway (NR): 2x AA
James English (NR): AA

Your turn, now start of list of Iowa guys under Brands that have overachieved in relation their ranking with their highest result and we'll compare. Oh heck, let me just do it for you, Dan Dennis & Montell Marian (Finalist).

*Rankings provided by D1CW

Another metric that has been cited multiple times in the past is the average outperformance of seed at Nationals, where PSU guys have excelled. I don't have time this morning to dig around for the prior analysis or do the math myself, but maybe someone does. Performance when it counts most is a psychological skill that should be included in the "development" equation. Should people really want to debate whether Cael and staff develop their guys, that is.

 

[Mattski]

What did Cael promise Spencer Lee? Serious question. Spencer was a great wrestler at a weight with a great need for PSU. If anyone was promised what you insinuate, it would be Spencer.

Likely a full ride as anyone seriously in on Spencer would have. The issue is on 9.9 there's only so many of those to go around. It's the other "creative" ways of offsetting the difference between partials via other compensation I think most realize psu has done a good job of taking advantage of.

 

[pablow]

Can you please stop obsessing about us? This is a Hawkeye board.

Ok - how's this. In the past 50 years only CA has outperformed the state of Iowa in freestyle medals.

Here you go:

Anthony Cassar (Not ranked): National Champion
Matt Brown (73): National Champion
Frank Molinaro (68): National Champion; Olympian
Dan Vallimont (NR): National Finalist
Jordan Conway (NR): 2x AA
James English (NR): AA

Your turn, now start of list of Iowa guys under Brands that have overachieved in relation their ranking with their highest result and we'll compare. Oh heck, let me just do it for you, Dan Dennis & Montell Marian (Finalist).

*Rankings provided by D1CW

I'd say it's more accurate to categorize Cassar, Brown, Molinaro, and Marion as sleepers. Very athletic and talented late bloomers. Sort of like Aaron Rodgers or Kurt Warner in football. I'd certainly agree that Conway and English were impressively developed. Dennis falls in that category too.

Cael has done a good job managing and developing his middle and upper weights and Brands has done the same in the lower weights. All and all, Rob Koll is right there too.

I don't think anyone coaching today can touch Gable though.

 

[IRONBIRD]

Another metric that has been cited multiple times in the past is the average outperformance of seed at Nationals, where PSU guys have excelled. I don't have time this morning to dig around for the prior analysis or do the math myself, but maybe someone does. Performance when it counts most is a psychological skill that should be included in the "development" equation. Should people really want to debate whether Cael and staff develop their guys, that is.

Someone will have to proved the IOWA stats but I am guessing it would far exceed this. The out performing seeds is not a great argument as we have clearly seen how the seeding at NCAA's has gone. Just look at the Bulls seed this past year.

Your first three guys may have had a little extra help in becoming champs also.

 

[Jackhawk87]

What did Cael promise Spencer Lee? Serious question. Spencer was a great wrestler at a weight with a great need for PSU. If anyone was promised what you insinuate, it would be Spencer.

I would guess that it is in the 3 inch binder. There seems to be some code that prevents Brands or Spencer going to the NCAA with that information - and that information in the NCAA’s hands may also poison the waters for all of NCAA wrestling and RTCs. When the NCAA saw how the rules are being abused, they could ban paying college wrestlers for participating in wrestling camps or ban them from participating at all. They could ban colleges from having RTCs at all and limit them to regional RTCs with no college associations. Nobody wants to ruin USA wrestling just because some are bending/breaking the rules.

I have a feeling there are many out there that know how some are bending/breaking the rules, but they aren’t about to expose them for the above reasons. Many coaches and those in the know (including Brands) insinuate that others are playing on an uneven field. PSU fans say it is just jealously and there is no proof. I would guess there are many people with plenty of proof out there - just none that are willing to present that information and kill the sport they love.

 

[OldestandGreatest]

I would guess there are many people with plenty of proof out there - just none that are willing to present that information and kill the sport they love.

