Guns - staunch 2nd Amendment posters, help me

[thewop]

I do not understand Republicans resistance to real, common sense gun legislation. It seems there are plenty of small, reasonable steps that could be taken that don't threaten to "take all the guns away." I certainly understand that you don't want to go down a "slippery slope" that leads to over-regulation, but with full control of both chambers and the WH, nothing extreme can pass now anyway.

I see no downside to republicans giving some on this issue. Why not have a comprehensive bill that takes into account not only gun control, but also steps that can be taken to prevent further school shootings (explore mandatory, specific security measures for DOE schools, certain counseling programs implemented in classrooms, other measures to be debated).

Help me understand. I don't support 'taking all your guns,' but why would it not be a win for R's to give a little?

 

[IsaacHarrison]

I do not understand Republicans resistance to real, common sense gun legislation. It seems there are plenty of small, reasonable steps that could be taken that don't threaten to "take all the guns away." I certainly understand that you don't want to go down a "slippery slope" that leads to over-regulation, but with full control of both chambers and the WH, nothing extreme can pass now anyway.

I see no downside to republicans giving some on this issue. Why not have a comprehensive bill that takes into account not only gun control, but also steps that can be taken to prevent further school shootings (explore mandatory, specific security measures for DOE schools, certain counseling programs implemented in classrooms, other measures to be debated).

Help me understand. I don't support 'taking all your guns,' but why would it not be a win for R's to give a little?

I thought a lot about all this over the weekend. Ill first state that I don't have a strong stance either way. I don't own guns, yet I understand that gun control only controls the guns from those who obey. Do away with assault rifles, I don't really care.

However, why don't we as a society look at ourselves and ask, "Where have we went wrong?" Growing up, we never had this sort of thing happen. I would guess the number of guns hasn't really changed from when I was a kid. This is just a guess. If true, why would we first point to guns when the number of guns remain relatively constant, while school shootings are climbing through the roof? From a scientific approach it doesn't make sense. I get it, it is much easier to point to guns as the problem as it is a much easier fix.

 

[Rudolph]

My understanding is most people want pretty much the same thing—people meaning everyday Americans, including NRA members. The NRA brass it appears don't want anything that could negatively affect sales in any way, despite claiming to not be representing the interests of those who benefit from gun sales (manufacturers). Now, the whole thing about Russian interests funneling money to support GOP through NRA is a helluva story, but I digress.

Alas this whole issue has now become part of the Right's identity politics. Anything that chips away at this part of its identity is met with predictable resistance.

It's a shame we're in this place now where even when we agree, we choose to disagree. It's like observing a completely dysfunctional marriage. And we're all married to each other, like it or not.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

NRA money which it is now coming out, is also russian money.

 

[thewop]

However, why don't we as a society look at ourselves and ask, "Where have we went wrong?"

I completely agree. To me, this is what the "other" piece of the same legislation would attempt to address in schools, and potentially within society at large. I feel like there are a couple of things we can do with guns, and what it takes to obtain one, but that there are societal issues that are the true cause of the rise in violence (could be anything from desensitization to acts of violence, to fewer stable households, to the 'fame' these shooters get by committing terrible acts. You're right, guns are the "easy" target, and beyond that, it seems there are some difficult issues that we need to wrestle with and attempt to address.

 

[SotaHawk87]

I completely agree. To me, this is what the "other" piece of the same legislation would attempt to address in schools, and potentially within society at large. I feel like there are a couple of things we can do with guns, and what it takes to obtain one, but that there are societal issues that are the true cause of the rise in violence (could be anything from desensitization to acts of violence, to fewer stable households, to the 'fame' these shooters get by committing terrible acts. You're right, guns are the "easy" target, and beyond that, it seems there are some difficult issues that we need to wrestle with and attempt to address.

I think taking God out of as much as possible has a lot to do with it. I dont expect anybody who isnt a believer to be on the same page as me and that's totally fine but the moral decay of our society is more prevalent now than ever.. That's also not me saying this is Christian vs non Christian as the church has been a big part of the problem as well..