This. The NWCA conference was shot across the bows to the more egregious offenders. Get some clear rules in place now regarding regional training centers.

 

[HawkeyePA]

as much as you guys HATE the trolls ....now you get a mere GLIMPSE of everyday living here... ..i guess as i always say...Thank God that Cael invented wrestling and recruiting because nobody else ever dd it before him...and to even attend a PSU match...well thats a rare treat because EVERY FAN in the stands was a former state champion...or would have been if it wasnt for their knee or coach or some other lame ass excuse...and they all PERSONALLY KNOW the PSU team guys because they chat with them online..... i personally know a guy who never misses a single function and pays huge donations to be on the inside track...has even been to dinner with Cael before ...for learning sessions...and this guy never stepped on a wrestling mat r in a wrestling room until 5 or 6 years ago and he was enamored with the winning...so he bought his way into the wrestling scene...now he is an EXPERT... and he even coaches kids at clinics when alumni wrestlers go for the summer...and in reality...this guy may know terms and people...but he doesnt know squat when it comes to wrestling... okay rat for the day is over.. Go Hawks !!

 

[MVPFAN]

as much as you guys HATE the trolls ....now you get a mere GLIMPSE of everyday living here... ..i guess as i always say...Thank God that Cael invented wrestling and recruiting because nobody else ever dd it before him...and to even attend a PSU match...well thats a rare treat because EVERY FAN in the stands was a former state champion...or would have been if it wasnt for their knee or coach or some other lame ass excuse...and they all PERSONALLY KNOW the PSU team guys because they chat with them online..... i personally know a guy who never misses a single function and pays huge donations to be on the inside track...has even been to dinner with Cael before ...for learning sessions...and this guy never stepped on a wrestling mat r in a wrestling room until 5 or 6 years ago and he was enamored with the winning...so he bought his way into the wrestling scene...now he is an EXPERT... and he even coaches kids at clinics when alumni wrestlers go for the summer...and in reality...this guy may know terms and people...but he doesnt know squat when it comes to wrestling... okay rat for the day is over.. Go Hawks !!

Sounds like a Dupont clone.

 

[jrod65]

Another metric that has been cited multiple times in the past is the average outperformance of seed at Nationals, where PSU guys have excelled. I don't have time this morning to dig around for the prior analysis or do the math myself, but maybe someone does. Performance when it counts most is a psychological skill that should be included in the "development" equation. Should people really want to debate whether Cael and staff develop their guys, that is.

Slush,

I have some time to kill, so I did some "surface level" researching. Here's what I found:

I only looked for AA's placing higher than seeds and found that since 2011, PSU has had exactly 1 more wrestler finish above seed(and on the podium) than the Hawks during the same timeframe.

I went a little deeper and assigned 1 point per spot above rank(ex: 4 seed placing 1st gets 3 points) and found that Iowa had the overall higher "overplacement" during that time period, by 2 points. I didn't include James English because honestly, I didn't know how to score that as he was the only wrestler that was unseeded to AA. I suppose to be fair, I should give 10 points and put PSU in the lead.

So, over a 9 year period, PSU has had 1 more wrestler finish above seed, and a small margin lead(8 placement points).

Short story is that there was very little difference between starting seeds and over-performance between the two teams. The biggest(and most obvious) difference was starting seed of the wrestlers.

 

[slushhead]

Slush,

I have some time to kill, so I did some "surface level" researching. Here's what I found:

I only looked for AA's placing higher than seeds and found that since 2011, PSU has had exactly 1 more wrestler finish above seed(and on the podium) than the Hawks during the same timeframe.

I went a little deeper and assigned 1 point per spot above rank(ex: 4 seed placing 1st gets 3 points) and found that Iowa had the overall higher "overplacement" during that time period, by 2 points. I didn't include James English because honestly, I didn't know how to score that as he was the only wrestler that was unseeded to AA. I suppose to be fair, I should give 10 points and put PSU in the lead.