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I do not understand Republicans resistance to real, common sense gun legislation. It seems there are plenty of small, reasonable steps that could be taken that don't threaten to "take all the guns away." I certainly understand that you don't want to go down a "slippery slope" that leads to over-regulation, but with full control of both chambers and the WH, nothing extreme can pass now anyway.

I see no downside to republicans giving some on this issue. Why not have a comprehensive bill that takes into account not only gun control, but also steps that can be taken to prevent further school shootings (explore mandatory, specific security measures for DOE schools, certain counseling programs implemented in classrooms, other measures to be debated).

Help me understand. I don't support 'taking all your guns,' but why would it not be a win for R's to give a little?

I will be glad to have a real conversation with someone on this subject, but I have had bad experiences trying to do so on this site because inevitably one or more fools immediately radically distort what has been said and wreck the conversation with nonsense and childish, emotional outbursts. (It happened again as recently as last night FWIW.)

The other "trap" that I see is people chant for "common sense gun control", but offer little, if any, specifics as to what that would really mean. The phrase "common sense" has many possible meanings to otherwise well meaning people. Let's not talk in generalities if we really want to solve something, let's get specific AND also carefully examine unintended consequences of new regs or laws AND let's be sure that the potential new regs actually accomplish something v. just "doing something".

I own many guns and totally support the rights of others to do the same. I also seriously distrust many who talk about gun control. So I am probably in your "target audience" here.

Yet, NO ONE I know is comfortable when innocent lives are taken, however rare a school shooting situation might be. So what can be done?

 

[SotaHawk87]

I will be glad to have a real conversation with someone on this subject, but I have had bad experiences trying to do so on this site because inevitably one or more fools immediately radically distort what has been said and wreck the conversation with nonsense and childish, emotional outbursts. (It happened again as recently as last night FWIW.)

The other "trap" that I see is people chant for "common sense gun control", but offer little, if any, specifics as to what that would really mean. The phrase "common sense" has many possible meanings to otherwise well meaning people. Let's not talk in generalities if we really want to solve something, let's get specific AND also carefully examine unintended consequences of new regs or laws AND let's be sure that the potential new regs actually accomplish something v. just "doing something".

I own many guns and totally support the rights of others to do the same. I also seriously distrust many who talk about gun control. So I am probably in your "target audience" here.

Yet, NO ONE I know is comfortable when innocent lives are taken, however rare a school shooting situation might be. So what can be done?

I'm probably more on your side but would like to hear more.. I think a good starting point is..

Is there anyone on here opposed to stricter back grounds checks and the banning of assault rifles such as the AR-15? Could we keep those guns locked up at shooting ranges so they are available for people to still use in a controlled environment? I'll admit I'm not a gun enthusiast so I dont know all the angles of why people think we need those.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I thought a lot about all this over the weekend. Ill first state that I don't have a strong stance either way. I don't own guns, yet I understand that gun control only controls the guns from those who obey. Do away with assault rifles, I don't really care.

However, why don't we as a society look at ourselves and ask, "Where have we went wrong?" Growing up, we never had this sort of thing happen. I would guess the number of guns hasn't really changed from when I was a kid. This is just a guess. If true, why would we first point to guns when the number of guns remain relatively constant, while school shootings are climbing through the roof? From a scientific approach it doesn't make sense. I get it, it is much easier to point to guns as the problem as it is a much easier fix.

Manufacturing of guns has been steadily climbing for 10 years, from 2010 to 2013 the number of guns being made in America almost doubled with the lion's share staying here(this includes law enforcement, but not the military). There are definitely more guns in America now than there ever have been.

The most interesting stat I found is that while the total number of firearms is up the number of households with firearms continues to drop.

 

[bdcolt45er]

I completely agree. To me, this is what the "other" piece of the same legislation would attempt to address in schools, and potentially within society at large. I feel like there are a couple of things we can do with guns, and what it takes to obtain one, but that there are societal issues that are the true cause of the rise in violence (could be anything from desensitization to acts of violence, to fewer stable households, to the 'fame' these shooters get by committing terrible acts. You're right, guns are the "easy" target, and beyond that, it seems there are some difficult issues that we need to wrestle with and attempt to address.

Generally speaking violent crime has declined significantly over the last 25 years.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I thought a lot about all this over the weekend. Ill first state that I don't have a strong stance either way. I don't own guns, yet I understand that gun control only controls the guns from those who obey. Do away with assault rifles, I don't really care.

However, why don't we as a society look at ourselves and ask, "Where have we went wrong?" Growing up, we never had this sort of thing happen. I would guess the number of guns hasn't really changed from when I was a kid. This is just a guess. If true, why would we first point to guns when the number of guns remain relatively constant, while school shootings are climbing through the roof? From a scientific approach it doesn't make sense. I get it, it is much easier to point to guns as the problem as it is a much easier fix.

I certainly agree there are some society issues at play here, but I'm not sure we're going to put the cat back in the bag on those.

I'm 100% convinced that the internet is a major issue at play here. My view is that people with crazy revenge plans like rampage shootings they usually let off some flags someplace. In the past the only place you could let off flags was with real people who knew you, who might tell you that you are crazy or talk you out of it. They might even try to get you help.

But now you can get on the internet and look up people who have some similar views to you. Basically they are all crazy to some extent. Some just more- so then others. And there is no one there to call you crazy. There are echo chambers all over the internet for some people who are very dangerous to everyone. And no one there is going to tell them they are nuts. And echo chambers like this tend to push out the less extreme and more moderate people.

We're not going to put that genie back in the bottle.

There is also something to be said for broken families. We're just not willing to put that genie back in the bottle. While conservatives might note that these kids all come from broken families, they like the liberals have no desire to actually do something about that. Otherwise they never would have selected a man who's already broken up 2 families as their nominee for president.

Our country likes it's easy divorce laws. There could be a school shooting every day and every single one could come from broken homes and we'd never walk back on easy divorce.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

NRA money which it is now coming out, is also russian money.

bullcrap. you guys and the Russia fantasies

 

[ottumwan in tx]

here is the deal, you guys don't blame the AAA for illegal street drag racing and car deaths

 

[bdcolt45er]

Manufacturing of guns has been steadily climbing for 10 years, from 2010 to 2013 the number of guns being made in America almost doubled with the lion's share staying here(this includes law enforcement, but not the military). There are definitely more guns in America now than there ever have been.

The most interesting stat I found is that while the total number of firearms is up the number of households with firearms continues to drop.

Basically there are fewer gun owning households but those who do have guns are keeping multiple weapons. The average gun owner has 8 weapons. I think this stat is skewed pretty significantly by collectors.

 

[SotaHawk87]

here is the deal, you guys don't blame the AAA for illegal street drag racing and car deaths

I do!! Adamantly against AAA and their Russian money!!

 

[IsaacHarrison]

Basically there are fewer gun owning households but those who do have guns are keeping multiple weapons. The average gun owner has 8 weapons. I think this stat is skewed pretty significantly by collectors.

Id rather see 1 guy with 8 guns, than 8 people with 1 gun.

 

[stout1]

The most interesting stat I found is that while the total number of firearms is up the number of households with firearms continues to drop.

I didn't grow up with guns in my parent's house, but I grew up around guns.

It was rare for the people I grew up with to have more than 4 or 5 guns in their house when I was a kid (graduated HS in 1995).

Today, I know many people (people from the range, friends from childhood, family) that have a couple dozen guns in their house. I have one friend that has nearly 50 (at last count after he purged out some he wasn't using) firearms. Some hold sentimental value (he has the first shotgun that his grandfather bought for him, he has his other grandfather's deer rifle, etc), but it is not out of the ordinary for him to buy a couple of guns on a whim because he "got a good deal".