So, over a 9 year period, PSU has had 1 more wrestler finish above seed, and a small margin lead(8 placement points).

Short story is that there was very little difference between starting seeds and over-performance between the two teams. The biggest(and most obvious) difference was starting seed of the wrestlers.

Thanks -- I'll take you at your word and owe you a cold one if we ever happen to meet.

On your last note, I'll assume starting seed was higher for PSU? Because that has always been part of the discussion in how one interprets the "outperformance" metric. Conceptually, it is more difficult to place well above a high seed than a low seed . . . e.g., when a 3-seed, the ceiling on outperformance is only 2 spots versus, say, a 7-seed having a ceiling of 6. Like with the English example, it takes only a couple of really low-seeded (or unseeded) guys to make the podium and really skew the final number (if one applies a linear scoring scheme). A sliding scale based on starting seed may be appropriate -- just don't ask me how to do it.

Ultimately, though, I'm not trying to debate whether PSU develops guys better than does Iowa. Just disagreeing with any notion that PSU's development of guys is zero to negligible. Both teams develop guys pretty well.

 

[jrod65]

Thanks -- I'll take you at your word and owe you a cold one if we ever happen to meet.

Just swing by section GG in Carver this year. I'll be wearing a Hawkeye shirt, should be easy to spot.

Might I recommend January 31st?

 

[24 so far]

Not anytime soon, Iowa's HS level still gets an occasional stud but overall has not been in the discussion vs PA for D1 AA talent I'm sorry to say. I do think with clubs getting better it is on the rise though. HS meets I have seen recently even compared to 15-20 years ago have been dog crap.

I'm aware, but these things go in cycles, and Iowa is still very much a Wrestling State, so it's just a matter of time. Honestly we're only talking about say 5 "studs" that would make all the difference, and they don't have to be from the same class.

2 Brands, an Ironside, a Zalesky or 2, a Juergens, a Davis or an Alger and you're off and running. Throw in Fullhart or a Zaputil and a McGuiness and a Weber for shits and giggles.

Iowa State had some pretty tough Iowa kids at those times too. It will happen, just a matter of when.

 

[WPB_lion]

What evidence do you have that PSU has out developed Iowa? When you recruit a consensus #1 world beater, isn't he pretty far along already? Iowa got one in Spencer Lee. PSU has a whole lineup of them.

In 2015 PSU decided to RS Megaludis and Retherford, even though both were already high level AA's. They went with backups, and what happened? They came in 6th.

When PSU inserts non top tier guys, they struggle, like so much of the rest of the d1 world.

Out-recruited, yes. Out developed, no.

In grading coaches, the only thing that matters is end results. As a Penn State fan, I am happy with the results.

As to whether Cael is able to develop wrestlers, he would not be able to recruit as well as he does if wrestlers weren't developing under his tutelage. The best wrestlers in the country apparently believe their best chance of success is with Cael / PSU. See Snyder as a recent example. The fact that the top wrestlers year after year want to come to PSU is the best indicator (rather than opinions of posters on a message board) that Cael is developing talent.

 

[bnicolls]

So the donor gave Cael 5 mil to get around NCAA rules, then told you ? Criminal masterminds

As I put in my original post, yes. And more. I was not the only one there, another PSU supporter was at this lunch.

 

[bnicolls]

How is TF's statement BS? PSU won in 2011, 2012, and 2013 with Cael at the helm. Cael signed on with PSU in April 2009. Yet the $5 million doesn't show up on the financials until 2014. How exactly did the donor "recruit Cael" by making a donation 5 years after he was hired and had already secured 3 titles? Weird to deny the winning preceded the donation.



In typical fashion, Mr. Positivity making his presence known when there is something negative to say about PSU.

Slushy

PSU booster recruited Cael

Paid for the new facility (11 years old now or whatever)

Funded the Club prior to the 5 million in 08 or 9.

The formula has been there for some time. Are you clear now, or do I need to type slower?

 

[slushhead]

Slushy

PSU booster recruited Cael

Paid for the new facility (11 years old now or whatever)

Funded the Club prior to the 5 million in 08 or 9.

The formula has been there for some time. Are you clear now, or do I need to type slower?

I think you need to check your timeline, or else tell us what new facility you are talking about. Ground broke on the "new" Lorenzo Wrestling Complex in 2005. Cael wasn't even head coach at ISU, yet.

Or are you talking about the addition of hot tubs and a sauna in 2016?

Allow me to type something slowly for you . . .

The root of the dispute between FT and @eihawk was the $5-mil donation . . . FT noted that PSU's winning preceded that donation . . . You called BS on that and brought facilities into the topic . . . I seconded FT's factual statement that the winning preceded the $5-mil donation, providing dates to substatiate it . . . You repeat yourself about the donor paying for a facility and, for who-knows-what-reason, try to link it to him recruiting Cael.

Whether the donor recruited Cael with incentives is not germane to what was in dispute -- the influence of the $5-mil donation on the college wrestling landscape. The $5-mil didn't come until after Cael was 4 years into his stint with PSU and had led the team to 3 titles. That's not BS, and it's not disputable.

If you want to say the donor recruited Cael with a $5-mil carrot, be my guest, as I can't confirm it to be true or false. But it would be consistent with winning bringing in money, because the carrot was not awarded until the winning had become established.

 

[bnicolls]

I think you need to check your timeline, or else tell us what new facility you are talking about. Ground broke on the "new" Lorenzo Wrestling Complex in 2005. Cael wasn't even head coach at ISU, yet.

Or are you talking about the addition of hot tubs and a sauna in 2016?

Allow me to type something slowly for you . . .

The root of the dispute between FT and @eihawk was the $5-mil donation . . . FT noted that PSU's winning preceded that donation . . . You called BS on that and brought facilities into the topic . . . I seconded FT's factual statement that the winning preceded the $5-mil donation, providing dates to substatiate it . . . You repeat yourself about the donor paying for a facility and, for who-knows-what-reason, try to link it to him recruiting Cael.

Whether the donor recruited Cael with incentives is not germane to what was in dispute -- the influence of the $5-mil donation on the college wrestling landscape. The $5-mil didn't come until after Cael was 4 years into his stint with PSU and had led the team to 3 titles. That's not BS, and it's not disputable.

If you want to say the donor recruited Cael with a $5-mil carrot, be my guest, as I can't confirm it to be true or false. But it would be consistent with winning bringing in money, because the carrot was not awarded until the winning had become established.

Dude

I'm not into the "the history of PSU". One guy has funded everything and recruited Caley to the place. I've said before he's a good guy who wants PSU to win. However, the slush fund is fully under your coachs control and it's been used in ways that expand schollies.

Go ahead and write a book on what happened when. But when you get to who provided the dough, keep typing the same name

Have at it Stud

 

[SASHmoney]

Just swing by section GG in Carver this year. I'll be wearing a Hawkeye shirt, should be easy to spot.

Might I recommend January 31st?

You guys should go deeper and factor in high school rankings in the equation.

high school rankings-NCAA rankings-ncaa final placement

 

[slushhead]

Dude

I'm not into the "the history of PSU". One guy has funded everything and recruited Caley to the place. I've said before he's a good guy who wants PSU to win. However, the slush fund is fully under your coachs control and it's been used in ways that expand schollies.

Go ahead and write a book on what happened when. But when you get to who provided the dough, keep typing the same name

Have at it Stud

I accept your retraction.

 

[slushhead]

You guys should go deeper and factor in high school rankings in the equation.

high school rankings-NCAA rankings-ncaa final placement

Appreciate the thought. I actually am considerig looking at and compiling some numbers this weekend, though I am wary of HS rankings.