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

bullcrap. you guys and the Russia fantasies

this is the only russian fantasy i have:

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I will be glad to have a real conversation with someone on this subject, but I have had bad experiences trying to do so on this site because inevitably one or more fools immediately radically distort what has been said and wreck the conversation with nonsense and childish, emotional outbursts. (It happened again as recently as last night FWIW.)

The other "trap" that I see is people chant for "common sense gun control", but offer little, if any, specifics as to what that would really mean. The phrase "common sense" has many possible meanings to otherwise well meaning people. Let's not talk in generalities if we really want to solve something, let's get specific AND also carefully examine unintended consequences of new regs or laws AND let's be sure that the potential new regs actually accomplish something v. just "doing something".

I own many guns and totally support the rights of others to do the same. I also seriously distrust many who talk about gun control. So I am probably in your "target audience" here.

Yet, NO ONE I know is comfortable when innocent lives are taken, however rare a school shooting situation might be. So what can be done?

Ok for starters in terms of common sense gun control why can't we pass a universal background check? Something that applies to private sales as well as gun shows and dealers??

As an owner would you want to know that if you where selling your gun to someone that they have a clean criminal history? That you arn't unknowingly selling your gun to someone with 6 domestic violence convictions so they can go home and shoot their spouse for their dinner being too cold?

I don't agree with it but I get why they want to protect high powered semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15. They are I can attest, fun to shoot. But why oppose universal background checks? I can not understand why the NRA and Republicans fight universal background checks tooth and nail.

 

[stout1]

Basically there are fewer gun owning households but those who do have guns are keeping multiple weapons. The average gun owner has 8 weapons. I think this stat is skewed pretty significantly by collectors.

I think it is also skewed by people under reporting the numbers of guns they actually own.

 

[SoFla-Hawkeye]

here is the deal, you guys don't blame the AAA for illegal street drag racing and car deaths

Could you please post a link to the AAA claiming the government is coming after my cars? I'd like to read up on that. TIA. Also, while you are at it, would you post a link to the AAA telling me I need to buy more cars. Again, TIA.

 

[IsaacHarrison]

Ok for starters in terms of common sense gun control why can't we pass a universal background check? Something that applies to private sales as well as gun shows and dealers??

As an owner would you want to know that if you where selling your gun to someone that they have a clean criminal history? That you arn't unknowingly selling your gun to someone with 6 domestic violence convictions so they can go home and shoot their spouse for their dinner being too cold?

I don't agree with it but I get why they want to protect high powered semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15. They are I can attest, fun to shoot. But why oppose universal background checks? I can not understand why the NRA and Republicans fight universal background checks tooth and nail.

I agree. However, most drugs are illegal too and we know how easy kids can get those.

 

[Joes Place]

I do not understand Republicans resistance to real, common sense gun legislation.

When you come to the realization that the GOP position is not in support of gun owners, but rather gun manufacturers and gun sellers, this becomes fairly obvious.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Could you please post a link to the AAA claiming the government is coming after my cars? I'd like to read up on that. TIA. Also, while you are at it, would you post a link to the AAA telling me I need to buy more cars. Again, TIA.

could you post a link where the government is NOT coming after guns? at least the liberal government. and a link where the second amendment limits how many guns we can own? TIA. oh, and BTW, the AAA sells car insurance. they make more- with more cars owned. I guarantee they want you to own more cars.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

When you come to the realization that the GOP position is not in support of gun owners, but rather gun manufacturers and gun sellers, this becomes fairly obvious.

I do support those people. because I'm into capitalism.

 

[dandh]

I'm probably more on your side but would like to hear more.. I think a good starting point is..

Is there anyone on here opposed to stricter back grounds checks and the banning of assault rifles such as the AR-15? Could we keep those guns locked up at shooting ranges so they are available for people to still use in a controlled environment? I'll admit I'm not a gun enthusiast so I dont know all the angles of why people think we need those.