 

[nearfall2]

Sounds to me like the big donar was giving $250,000ish a year for the first 4 years then decided to give the $5,000,000 so that recruits would know the program is endowed and the slush fund would be there when they graduated.

 

[bnicolls]

I accept your retraction.

Whatever makes you feel better.........I'm here for you

 

[rossel 33]

The root of the dispute between FT and @eihawk was the $5-mil donation . . . FT noted that PSU's winning preceded that donation . . . You called BS on that and brought facilities into the topic . . . I seconded FT's factual statement that the winning preceded the $5-mil donation, providing dates to substatiate it . . . You repeat yourself about the donor paying for a facility and, for who-knows-what-reason, try to link it to him recruiting Cael.

...... But it would be consistent with winning bringing in money, because the carrot was not awarded until the winning had become established.

And FT rants ad nauseum about 'Brands' 3 ncaa team championships shouldn't count because he combined 2 teams.'

So when Cael wins early on after Taylor, Cyler, Matt Brown baled on ISU and went to PSU, followed by the troubled Andrew Long's transfer from ISU to PSU.... does that logic of discrediting wins not apply? Is it only applicable when Brands left VT?

 

[Flying_Tiger]

As usual you ignore the facts. Taylor was not a transfer, he was never enrolled at ISU. Cyler graduated, Long got the boot and Brown was a backup so Penn State won it's second championship under Sanderson without any transfers. That's it, end of discussion, there is no debate, it's a fact.

 

[HawkeyePA]

just wondering....with such a tight team race that season...without LONG'S point at Nationals does PSU beat Iowa for the team title?? and didnt PSU administration infact waive some time requirements for Long so he could join the squad and wrestle immediately for PSU >?? he also was in trouble that semester academically and then the whole rape charges and disciplinary actions that followed the season....he was like a rental free agent for Nationals.

 

[TarpHawk]

This is an awfully long-winded thread that dances, bobs, and weaves around the fundamental issue, which is, when is the last time we won an NCAA title. Hopefully the answer will be 2020 or 2021.

The underlying efforts to justify why we haven't, or why others have, or to associate rivals with illegal activities or pedophilia, or to move the goalposts to some other arcane stat like attendance, is just noise.

There's only one measure of success, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[AFHawk86]

This is an awfully long-winded thread that dances, bobs, and weaves around the fundamental issue, which is, when is the last time we won an NCAA title. Hopefully the answer will be 2020 or 2021.

The underlying efforts to justify why we haven't, or why others have, or to associate rivals with illegal activities or pedophilia, or to move the goalposts to some other arcane stat like attendance, is just noise.

There's only one measure of success, as far as I'm concerned.

Just win baby!

 

[bnicolls]

This is an awfully long-winded thread that dances, bobs, and weaves around the fundamental issue, which is, when is the last time we won an NCAA title. Hopefully the answer will be 2020 or 2021.

The underlying efforts to justify why we haven't, or why others have, or to associate rivals with illegal activities or pedophilia, or to move the goalposts to some other arcane stat like attendance, is just noise.

There's only one measure of success, as far as I'm concerned.

No one is excusing the fact that changes had to be made. Several years ago that began to happen. However, while some things can be changed overnight, others take time. We are now seeing the fruition of those changes with the lineup this year and the next few.

PSU blather/boasting/braggarts on this site stokes the flames in threads like this. As I've stated numerous times, I have no issue with their main donor, the fact they want to win (like us and everyone else), their facility or even their slush fund. But let's call it correct on how that fund is used. When their main man describes what's been done, it's fact not fiction, whether PSU boasters here want to admit it or not.

We are going to beat their ass anyway. Took time, but that was then and this is now.

 

[MVPFAN]

just wondering....with such a tight team race that season...without LONG'S point at Nationals does PSU beat Iowa for the team title?? and didnt PSU administration infact waive some time requirements for Long so he could join the squad and wrestle immediately for PSU >?? he also was in trouble that semester academically and then the whole rape charges and disciplinary actions that followed the season....he was like a rental free agent for Nationals.