I think the problem is fourfold with banning "the AR-15 type". First, it's a very popular gun - over 2 million out there, maybe 3 million by now. And it can be a good self-defense weapon in the right situation. Is it really practical to make that many gun owners instant criminals?

Second, and more important imo, is that along with the AR-15 come a lot of other "similar" guns: semi-automatic, hold more than 10 rounds, etc. And this includes guns such as the one I used to use to hunt rabbit and squirrel. A 15-shot tube-fed semi-auto .22 rifle. Most of the legislation I've seen banning "assault rifle would include this gun. When I raised a question on here about gun types to ban using common sense, several thought my .22 was dangerous enough to be banned. So we also criminalize me (and thousands - maybe millions of others) owning a .22 used for hunting or plinking.

Third, and most important, is that the assault weapon ban doesn't do much to fix the situation. Over 60% of mass shootings occur using a handgun, not a rifle or shotgun of any sort. The remainder also have other types of weapons used, such as the shotgun and revolver used in the Santa Fe, Texas. I also think that if we ban one type, people will just use another. I see the problem as much bigger than type of gun. In fact, it might be the least effective thing we could do to really change the situation.

Finally, it might be unconstitutional to ban a gun of this type. I'm not saying I absolutely know that it is, but I'm sure it will be challenged if it's tried. It does not seem to me that the mess around that will keep people any safer, either.

 

[SoDakHawk]

I'm probably more on your side but would like to hear more.. I think a good starting point is..

Is there anyone on here opposed to stricter back grounds checks and the banning of assault rifles such as the AR-15? Could we keep those guns locked up at shooting ranges so they are available for people to still use in a controlled environment? I'll admit I'm not a gun enthusiast so I dont know all the angles of why people think we need those.

The AR-15. I don't want to derail this thread because it has been a good discussion thus far, but need to point out that semi-automatic rifles have been around since the 60's, I mean, the Marlin Model 60 has been around since, literally, 1960. You can dress these guns up all you want, wood stock so it looks like a "hunting rifle", or carbon stock with all the attachments to make the gun look like an "assault rifle", but in the end, functionally they are the same. So when people talk about banning semi-automatic "assault rifles" they are also talking about banning a .22 plinking rifle.

I point this out because these discussions always seem to go back to the guns, specifically the scary AR-15. The reality is that semi-automatic rifles have been with us for a long time but school shootings are a relatively recent thing. I think focusing on guns is focusing on the wrong thing. We need to address the core issue and that is messed up kids who are so effed up they resort to the mass killing of people.

 

[Joes Place]

Ok for starters in terms of common sense gun control why can't we pass a universal background check? Something that applies to private sales as well as gun shows and dealers??

And why can we NOT have an online, realtime database of gun ownership and sales?

It is currently in mimeograph triplicate forms, stored in random boxes and backlogged by a decade or more.

The NRA has explicitly forbidden this type of database from existing, with the laws they will allow to be passed. (It's really "Congress" forbidding it, but at the bidding of the NRA lobby)

We have such realtime databases for cars, for houses, for stocks.....literally EVERYTHING ELSE. Not guns.

We likewise have no formal 'safety manufacturing standards' for guns, like the 'hair triggers' on certain models which can accidentally fire. We have safety standards like this for everything else. Not guns.

We also have safety standards for cars in the form of speed limits, stop signs, lights, weight restrictions, etc. But any regulation on muzzle velocities, magazine limits, etc combinations to keep 'assault-like' weapons out of the hands of people? Nope. Not guns.

 

[Joes Place]

The AR-15. I don't want to derail this thread because it has been a good discussion thus far, but need to point out that semi-automatic rifles have been around since the 60's, I mean, the Marlin Model 60 has been around since, literally, 1960. You can dress these guns up all you want, wood stock so it looks like a "hunting rifle", or carbon stock with all the attachments to make the gun look like an "assault rifle", but in the end, functionally they are the same. So when people talk about banning semi-automatic "assault rifles" they are also talking about banning a .22 plinking rifle.