Cornell would have been champs that year if PSU had not brought Long in at semester.

 

[just_somebody]

As usual you ignore the facts. Taylor was not a transfer, he was never enrolled at ISU. Cyler graduated, Long got the boot and Brown was a backup so Penn State won it's second championship under Sanderson without any transfers. That's it, end of discussion, there is no debate, it's a fact.

Hate to get involved in this, but drawing some big,meaningful line in 'transfer' between signing a NLI and enrolling is silly (or to quote Cosmo Kramer: "Capricious and arbitrary"). DT still had to be granted release from ISU.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

So back to Kerk. Anyone find it odd he hasnt just came out and said PSU yet? Seems a bit obvi.

Anyone getting the feeling he and Sokol are now a package deal?

 

[Neo_Hawk]

So back to Kerk. Anyone find it odd he hasnt just came out and said PSU yet? Seems a bit obvi.

Anyone getting the feeling he and Sokol are now a package deal?

Kerk is a great wrestling prospect, but I would hope it's obvious to another top level guy like Sokol that Kerk has a hard time making up his mind. He's either verbal'd or will have signed with 4 different teams before he ever wrestles a college match. Not sure this is the leader I would be tying my future to, but you never know.

I want kids representing Iowa that want to be here. If Sokol is that kid, great, if not, I wish success and happiness wherever he lands.

 

[edquinn06]

So back to Kerk. Anyone find it odd he hasnt just came out and said PSU yet? Seems a bit obvi.

Anyone getting the feeling he and Sokol are now a package deal?

Package deal to me would mean same class. These guys are two years apart, but I get what ur saying.

 

[robchawk]

Package deal to me would mean same class. These guys are two years apart, but I get what ur saying.

All Cael and PSU have proven is if you live where the recruits are and throw money at the sport you will be successful. Look at PSU hockey as well.
Most recruits in all sports stay within a 200 mile radius of their home town.
This is all sports, How many people live within 200 miles of PSU vs Iowa?
I will give you that Iowa HS wrestling seems to be down a little on the top end side. So that hurts but

 

[SansSouci]

Any open-minded person would agree that winning attracts top talent.

I remember when you were cool and not troll. Go away.

 

[NeedMoreIronside]

As usual you ignore the facts. Taylor was not a transfer, he was never enrolled at ISU. Cyler graduated, Long got the boot and Brown was a backup so Penn State won it's second championship under Sanderson without any transfers. That's it, end of discussion, there is no debate, it's a fact.

True or false, did Taylor not have to get an official release from ISU to "transfer" to Penn St? Regardless, this is all semantics as both scenarios are almost identical. Sanderson left and Long, Taylor, Brown and lil bro all followed after. Much like the Va-Tech kids followed Tom. When Bael arrived he inherited Wright and Ruth from previous PSU classes. You can deflect all you want, but if you are going to discredit Iowa's 3 championships, you are ultimately discrediting PSU first few as well

 

[minnhawkeye]

Hawks win the Big Ten if Penn State did not have Long that year his points won that for them .

 

[slushhead]

I remember when you were cool and not troll. Go away.

I remember when I could tune in here ~10:30 ET nightly for your regular whiskey rants and be entertained. Your predictable schedule has been, well, unpredictable the past 9 months or so. No longer cool.

But seriously, I have trouble knowing when you're serious. If the health scare is legit, just count me as another guy pulling for you. Be well.

 

[MitchLL]

Speaking of Andrew Long.........anyone know where he's at these days?

 

[el dub]

I remember when I could tune in here ~10:30 ET nightly for your regular whiskey rants and be entertained. Your predictable schedule has been, well, unpredictable the past 9 months or so. No longer cool.

But seriously, I have trouble knowing when you're serious. If the health scare is legit, just count me as another guy pulling for you. Be well.

Dude, I can pull for him while not taking anything he says seriously. It’s called multitasking.