I point this out because these discussions always seem to go back to the guns, specifically the scary AR-15. The reality is that semi-automatic rifles have been with us for a long time but school shootings are a relatively recent thing. I think focusing on guns is focusing on the wrong thing. We need to address the core issue and that is messed up kids who are so effed up they resort to the mass killing of people.

 

[The_Joker13]

And why can we NOT have an online, realtime database of gun ownership and sales?

It is currently in mimeograph triplicate forms, stored in random boxes and backlogged by a decade or more.

The NRA has explicitly forbidden this type of database from existing, with the laws they will allow to be passed. (It's really "Congress" forbidding it, but at the bidding of the NRA lobby)

We have such realtime databases for cars, for houses, for stocks.....literally EVERYTHING ELSE. Not guns.

We likewise have no formal 'safety manufacturing standards' for guns, like the 'hair triggers' on certain models which can accidentally fire. We have safety standards like this for everything else. Not guns.

We also have safety standards for cars in the form of speed limits, stop signs, lights, weight restrictions, etc. But any regulation on muzzle velocities, magazine limits, etc combinations to keep 'assault-like' weapons out of the hands of people? Nope. Not guns.

What would a database have done to prevent this most recent shooting?

 

[SoDakHawk]

I see this discussion is over. I post about how we need to fix a broken society and this is the result.

 

[srams21]

We need to address the core issue and that is messed up kids who are so effed up they resort to the mass killing of people.

Which means we need more funding for mental health and stricter background checks to screen for mental health issues.

The GOP has been against these measures to my understanding.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I agree. However, most drugs are illegal too and we know how easy kids can get those.

That doesn't excuse making it easy!!!!

 

[The_Joker13]

Which means we need more funding for mental health and stricter background checks to screen for mental health issues.

The GOP has been against these measures to my understanding.

Mental health is a big problem, I completely agree with this. I don’t know what the solution is, but we need to start there imo.

 

[GobysHawk]

Since this country was started every concession on guns have been given by gun owners. When the anti gunners start giving concessions we'll talk.

 

[Joes Place]

What would a database have done to prevent this most recent shooting?

It's a multi-pronged approach.
Let's start with the easy stuff, like tracking ownership. And when people have kids who are acting oddly, authorities can warn them to keep their weapons locked up, away from the kids or face life in prison if/when the kids get those weapons and shoot someone.

Gun ownership is a responsibility, and keeping those guns away from irresponsible people should be an expectation from the rest of society....I know some kids at Sandy Hook who might be alive today IF a certain woman had been required to keep her weapons away from an unstable child or face having them confiscated....

 

[The_Joker13]

It's a multi-pronged approach.
Let's start with the easy stuff, like tracking ownership. And when people have kids who are acting oddly, authorities can warn them to keep their weapons locked up, away from the kids or face life in prison if/when the kids get those weapons and shoot someone.

Gun ownership is a responsibility, and keeping those guns away from irresponsible people should be an expectation from the rest of society....I know some kids at Sandy Hook who might be alive today IF a certain woman had been required to keep her weapons away from an unstable child or face having them confiscated....

In other words, absolutely nothing. Unless you think we are at a place where we can lock a kid up for “acting oddly”, and to lock someone up for life because thier kid goes looney tunes is dumb AF.

 

[Joes Place]

In other words, absolutely nothing. Unless you think we are at a place where we can lock a kid up for “acting oddly”, and to lock someone up for life because thier kid goes looney tunes is dumb AF.

If they allowed a minor access to guns un-monitored, that's a pretty solid deterrent to someone doing it....

We restrict rights to driving when someone drives drunk, loses a license, repeatedly. All kinds of regs there.

But God forbid, we put any "regulations" on gun ownership, despite the 2A using that word explicitly, indicating that "regulation" is fully Constitutional.

 

[BelemNole]

Yeah, there are certainly more guns.

 

[Joes Place]

Yeah, there are certainly more guns.

Can't see the problem here...